chatanga1 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 (edited) another thing that occured to me was that if Bhai Desa Singh is the son of Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji, there is remote chance this rehatnama could be written too late in the century. Bhai Mani Singh was born around 1660 and became shaheed in 1734. If as was suggested in another topic this rehatnama was after 1780s that would make Bhai Desa Singh possibly around 100 years old when he wrote it, or he was born very late to Bhai Mani Singh. Not saying it can't happen but seems very very unlikely.I would guess the Bhai Desa Singh is more likely to have been written in the 1730s-1750s. Not the early 1700s. I'm thinking possibly even earlier than this, based on Bhai Mani Singh's age marriage and likely time of children, but certainly no later. Edited September 16, 2015 by chatanga1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Does the rehat author claim to be Bhai Mani Singh's son in the work anywhere? Or is it another one of those 'facts'. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Does the rehat author claim to be Bhai Mani Singh's son in the work anywhere? Or is it another one of those 'facts'. Nope. All he says about himself is that his name is Desa Singh, he is a follower of Guru Gobind Singh and that he spend time at the Morali Bunga and travelling Eastern India. In the bhatt vahis the youngest son of Bhai Mani Singh is given as Bhai Desa Singh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Does the rehat author claim to be Bhai Mani Singh's son in the work anywhere? Or is it another one of those 'facts'. I don't know there's any written evidence , but traditionally Bhai Desa Singh was acknowledged as Shahed Bhai Mani Singh Ji's son. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Nope. All he says about himself is that his name is Desa Singh, he is a follower of Guru Gobind Singh and that he spend time at the Morali Bunga and travelling Eastern India. In the bhatt vahis the youngest son of Bhai Mani Singh is given as Bhai Desa SinghThanks for that info. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Are there any early references to Bunge around Harimandir Sahib? Apart from this rahitnama, the only time i've seen this word in Sikh writings is in the alleged letter written by Bhai Mani Singh to Mata Sahib Devi regarding the Dasam Granth. The word bunga is used therein, but the authencity of that letter is disputed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Bunga means quarters or meeting place. It could be just a one small roomed building. Sometimes we have the notion that a bunga reps something like a tall building/tower. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Nope. All he says about himself is that his name is Desa Singh, he is a follower of Guru Gobind Singh and that he spend time at the Morali Bunga and travelling Eastern India. In the bhatt vahis the youngest son of Bhai Mani Singh is given as Bhai Desa SinghOkay, I think it is a BIG stretch to assume this Desa Singh is Bhai Mani Singh's son. More than one person can have the same name you know..... lol 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Of course you can't rule it out, just as there are 3 known Mani Singhs at one point in history. But I haven't heard of any other prominent Desa Singh around the same time, so on the probability of it, unless we can identify any other Desa Singhs from the same time period, I would still see this Desa Singh as one and the same.Anyone know of any other Desa Singhs from the same time period?Amardeep does the Bhatt Vahis give any other info about this Desa Singh other than his father's name? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Of course you can't rule it out, just as there are 3 known Mani Singhs at one point in history. But I haven't heard of any other prominent Desa Singh around the same time, so on the probability of it, unless we can identify any other Desa Singhs from the same time period, I would still see this Desa Singh as one and the same.Anyone know of any other Desa Singhs from the same time period?Amardeep does the Bhatt Vahis give any other info about this Desa Singh other than his father's name?Are you serious Chatanga??Why do you have to tie it to a prominent Desa Singh? What sort of logic is that?It could as easily be another Desa Singh. That's another thing that I think ruins Sikh historical research. This obsession with linking names to prominent people. So anything early written by say a Daya Singh would have to be linked to the panj piara with that name automatically. Then when it becomes obvious that it isn't that early a source we have to claim it is a later forgery trying to use a connection to a well known figure. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 Yeah it is possible that it is another Desa Singh. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 16, 2015 Report Share Posted September 16, 2015 What you should try is reading and analysing the text with minimal preconceptions and agenda and seeing what it suggests afterwards. I think sometimes we blindly take on a clearly tentative or tenuous point made by a previous scholar and because of this, we start doing all sorts of acrobatics with trying to explain a text. You guys know I have respect for the old school scholars, but they aren't above getting things wrong. No one is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Are you serious Chatanga??Why do you have to tie it to a prominent Desa Singh? What sort of logic is that?It could as easily be another Desa Singh. That's another thing that I think ruins Sikh historical research. This obsession with linking names to prominent people. So anything early written by say a Daya Singh would have to be linked to the panj piara with that name automatically. Then when it becomes obvious that it isn't that early a source we have to claim it is a later forgery trying to use a connection to a well known figure. Yes as I said earlier, there is always the possibiltiy of another it being another Desa Singh. Maybe the word prominent was the wrong word to use, what I meant from it was a "known" Desa Singh. From my reading of history in this century no other Desa Singh comes up.Have you read the whole rehatnama yet Dally? Edited September 17, 2015 by chatanga1 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 (edited) Yes as I said earlier, there is always the possibiltiy of another it being another Desa Singh. Maybe the word prominent was the wrong word to use, what I meant from it was a "known" Desa Singh. From my reading of history in this century no other Desa Singh comes up.Have you read the whole rehatnama yet Dally?I read a translation of it and have dipped in and out of the original text But that was a good few years back.. My Panjabi aint that good yet for me to straight read it. Anyway, like I said, if you are reading it, try approaching it with the mindset that it is written by somebody called Desa Singh, take all presumptions of who this might be out of the equation and see what you discover. Trust me, it's the best way. Edited September 17, 2015 by dalsingh101 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 The main text features the name "Nand Lal" several times, and it gives me the impression that Desa Singh portrays himself to be a witness to the "Prasan-Uttar" between Nand Lal and Guru Ji. Desa Singh states that Nand Lal asked the questions (prasan kara Nand Lal), and then gives Guru Sahibs response. In places it is quite similiar to Bhai Nand Lal's rehatnama.i.e. several sentences beginning with "rehat bina".As a "yatra to Sri Hazur Sahib" and "Guru Granth Sahib" are mentioned this writing must definitely have taken place after 1708, but there doesn't seem to be many other clues to further date it.Now unless Desa Singh had Bhai Nand Lals rehatnama to hand, maybe its plausible that he was a witness to the conversation? And wrote it sometime in the years that Amritsar knew peace? The only time that immediately comes to mind is when "Nawabgi" was offered to the Sikhs (1730s). If I'm correct there were something like 6 years of peace before hostilities broke out again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 The main text features the name "Nand Lal" several times, and it gives me the impression that Desa Singh portrays himself to be a witness to the "Prasan-Uttar" between Nand Lal and Guru Ji. Desa Singh states that Nand Lal asked the questions (prasan kara Nand Lal), and then gives Guru Sahibs response. In places it is quite similiar to Bhai Nand Lal's rehatnama.i.e. several sentences beginning with "rehat bina".As a "yatra to Sri Hazur Sahib" and "Guru Granth Sahib" are mentioned this writing must definitely have taken place after 1708, but there doesn't seem to be many other clues to further date it.Now unless Desa Singh had Bhai Nand Lals rehatnama to hand, maybe its plausible that he was a witness to the conversation? And wrote it sometime in the years that Amritsar knew peace? The only time that immediately comes to mind is when "Nawabgi" was offered to the Sikhs (1730s). If I'm correct there were something like 6 years of peace before hostilities broke out again. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 17, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 I read a translation of it online? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted September 17, 2015 Report Share Posted September 17, 2015 If I recall rightly McLeod translated it, and their was a much older (partial) translation by Trilochan Singh. The main text features the name "Nand Lal" several times, and it gives me the impression that Desa Singh portrays himself to be a witness to the "Prasan-Uttar" between Nand Lal and Guru Ji. Desa Singh states that Nand Lal asked the questions (prasan kara Nand Lal), and then gives Guru Sahibs response. In places it is quite similiar to Bhai Nand Lal's rehatnama.i.e. several sentences beginning with "rehat bina".As a "yatra to Sri Hazur Sahib" and "Guru Granth Sahib" are mentioned this writing must definitely have taken place after 1708, but there doesn't seem to be many other clues to further date it.Now unless Desa Singh had Bhai Nand Lals rehatnama to hand, maybe its plausible that he was a witness to the conversation? And wrote it sometime in the years that Amritsar knew peace? The only time that immediately comes to mind is when "Nawabgi" was offered to the Sikhs (1730s). If I'm correct there were something like 6 years of peace before hostilities broke out again.Okay, but it still feels like you trying to force an early 1700s date on it. Forget dates and try and see what the text reveals. The issue of dating should come after analysing the text (maybe even a couple of times!) in my opinion. Instead of using one clue, you should use the information more holistically. Your point about Bhai Nand Lal and the way it seems to present that discussion is interesting. Yes, he could be a witness but he could as easily (if not more easily) be using a copy of Bhai Nand Lal's rehat when writing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 18, 2015 Report Share Posted September 18, 2015 If you find any early references to bunge let me know. Ie were there bunge prior to the misl period. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted September 21, 2015 Author Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 If you find any early references to bunge let me know. Ie were there bunge prior to the misl period.Probably a long shot, but the name "morali" is Sanskrit for flute, I think maybe this was another name for Shri Krishan Bhagwan, but could it be that this was what was taught at the Bunga? Maybe a music kender for Hindus or something? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 Interesting. Could be 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 If you find any early references to bunge let me know. Ie were there bunge prior to the misl period.Have been looking "Mazhabi Sikhan da itihass" by Shamsher Singh Ashok. He has listed some bunge in Amritsar, but there is no bunga called Morali mentioned. Ashok says there are/were 16 bunge belonging to the misls at Amritsar during misl period. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Have been looking "Mazhabi Sikhan da itihass" by Shamsher Singh Ashok. He has listed some bunge in Amritsar, but there is no bunga called Morali mentioned. Ashok says there are/were 16 bunge belonging to the misls at Amritsar during misl period.Anything interesting in the history that is hidden from 'mainstream' Sikh history? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Nope. Ashok has listed some famous Mazhabi Sikhs and told about their lives. It's a good book to learn from. He has told about the story of the "Mazhabi Bunga" at Amritsar. This used to stand where Guru Ramdas Langar Hall is now. It was purchased from the Mahants of the Bunga and pulled down to make Langar Hall. Recently there has been some articles on FB that the Bunga was destroyed to remove the Mazhabi presence from Darbar Sahib. Seems very unlikely as this was the time of the Singh Sabha Lehar as they were very instrumental in taking Sikhi to the "outcastes".A list of Bunge in Amritsar (From Sikhi-wiki)The Bungas of AmritsarBungas on the western side of the Harimandar Sahib:1. Bunga Jallianvala2. Bunga Shahabadiari3. Bunga Majithiari4. Bunga Singhpuriari5. Bunga Singhpuriari, 2nd6. Bunga Gaddovaliari7. Bunga Khushal Singh also known as Bunga Tin Manzala (threestoryed)8. Bunga Kanhaiya Sardarari9. Bunga Raja Dhian Singh10. Bunga Bararidarivala11. Akal Bunga12. Bunga Jodh Singh Chhapavala13. Bunga Bhag Singh Shahid14. Bunga Deva Singh Shahid15. Bunga Ragi Dhanpat Singh16. Bunga General Mihari Singh17. Bunga Bhai Gurdas, Giani18. Bunga Abhai Singh Hukamnamia19. Bunga Nakaiari (Nakai Buriga)20. Bunga Barkivaliari21. Bunga Gharialvala22. Jhanda Bunga23. Bunga Chamarivaliari24. Bunga Khaduriari25. Bunga Sialkotiari26. Bunga Gobind Dasiari27. Bunga Chichevaliari28. Bunga SukkarchakkiariBungas on northern side:1. Ghanta Ghar (Clock Tower, which was erected, where earlier stood the Bunga of Sardars of Ladva2. Bunga Sodhis ofAnandpur/Bunga Sodhiari3. Bunga Kahn Singh Nirmala4. Bunga Kahn Singh Ragi5. Bunga Nurmahaliari6. Bunga Ahluvaliari7. Bunga Malvaiari/Malvai Buriga8. Bunga Bhai Sahibs of Kaithal9. Bunga JallevaliariBungas on eastern side:1. Bunga Akhara Mahant Santokh Das2. Bunga Ram Singh Giani3. Bunga Jassa Singh Ramgarhia4. Bunga Burievaliari5. Bunga Jethuvaliari6. Bunga Mazhabi Sikkhari7. Bunga Bhai Vasti Ram8. Bunga Javala Singh Bharhaniari9. Bunga SantJoga Singh Nirmala10. Bunga Tek SinghvalaBungas on southern side:1. Buriga Sohalarivaliari/Sohalarivala2. Buriga Buddh Singhvala3. Buriga Sohiarivala4. Shahid Buriga5. Buriga Kesgarhiari6. Buriga Anandpuriari7. Buriga Dasaundha Singh Sidhvari8. Buriga Jhabaliari9. Buriga Kaliapvale Sardarari10. Buriga Tara Singh Kahn Singh Man11. Buriga Tara Singh Ghaiba12. Buriga Bhariga Singh Thanesari13. Buriga Majja Singh Sahnavalia14. Buriga Baghel Singh15. Buriga Mirarikotiari16. Buriga Sham Singh Atarivala17. Buriga Jassa Singh Nirmala18. Buriga Lakkha Singh Nirmala19. Buriga Charhat Singh Ragi20. Buriga Jodh Singh Sauriarivala21. Buriga Javala Singh Bharhaniari22. Buriga Kabulevaliari(This includes one Akhara Mahant Santokh Das)Akharas of Amritsar:1. Akhara Santokh Das , now known as Akhara Brahm Buta (included in Bungas)2. Akhara Ghamand Das3. Akhara Chitta4. Akhara Tahil Das5. Akhara Bala Nand6. Akhara Mahant Prem Das7. Akhara Sarigalvala8. Akhara Karishivala, near Darwaza Ghi Mandi9. Akhara Karishivala, near Darwaza Sultanvind10. Akhara Prag Das11. Akhara Babeksar12. Akhara Samadhiarivala 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Cheers. Do let me know if you find any references. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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