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Botched Translations of Guru Granth Sahib ji Part 2 - ਹਿੰਦੂ ਅੰਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਾ ਤੁਰਕੂ ਕਾਣਾ


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4 hours ago, paapiman said:

Arths by Srimaan Gyani Kirpal Singh jee:

 

Paapiman, this one is close.

It's not that Indian families, in 1200s during Nam Dev ji time, have different family members with different beliefs... because you can have different family members with different religions, and each one can be enlightened. For Nam Dev ji it's not an issue whether family members each have their own religion or not.

Even with different religions each family member, if they go deep into the religion, can become enlightened or become a gyani as Nam Dev ji says. 

If you look at the families of the Gurus, different family members followed different religions, and we think of Gurus as enlightened. So having different family members practice different religions is actually not a problem.

For Nam Dev ji, the issue is the same person having multiple religions meaning they have no religion.

Because when you are dabbling in multiple faiths, you don't get the full "benefit" of any faith. In order for a basketball player to become pro, he has to stick to basketball and go deep into it. Somebody who plays basketball and soccer and badminton and volleyball and golf and hockey and cricket, etc is never going to become pro at any of those games. 

Requirements to be pro -
1st eye is picking a sport and sticking to it
2nd eye is becoming really good at playing that sport

Somebody who has both eyes is a pro.

So Nam Dev ji when he is speaking to this scholar, finds out that this scholar is dabbling in all these religions without really experiencing one fully. This scholar has not committed himself to one discipline that he maintains and becomes better at. He is playing basketball (Gaytri) and soccer (Mahadev) and badminton (Ram) and so forth, all these sports, thus he can never become pro at any of them in his life.

Requirements to be gyani-
1st eye is picking a religion/spiritual discipline/tradition/sampardya /spiritual path and sticking to it
2nd eye is becoming really good at the spiritual and religious practices, develop deeper knowledge and pass life tests that come with that particular path

Somebody who has both 1 and 2 is a gyani

 

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ਆਜੁ ਨਾਮੇ ਬੀਠਲੁ ਦੇਖਿਆ ਮੂਰਖ ਕੋ ਸਮਝਾਊ ਰੇ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
आजु नामे बीठलु देखिआ मूरख को समझाऊ रे ॥ रहाउ ॥
Āj nāme bīṯẖal ḏekẖi▫ā mūrakẖ ko samjẖā▫ū re. Rahā▫o.

Today, I, Namay, saw Vitthala, (another name of omni-present pure consciousness), and I will explain to those who haven't seen him.

 

ਬੀਠਲੁ - Vitthal

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vithoba

Vithoba, also known as Vitthal (Vi(t)thal(a)) and Panduranga, is a Hindu god predominantly worshipped in the Indian states of Maharashtra, Karnataka, Goa, Telangana and Andhra Pradesh. He is generally considered a manifestation of the god Vishnu or his avatar, Krishna.

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Namdev, also transliterated as Namdeo and Namadeva, (traditionally, c. 1270 – c. 1350) was a poet-saint from Maharashtra, India who is significant to the Varkari sect of Hinduism. He is also venerated in Sikhism, as well as Hindu warrior-ascetic traditions such as the Dadupanthis and the Niranjani Sampraday that emerged in north India during the Islamic rule.

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Namdev (c. 1270–1350), a Shudra tailor, wrote short Marathi devotional poems in praise of Vithoba called abhangas (literally 'unbroken'), and used the call-and-response kirtan (literally 'repeating') form of singing to praise the glory of his Lord.

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the 13th century, the poet-saints like Namdev, Eknath and Tukaram identified Vithoba with Vishnu.[11]

All these poet-saints, and others like Janabai, the maidservant of Namdev, wrote poetry dedicated to Vithoba.

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A text called "Tirthavali-Gatha", attributed to Namdev or Dnyaneshwar but possibly a collection of writings of many poet-saints, also centers on the propagation of Varkari faith and Vithoba worship.[19][85] Other devotional works include aratis like "Yuge atthavisa vitevari ubha" by Namdev and "Yei O Vitthala maje mauli re". These aratis sing of Vithoba, who wears yellow garments (a characteristic of Vishnu) and is served by Garuda (mount of Vishnu) and Hanuman (the monkey god, devotee of Rama—an avatar of Vishnu).

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ਬੀਠਲੁ 

 

Origin

The word "ਬੀਠ" means a brick. There was a devotee of the Almighty Lord, Waheguru, in the state of Maharashtra. He had darshan of the Lord. He did not have any cushion to offer, so he offered a brick as a cushion to the Lord. From then onward, this word became one of the names of the Lord.

 

Deeper meaning

ਬੀ - Creator

ਠ - Sustainer

ਲੁ - Destroyer

ਬੀਠਲੁ  - referring to the Almighty Lord, Waheguru, who can performs all the above three functions.

 

Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

 

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11 hours ago, paapiman said:

ਬੀਠਲੁ  - referring to the Almighty Lord, Waheguru, who can performs all the above three functions

Yes that is what Vitthal is. That's what it means to say that Vitthal is an incarnation of Vishnu. Vishnu is one who is manifested in all beings, he creates them, preserves them and destroys them. So by association Vitthal is also the creator preserver and destroyer... is what you are calling Waheguru.

Vishnu created the world, Maya, to which atma becomes attached. That's why spiritual people practice this - "Bishan ki maya te hoya bhin".

 

Read the shabads by all the Kavi in Guru Granth Sahib where they talk about Gurus being an incarnation of Vishnu, and in response, they exclaim "Wah Guru!"

Read the Vaar by Bhai Gur Das where he talks about the meaning of Waheguru mantar. He gets that from the Kavis. Bhai Gurdas ji says that Waheguru mantar is composed of VHGR, Vishnu - V, Hari - H, G - Govind, R - Ram. These are all names of Vishnu. Hari and Ram are most commonly used.

Hopefully things will start to make more sense as you read the bani of the all the Kavi and Bhai Gurdas.

 

10 hours ago, paapiman said:

Paaji, can you please state the meaning of the word "Vayharak" (which is used by Gyani Kirpal Singh jee)?

It means spiritual practice or dharam in this case. (look up - ਵਿਹਾਰ)

That first sentence in his arth is correct but the rest of it is wrong.

He hasn't studied the scriptures so he is writing what he thinks is the issue with Hindus. He should have studied a bit of Vishnu Puran, Bhaagvat Puran, Gita, etc then he would have known that Gaytri, Mahadev and Ram are all referring to Waheguru. Then he would have known that Nam Dev ji who worships Ram, is testing to see whether the pandit knows this and whether he is strict to one these religions and able to defend it.


A lot of these scholars are repeating what the other has said. It is kind of sad to see.

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Bro there is no longer any reason for you to be ignorant about this. Read any of the scriptures I mentioned. There are English translations available online.

Bhaagvat Puran http://bhagavata.org/

Bhagawad Gita http://www.bhagavad-gita.org/Gita/verse-01-07.html

Valmiki Ramayan - http://valmikiramayan.net/

Vishnu Sashasarnama - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq2-EpO26Gk

Below is from Vishnu Sahasarnama, translation from valmikiramayan.net

Quote

 

The verse below is recited at the beginning of any auspicious task. It invokes the all pervading God.

shuklaambaradharam vishhNum shashi varNam caturbhujam |
prasanna vadanam dhyaayet sarvavighnopashaantaye ||

"The One Who is adorned with a white garment, Who is All-Pervading, Who is bright as a full moon, Who has four arms, and Who has a pleasant smiling face, may be meditated upon to extinguish all obstacles."
 
 
 

aapadaam apahartaaram daataaram sarvasaMpadaam.h |
lokaabhiraamam shriiraamam bhuuyo bhuuyo namaamyaham.h ||

"I bow again and again to Sri Rama Who removes (all) obstacles, grants all wealth and pleases all."

 



 

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Vithoba (Marathi: विठोबा, Viṭhobā) is known by many names, including: Vitthala, Panduranga, Pandharinath, Hari and Narayan. There are several theories about the origins and meanings of these names. Varkari tradition suggests that the name Vitthala (also spelled as Vitthal, Viththal, Vittala and Vithal; Marathi: विठ्ठल, Viṭṭhala; Kannada: ವಿಠ್ಠಲ and Telugu: విఠ్ఠల; Viṭhala) is composed of two Sanskrit-Marathi words: viṭ, which means 'brick'; and thal, which may have originated from the Sanskrit sthala, meaning 'standing'. Thus, Vitthala would mean 'one standing on a brick'.[3]William Crooke, orientalist, supported this explanation.[4]

The prescribed iconography of Vithoba stipulates that he be shown standing arms-akimbo upon a brick, which is associated with the legend of the devotee Pundalik.


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However, the Varkari poet-saint Tukaram proposed a different etymology—that Vitthala is composed of the words vittha (ignorance) and la (one who accepts), thus meaning 'one who accepts innocent people who are devoid of knowledge'.[5]

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ਵਿੱਠਲ. ਮਰਾਠੀ (ਮਹਾਰਾਸ੍ਟ੍ਰੀ) ਭਾਸਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਵਿੱਠਲ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਕੀਤਾ ਹੈ ਵਿ- (ਗ੍ਯਾਨ) ਠ (ਬਿਨਾ) ਲ (ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰ) ਜੋ ਗਿਆਨਹੀਨ (ਮਹਾਮੂਰਖਾਂ) ਨੂੰ ਅੰਗੀਕਾਰ ਕਰੇ, ਉਹ ਵਿੱਠਲ ਹੈ. ਨਾਮਦੇਵ ਜੀ ਦੀ ਮਾਤ੍ਰਿਭਾਸਾ ਦਾ ਇਹ ਸ਼ਬਦ ਉਨ੍ਹਾਂ ਦਾ ਮੂਲਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਸੀ. "ਬੀਠਲੁ ਬਿਨ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਨਹੀਂ". (ਆਸਾ ਨਾਮਦੇਵ).

Bhai Kahn Singh ji translates Vitthal as the one who approves those who are ignorant of him (after Sant Tukaram ji).

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Historian Ramakrishna Gopal Bhandarkar offers yet another possibility—that Vitthu (Viṭhu) is a Kannada corruption of the name Vishnu adopted in Marathi. The suffixes -la and -ba (meaning 'father' in Marathi) were appended for reverence, producing the names Vitthala and Vithoba.[6] This corruption of Vishnu to Vitthu could have been due to the tendency of Marathi and Kannada people to pronounce the Sanskrit ṣṇ (/ʃn/) as ṭṭh (/ʈʈʰ/), attested since the 8th century.[7]

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  • 4 weeks later...

Can Admin Please Delete the Previous Post. I accidentally posted the wrong images. Sorry About this. 

Here are the Correct images from the Steek By Tara Singh Narotam. He writes his own interpretation of the following tukh

 ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥

 

 

5695913fc4c50_BhagatBani1.thumb.png.18275695915621b89_BhagatBani2.thumb.png.60d1

Bhagat Bani 1.png

Bhagat Bani 2.png

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2 hours ago, Guest said:

Here are the Correct images from the Steek By Tara Singh Narotam. He writes his own interpretation of the following tukh

 ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥

Nice find. Although you posted the same images twice.
 

The second interpretation he gives is that this shabad is talking about nirgun upashna. I'd be interested in how he connects his conclusions to the first lines of the shabad.

IMO If you only read that one sentence, "panday tumra ram chan bhi dekheya..." then you will think it's talking about nirgun upashna.

BUT If you read the first line, "Namay ajj Vitthal dekheya..." (<- that is sargun upashna btw), then you have to read Ram Chandra in a similar manner, because Ram Chandra ji is Vitthal.  Gaytri and Mahadev are different religions, whereas Vitthal and Ram belong to the same religion. So by starting the shabad off with the name Vitthal, we know the context to "panday tumra ram chan bhi dekheya...", this is not an anti-Ram shabad.

Also if you read the concluding lines, where he is saying that often Hindus are not going deeply into one religion and that Muslims often go deeply into one religion but do not have atam gyan, then this puts the previous lines into perspective, which shows a Pandit dodging Namdev ji's criticism by changing religions on the spot.

 

Another point I want to make is that I think in Guru Granth Sahib, Sargun and Nirgun Upashana run hand-in-hand, they cannot be separated like some people try to do.

Here's an example of Nirgun and Sargun upashna conjoined together.


ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
Shri Ram Chandra ji in essence has no form or feature, being the guardian of forests, wielding a chakra, his form is absolutely beautiful.

People read and quote  ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥  and say "AHa! Look this is talking about nirgun upashna" they don't read the next line - ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥ and they don't read the rest of that shabad.

 

Here's another one -

ਨਾਮੇ ਕੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸੀਅ ਬਹੋਰੀ ਲੰਕ ਭਭੀਖਣ ਆਪਿਓ ਹੋ ॥੪॥੨॥
Namdev ji says "My Master (Ram Chandra ji) returned Sita from Lanka, and gave it's ownership to Vibhishan."

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13 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥ ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
Shri Ram Chandra ji in essence has no form or feature, being the guardian of forests, wielding a chakra, his form is absolutely beautiful.

If you look at the Uthanika of this Shabad. Sangat had asked Guru Arjan Dev Ji that Sanatan minded people have a bani call Vishnu SahnsarNama (1000 names of Vishnu) In order to appease the Sangat Guru Arjan Dev Ji Ucharand this Bani So Sikhs can have there own SahansarNama.  This Bani has both Sargun and Nirgun names, All the names given in this Bani are all parmeshwar names and no one else's. 

At the near end of the Bani Guru Ji States  ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ 

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1 hour ago, Guest said:

If you look at the Uthanika of this Shabad. Sangat had asked Guru Arjan Dev Ji that Sanatan minded people have a bani call Vishnu SahnsarNama (1000 names of Vishnu) In order to appease the Sangat Guru Arjan Dev Ji Ucharand this Bani So Sikhs can have there own SahansarNama.  This Bani has both Sargun and Nirgun names, All the names given in this Bani are all parmeshwar names and no one else's. 

At the near end of the Bani Guru Ji States  ਕਿਰਤਮ ਨਾਮ ਕਥੇ ਤੇਰੇ ਜਿਹਬਾ ॥ ਸਤਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਪਰਾ ਪੂਰਬਲਾ ॥ 

Yea that's probably true. I have read Vishnu Sahasarnama and this mirrors Vishnu Sahasarnama in theology.

But why does a sangat need to request this to be written? It's not like Guru Arjun Dev ji couldn't write this bani of his own accord. It's the same as all his other banis. There is nothing here that is theologically different from his other banis, or Guru Granth Sahib, or Vishnu Sahasarnama. It's not even a special circumstance for it to require a special explanation.

Uthanka is needed where there is a special circumstance. Adding context where there is no need to add context always seems sketchy to me. So I think a lot of these uthankas as just made up on the spot. Just to add imaginary context that is neither there nor needed.

To be fair, sangat could have just requested it.

I'm just saying it's pointless to state that, because sangat probably requested a lot of shabads. Who knows what they requested for? And how would we know for sure?

PS are you the same guest from before?

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