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Nihangs and Fish


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On 8/29/2015, 5:31:09, paapiman said:

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥

Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩

- no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

If a person feels that Bhagat jee is only talking about ritual meat or not talking about meat at all in the above verses, he/she should examine other verses of Shromani Bhagat Baba Kabeer jee Maharaaj. Some people might be aware that there are verses of Bhagat Kabeer jee, which are not incorporated into Gurbani. These verses are potential tools to understand Bhagat jee's point of view.

Please have a look below:

 

कबीर-माँस भखै औ मद पिये, धन वेश्या सों खाय।
जुआ खेलि चोरी करै, अंत समूला जाय।।5।।

 

Those who consume meat and drink alcohol, that female who practices prostitution and those who make a prostitute do business and earn money from her, those who gamble, those who commit theft and do not listen when told, they incur heinous sin and will fall in deep hell (5)

 

कबीर-पापी पूजा बैठिकै, भखै माँस मद दोइ।
तिनकी दीक्षा मुक्ति नहिं, कोटि नरक फल होइ।।10।।

 

Those who take initiation from Gurus which consume meat and alcohol never achieve salvation, instead are destined to deep hell. (10)

 

कबीर-माँस अहारी मानई, प्रत्यक्ष राक्षस जानि।
ताकी संगति मति करै, होइ भक्ति में हानि।।1।।

कबीर-माँस खांय ते ढेड़ सब, मद पीवैं सो नीच।
कुलकी दुरमति पर हरै, राम कहै सो ऊंच।।2।।

 

Kabir Sahib is saying that those who consume meat and drink alcohol, even after listening to satsang (discourse), do not relinquish evil deeds and don't take initiation, consider them clearly to be demons. Unknowingly anyone can commit a mistake. If someone after listening to satsang abandons the evil deeds and starts worshipping the God, then he is a noble soul irrespective of the religion. Those who do not stop eating meat and drinking alcohol and do not worship the God are low irrespective of what ever religion they may belong to. The meaning is that those who do noble deeds are noble and those doing low deeds are low. Those who remain in the company of low people cause harm to their worship.(1-2)

 

There are more verses too. Please have a look below:

http://www.supremeknowledge.org/kabir-vani-vegetarian.php

 

It should be crystal clear from the above that Bhagat jee was staunchly against meat eating.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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Maskeen Sahib has provided historical evidence from Sri Panth Prakash. There is counter historical evidence present, against meat eating too.

If we keep historical sources aside, is there any Gurbani verse which explicitly permits meat eating? 

If the Shabad "Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jagray" is used to justify meat eating, then one can even rationalize cannibalism using the very same Shabad. Satguru jee proved in that shabad that there is no difference between a vegetable, animal and a human. We are all Meat (Maas). Does that mean, we can break Maryada?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited by paapiman
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It depends on what the maas maas ka murakh jhagrey tuk really means to you.


ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom

To some it is more about justifying the meat or not, whereas for some of us it may be about "ghian dian".

Talking from experience and from being an all round, everyday meat eater, the shabad is more about the meditation and spiritual wisdom. As one starts to get serious on the meditation path, then the automatic and intuitive understanding makes you realise that the "taste" of the tongue is of little importance. From my own experience and without any discipline and controlling,.. I automatically shifted away from desires of any meat products or even processed veggie junk,.. towards more natural, fresh fruit and raw veg.      At this stage in my life, the shabad is more about desires and "taste of the tongue".....These are of very little significance compared to the desire for naam amrit.

 

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Good point by Lucky paaji. The shabad "Maas Maas Kar Moorakh Jagray" is talking about Brahamgyan, desires, taste of tongue, exposing hypocrisy, time management, imprudence, relationships, bondage to flesh, sins, conception process, etc. This shabad has been wrongfully used to legitimize the sin of meat eating.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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  • 3 weeks later...
  • 1 year later...
  • 11 months later...

Found this sakhi on Sikh Sangat forum. If being a fish (in the previous life) can lead to sinful activities, then it is very much possible that eating fish (in this life) will also lead to sinful activities.

Quote

He gave an example of a sadhu who had never done any karam of kaam in his life. In his old age however he went astray and started sleeping with prostitutes. After seeking help on the issue from another sadhu he looked back at his karam and saw that he had been a fish in his last life. This is what was bringing up his bad behaviour.  

Kartoot pasu ki manas jaat...

Meaning a person having the behaviours of an animal.

He then had to increase his prayer or change it and then managed to defeat his mind.

Unquote

Thanks to @sikhni777

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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9 hours ago, paapiman said:

Fish is also considered to be a very bad ਜੂਨ. It makes complete sense that it has been explicitly prohibited in Gurbani. Please listen to Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale (for the first minute).

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

You've got a sophisticated written source that dates to at least the early 1800s (if not earlier) in the Prem Sumarag that explicitly goes into detail about eating fish. What do you make of this? 

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On 11/30/2015 at 9:24 PM, Lucky said:

It depends on what the maas maas ka murakh jhagrey tuk really means to you.


ਮਾਸੁ ਮਾਸੁ ਕਰਿ ਮੂਰਖੁ ਝਗੜੇ ਗਿਆਨੁ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਜਾਣੈ ॥
Mās mās kar mūrakẖ jẖagṛe gi▫ān ḏẖi▫ān nahī jāṇai.

The fools argue about flesh and meat, but they know nothing about meditation and spiritual wisdom

To some it is more about justifying the meat or not, whereas for some of us it may be about "ghian dian".

Talking from experience and from being an all round, everyday meat eater, the shabad is more about the meditation and spiritual wisdom. As one starts to get serious on the meditation path, then the automatic and intuitive understanding makes you realise that the "taste" of the tongue is of little importance. From my own experience and without any discipline and controlling,.. I automatically shifted away from desires of any meat products or even processed veggie junk,.. towards more natural, fresh fruit and raw veg.      At this stage in my life, the shabad is more about desires and "taste of the tongue".....These are of very little significance compared to the desire for naam amrit.

 

Bhaji I am glad you hear you moved away from meat naturally.


Kabir ji says -
ਜੀਅ ਬਧਹੁ ਸੁ ਧਰਮੁ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਅਧਰਮੁ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਤ ਭਾਈ ॥
ਆਪਸ ਕਉ ਮੁਨਿਵਰ ਕਰਿ ਥਾਪਹੁ ਕਾ ਕਉ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਸਾਈ ॥੨॥
If killing animals is righteous then what is unrighteous action? (killing animals is wrong.)

If you call yourself a priest for having killed an animal, then who do you call a butcher? (you are butcher not a priest.)

It's gotten much worse since the time of Kabir ji.

Had Kabir ji been alive today, he would have picked arms against the mass suffering that we inflict on billions of animals.

 

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12 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

You've got a sophisticated written source that dates to at least the early 1800s (if not earlier) in the Prem Sumarag that explicitly goes into detail about eating fish. What do you make of this? 

Daas has not studied Prem Sumarag granth in details. Gurparsaad, will get back to you on this issue.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 6/26/2018 at 8:49 AM, paapiman said:

Daas has not studied Prem Sumarag granth in details. Gurparsaad, will get back to you on this issue.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I stuck the relevant section (in Panjabi) on this thread. Read it bro. 

 

You've got a very simplistic tendency to look at things in a binary (black and white) fashion - you'll only get horsehit, peasant  'Sikhism' that way - never Sikhi. 

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On 6/26/2018 at 5:21 PM, dalsingh101 said:

You've got a very simplistic tendency to look at things in a binary (black and white) fashion

It all depends on the quality and quantity of evidence. We will have to collect all the evidence (scriptural, historical, scientific, etc), analyze it and then come up with an explanation to support an injunction. If the evidence is tilted toward the binary "0", then so be it. That doesn't mean that binary "1" does not have its benefits or that nothing can exist between the "0" and the "1".

If the pros of an activity outweigh the cons, then permit it, otherwise prohibit it. This keeps it simple and avoids confusion.

In the case of eating fish, there is stronger evidence (in the form of Gurbani) against its consumption. The word "fish" is used explicitly in a verse.

Obviously, some situations in real life are not very simple (black or white). In those cases, one must consult a Saint or Panj Pyare or an expert for an advice/solution.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Quote

This keeps it simple and avoids confusion.

Do some paats of Akal Ustat and see if you think we were meant to see the world in simple terms afterwards bro. 

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  • 4 weeks later...
1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Fish meat has also been explicitly prohibited in one of the Sikh codes of conduct (Bhai Desa Singh Rehatnama).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

And in other rehats like Prem Sumarag - it is not. 

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19 hours ago, paapiman said:

Have you come across any other extant document(s) which mentions about Sikhs consuming fish meat?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

18 hours ago, amardeep said:

Two hukamname from Guru Hargobind to the Benares Sangat forbid fish.  

 

It's hardly like the surviving rehats are unanimous on the topic of meat/fish consumption. Jhatka has clearly been done for a long time. Hunting wild boar seems to have been standard Sikh warrior training (as well as for food provision).

Are people suggesting that consuming jhatka'd goats was permissible but eating fish was not? 

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9 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Are people suggesting that consuming jhatka'd goats was permissible but eating fish was not? 

According to Bhai Desa Singh Rehatnama, all meat is forbidden except that of a goat (killed by a single blow).

Logically speaking, the injunction against fish eating makes sense, as it is very hard to kill a fish with a single blow. The fish dies a miserable death, after suffering so much pain and agony. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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41 minutes ago, paapiman said:

According to Bhai Desa Singh Rehatnama, all meat is forbidden except that of a goat (killed by a single blow).

Logically speaking, the injunction against fish eating makes sense, as it is very hard to kill a fish with a single blow. The fish dies a miserable death, after suffering so much pain and agony. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I've seen fishermen whack the fish on the head/brain to kill it. So it can be killed with a single blow. 

Then we have to talk about the nature of rehats They were interpretations of Sikh conduct by individuals or groups. That's why you get the variance. 

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