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Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji - Part 1 - ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ

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Fantastic. Keep it up.

Thanks.
There are many shabads like this. Some are translated incorrectly, some are translated fine but interpreted incorrectly and others are interpreted incorrectly due to other shabads being translated/interpreted incorrectly.

Like a domino effect.

Will try to definitively sort out the mess, one by one.

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Would it be true to say that the misinterpreted verses are often in regards to shabads that talk about other faiths? I've noticed for instance that many AKJ'ers interpret the "Ved Kateb Kaho Mat Jhuthe" as "Say the paths of the vedas and katebas are false" - and not as it is often translated "do not say that the vedas and katebas are false".

 

 

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Would it be true to say that the misinterpreted verses are often in regards to shabads that talk about other faiths? I've noticed for instance that many AKJ'ers interpret the "Ved Kateb Kaho Mat Jhuthe" as "Say the paths of the vedas and katebas are false" - and not as it is often translated "do not say that the vedas and katebas are false".

 

 

Yes just like the anti brahmans talk ..kshatriyan ko poot houn baahman ko naahi..the next line is Kaiy Tapp Aavat Hon Jo Karon - I am son of Khatri and not of Brahman who does 'Tapp'

Does Maharaj criticize the brahman ? No. Maharaj is simply saying i am a son of a warrior not of brahman who would do penance..is Maharaj criticizing penance ? No. Maharaj is pointing out his karma. But see how it is used to curse brahmans .

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Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji  - Part 1

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ੧੯੦
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮੈ ਰਾਮ ਕਹੁ ਕਹਿਬੇ ਮਾਹਿ ਬਿਬੇਕ
कबीर रामै राम कहु कहिबे माहि बिबेक ॥
Kabīr rāmai rām kaho kahibe māhi bibek.
Kabeer, use the word 'Raam', only to speak of the All-pervading Lord. You must make that distinction.

ਏਕੁ ਅਨੇਕਹਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਗਇਆ ਏਕ ਸਮਾਨਾ ਏਕ ੧੯੧
एकु अनेकहि मिलि गइआ एक समाना एक ॥१९१॥
Ėk anekėh mil ga▫i▫ā ek samānā ek. ||191||
One 'Raam' is pervading everywhere, while the other is contained only in himself. ||191||

 

 

Bro, can you please tell us the uthanka of this shabad?

Thanks a lot.

Bhul chuk maaf

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Would it be true to say that the misinterpreted verses are often in regards to shabads that talk about other faiths? I've noticed for instance that many AKJ'ers interpret the "Ved Kateb Kaho Mat Jhuthe" as "Say the paths of the vedas and katebas are false" - and not as it is often translated "do not say that the vedas and katebas are false".

Yes and what is perceived to be a different faith. My next one was going to be "hindu anna turk kana", the author is critizing his own group of people here not people of a different faith.

Like Jaikaara gave an example of the verses used to malign Brahmins. Those guys are talking about their own people. Or talking very neutrally. But it is twisted to mean something else entirely.

Another example, the gurus actually speak favourably of the Vedas, Puranas, Bhagwad Gita etc. However people today use verses to misrepresent that.

The same goes for Ram Chandra ji also. He will be my major theme to begin with. He is perhaps the most misunderstood even amongst open-minded sikhs, and it is due to botched translations like the one above.

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Please do one on the "hindu anna turk kana" - or as it goes today ""hindu anna turk kana sikh siana".

In above quote, updesh is universal  gyani /bhramgyani who is not confined in labels and  realized his/her true Saroop regardless of dharm is siyana. 

Edited by N30 S!NGH

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Would it be true to say that the misinterpreted verses are often in regards to shabads that talk about other faiths? I've noticed for instance that many AKJ'ers interpret the "Ved Kateb Kaho Mat Jhuthe" as "Say the paths of the vedas and katebas are false" - and not as it is often translated "do not say that the vedas and katebas are false".

 

 

There is a possibility bro, that both the meanings you mentioned above, are right.

"do not say that the vedas and katebas are false" - They are not false, in their original form.

"Say the paths of the vedas and katebas are false" - They might not be completely true either, in their current form. It is fact that Bible and Quran were written many years after Jesus jee and Muhammad jee.

Anyways, let's stay on topic.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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Regarding the Vedas , Baba Ishar Singh Ji said they are not false, they tell about the disease but do not provide the medicine.

The medicine for Ego/ Haumai is only present in Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj.

Sri guru granth sahib ji has many mahavaks/gyan shaloks of ekta of jiva and bhram which needs to contemplated but with that being said- Vedas/upanishads also have mahavaks of ekta of jiv and bhram, they have gyan slokas as well. Please see two very interesting threads below from japji sahib teeka on gurmat position on vedas by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/15768-gurbani-position-on-vedas-beautifully-explained-by-sant-gyani-gurbachan-singh-khalsa-bhindranwale/

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/15795-~~deep-gnosis-behind-mahavak-in-gurbani~/ 

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Pandit Narayan Singh ji would listen to katha of both vedas & SGGS.  When listening to katha of vedas, he would sit at the same level as the kathavachak, When listening to Katha of Guru Granth Sahib , he would sit lower. People asked him how come ? This incident was narrated by Baba Ishar Singh Ji in his Bachans. "...they tell about the disease but do not provide the medicine. The medicine for Ego/ Haumai is only present in Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj. "

Singho, have more shardha for your Guru than vedas, and have more shardha in Guru Nanak than Sri Rama Chandra jee :)

Lets not talk like brahmgyanis and start seeing Brahm in everyone everywhere when we have not even reached that state yet. We are still in Upashana phase.

A faithful wife has only one Husband, our Husband is Guru Nanak & Guru Nanak alone..and Guru Granth Sahib .

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Singho, have more shardha for your Guru than vedas, and have more shardha in Guru Nanak than Sri Rama Chandra jee :)

Lets not talk like brahmgyanis and start seeing Brahm in everyone everywhere when we have not even reached that state yet. We are still in Upashana phase.

Excellent points paaji.

It is very easy to talk like Brahamgyanis (for people like me), but very hard to walk the talk.

Bhul chuk maaf

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You are talking from sargun bhagti perspective which is fine as bhakti is integral part of Sikhi but nirgun gyan such as mahavak in gurbani is also integral part of Sikhi as well as they both go hand in hand two wings of sikh. As sakhi of Baba Buddha Ji being described as mukh bhagti hirde gyan. 

 

Gurmat is bhakti gyan samoocha vad. 

Bro, which sakhi is that? Can you please provide details?

Bhul chuk maaf

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Sri guru granth sahib ji has many mahavaks/gyan shaloks of ekta of jiva and bhram which needs to contemplated but with that being said- Vedas/upanishads also have mahavaks of ekta of jiv and bhram, they have gyan slokas as well. Please see two very interesting threads below from japji sahib teeka on gurmat position on vedas by sant gyani gurbachan singh bhindranwale:

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/15768-gurbani-position-on-vedas-beautifully-explained-by-sant-gyani-gurbachan-singh-khalsa-bhindranwale/

http://www.sikhawareness.com/topic/15795-~~deep-gnosis-behind-mahavak-in-gurbani~/ 

Bro, Vedas must be respected by all Sikhs. There is no doubt about that, but they cannot be put on the same level, as Gurbani.

1. Vedas don't talk about Prema Bhagtee (devotion based on love)

ਭਾਉ ਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਬੇਦਿ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੜ੍ਹਿ ਪੇਖੈ।

Bhaau N Brahamai Likhiaa Chaari Bayd Sinmriti Parhhi Paykhai.

भाउ न ब्रहमै लिखिआ चारि बेद सिंम्रिति पड़्हि पेखै ।

Having gone through the Vedas and simritis one finds that Brhama also has nowhere written about the Sentiment of love.

3 ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੧ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੫ ਪੰ. ੩ [1]

[1] - http://searchgurbani.com/bhai_gurdas_vaaran/vaar/1/pauri/25

 

2. Vedas (most of it) do not talk about the fourth state of mind (Turiya pad), while Gurbani is written from the perspective of Turiya pad.

ਚਾਰੇ ਬੇਦ ਕਥਹਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

The four Vedas speak only of the visible forms.

ਤੀਨਿ ਅਵਸਥਾ ਕਹਹਿ ਵਖਿਆਨੁ ॥

They describe and explain the three states of mind,

ਤੁਰੀਆਵਸਥਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਤੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਾਨੁ ॥੧

but the fourth state, union with the Lord, is known only through the True Guru. ||1||

 

ਵੇਦੁ ਪੁਕਾਰੈ ਤ੍ਰਿਬਿਧਿ ਮਾਇਆ 

The Vedas proclaim that Maya is of three qualities.

 
Bhul chuk maaf
 

 

 

Edited by paapiman

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I never mentioned that we should put vedas same level as gurbani, please read my post again. We were talking about mahavaks in gurbani and also in vedas..I have same position as sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale on gurbani on vedas, please see the thread below:

  

 

Edited by N30 S!NGH

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I never mentioned that we should put vedas same level as gurbani, please read my post again. We were talking about mahavaks in gurbani and also in vedas..I have same position as sant gurbachan singh bhindranwale on gurbani on vedas, please see the thread below:

Never said you did bro. Will go through the threads, if Daas gets time. Thanks for them.

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman

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Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji  - Part 1

ਕਬੀਰ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਨ ਮਹਿ ਭੇਦੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਮਹਿ ਏਕੁ ਬਿਚਾਰੁ
कबीर राम कहन महि भेदु है ता महि एकु बिचारु ॥
Kabīr rām kahan mėh bẖeḏ hai ṯā mėh ek bicẖār.
Kabeer, it does make a difference, how you chant the Lord's Name, 'Raam'. This is something to consider.

ਸੋਈ ਰਾਮੁ ਸਭੈ ਕਹਹਿ ਸੋਈ ਕਉਤਕਹਾਰ ੧੯੦
सोई रामु सभै कहहि सोई कउतकहार ॥१९०॥
So▫ī rām sabẖai kahėh so▫ī ka▫uṯakhār. ||190||
Everyone uses the same word for the son of Dasrath and the Wondrous Lord. ||190||

Bro, can you please let us know, who has done the above translation? What was the translation, done by Prof.Sahib Singh jee?

Bhul chuk maaf

 

Edited by paapiman

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Uthanka of the above shabad, is as follows:

Bhul chuk maaf

Bro, can you please tell us the uthanka of this shabad?

Thanks a lot.

Bhul chuk maaf

Ah Uthanka galat hai. He ignored the key word Kautakahar.

I explained the uthanka 3 times in the opening post.

How can you miss it?

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Ah Uthanka galat hai. He ignored the key word Kautakahar.

I explained the uthanka 3 times in the opening post.

How can you miss it?

Paaji, sometimes the same shabad can have multiple uthankas.

Bhul chuk maaf

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