Women as Advisors

[paapiman]

The below is from another topic, which was locked.

Important note: There might be many more arths of the below verses. Let's try to discuss the arth, based on the context and the uthanka.

 

Context - Signs of Kaljug. 

Uthanka - Narrated to Sidhs

 

ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥

Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.

- ਸਈਆਦ  also means Moorakh (fool) or Mureed (follower)

 

Please listen to Gyani jee (after 23.00 min):

http://www.gurbaniupdesh.org/multimedia/04-Katha/13-Giani Thakur Singh Ji (Patiala Wale)/Katha Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji/CD13(Ang1191-1353)/1083-Ang-1241-Pankti-09.mp3

 

According to the context (Parikaran), this tuk is talking about the negative signs in Kaljug, as it is evident from the other tuks in the Mahalla. Therefore, one can safely conclude that women being advisers, is not considered a great idea in Sikhism.

 

Amardeep Paaji had the following concern:

"Mate stop being a freak. So are you saying that men being hunters is wrong in kalyug as hunting should be done by women?"

 

Let's look at, all the other tuks of this Mahalla

 

Women have become advisors, 

and men have become fools.

Humility, self-control and purity have run away; 

people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.

Modesty has left her home, 

and honor has gone away with her

 

It is very clear that all tuks of the Mahalla are talking about the negative events that will take place in Kaljug. If context is taken into account, women being advisors, will have to be categorized as a bad sign in Kaljug.

 

If anyone else can provide more insight into these verses, it would be great.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Keerat Singh]

Most the teeka's have given similar araths. 

I think maharaj is talking of events which are taking place rather than signs of things to come. 

If you take the pangti together then it seems men are continuing to do their moorakta, (hunting can mean plundering, murdering or even hunting for maya), women have joined in and have become advisers in such durmat.  

There is nothing negative in the comment women have become advisors, its only when we take the whole shabad together we can try to make sense of it. 

 This is one potential arath. It will be nice to see how others understand this shabad. 

[paapiman]

 

There is nothing negative in the comment women have become advisors, its only when we take the whole shabad together we can try to make sense of it. 

Bro, ਸਈਆਦ  also means a follower.

Then, the arth of that tuk would be: " Women have become advisors and men have become followers"

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Arth given in Fareedkot wala teeka:

Quote

ਕਲਜੁਗ ਮੈਂ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਆਂ ਬੋਧ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਲੀਆਂ ਹੋ ਰਹੀ ਹੈਂ ਔਰ ਪੁਰਸ਼ (ਸਈਆਦ) ਸਿਖਿਆ ਲੈਣੇ ਵਾਲੇ ਵਾ ਬਧਕ ਭਾਵ ਸ਼ਿਕਾਰੀ ਅਰਥਾਤ ਕੁਕਰਮੀ ਹੋ ਰਹੇ ਹੈਂ ਭਾਵ ਪੁਰਸ਼ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀਓਂ ਕੇ ਅਧੀਨ ਹੈਂ॥

Unquote [1]

[1] - http://www.srigranth.org/servlet/gurbani.gurbani?Action=Page&Param=1243&g=1&h=1&r=1&t=1&p=0&fb=0&k=2

 

Arth of that tuk -  "Men are under women (In Kaljug)"

Bhul chuk maaf

 

[Lucky]

It's talking about Desires.......(that's what I see)

One may be dictating or encouraging a desire(woman)the woman quality within us... and the animal quality(hunter) ..goes hunting outside to satisfy this desire.

Guys...this is deeper than you think. It is the BOTH the woman and man qualities that WE possess.....that Guruji is referring to.

Desires--->Tongue-->taste--->sexual as well...which is why it goes on to discuss modesty, purity and honor.........see below

ਮਃ  ੧  ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:
 
ਰੰਨਾ  ਹੋਈਆ  ਬੋਧੀਆ  ਪੁਰਸ  ਹੋਏ  ਸਈਆਦ  ॥
Rannā ho▫ī▫ā boḏẖī▫ā puras ho▫e sa▫ī▫āḏ.
Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.
 
ਸੀਲੁ  ਸੰਜਮੁ  ਸੁਚ  ਭੰਨੀ  ਖਾਣਾ  ਖਾਜੁ  ਅਹਾਜੁ  ॥
Sīl sanjam sucẖ bẖannī kẖāṇā kẖāj ahāj.
Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.
 
ਸਰਮੁ  ਗਇਆ  ਘਰਿ  ਆਪਣੈ  ਪਤਿ  ਉਠਿ  ਚਲੀ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥
Saram ga▫i▫ā gẖar āpṇai paṯ uṯẖ cẖalī nāl.
Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her.

ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਚਾ  ਏਕੁ  ਹੈ  ਅਉਰੁ  ਨ  ਸਚਾ  ਭਾਲਿ  ॥੨॥
Nānak sacẖā ek hai a▫or na sacẖā bẖāl. ||2||
O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true. ||2|| 

 

read it very carefully... The 1st line can easily be read on the surface. BUT think what you are doing when reading as such ???....You are reading in further duality of the duality we already live in.. NOTE-Guru NANAK Ji's shabads very rarely talk in exoteric duality, except when he is praising. They are mostly Esoteric and inwardly directed to each and every one of us and the nutty minds we possess!

Your MIND -->enveloped in the feminine MAYA-->this is the ->she/the woman.

Hunter--->animal instinct---all about getting what you desire, ...you search for satisfaction to  quench thirst of desires..desires of tongue...which also lead to desires of genitalia......so when Guruji has used male/female--->also implies sexual desire and sexual hunger as well as hunger/desire of tongue.

You have to note that the TONGUE and genitalia are the TWO organs that are single, and in the middle of our dualistic bodies..(we have 2 arms,hands,eyes,ears, nostrils..etc..)  But TONGUE is ONE and when one can learn to control carnal desires by using it to JAP the ONE name, then the dishonorable sexual/lower down energies get transformed as well to purer and higher energies..  (it is fact that one who can control cravings of tongue/taste.. chocolate, sweets  etc  also has very little problem controlling carnal desires

 

So what is the last line saying ??

Well, Guruji is saying that your mind, your instincts, will send you around sniffing and biting trying to find that ultimate desire.......we foolishly know that we need something to quench this unknown thirst... It's unknown because whatever we find, consume and enjoy.....we are still NEVER satisfied..... WHY?? because what the Mind is really in search for is the Jyot Saroop, ...the TRUTH ..the Sach itself......and we don't even know it and will waste our whole life consuming everything we think tastes good.

 

ONLY the SACH is what we SHOULD BE HUNTING FOR......Nothing else !

 

my answer-->the tuk is nothing about women being desires or blaming the kalyug age we live in. When you really love and have True prem for Akaal Purakh, then you don't care if the light is from the moon or sun, whether it is dark or day, whether you are born in kalyug age or not,  because you should be thankful you have benn given this ONE chance to come out of lakh chaurasi.

 

 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

It's talking about Desires.......(that's what I see)

One may be dictating or encouraging a desire(woman)the woman quality within us... and the animal quality(hunter) ..goes hunting outside to satisfy this desire.

Guys...this is deeper than you think. It is the BOTH the woman and man qualities that WE possess.....that Guruji is referring to.

Desires--->Tongue-->taste--->sexual as well...which is why it goes on to discuss modesty, purity and honor.........see below

ਮਃ  ੧  ॥
Mėhlā 1.
First Mehl:
 
ਰੰਨਾ  ਹੋਈਆ  ਬੋਧੀਆ  ਪੁਰਸ  ਹੋਏ  ਸਈਆਦ  ॥
Rannā ho▫ī▫ā boḏẖī▫ā puras ho▫e sa▫ī▫āḏ.
Women have become advisors, and men have become hunters.
 
ਸੀਲੁ  ਸੰਜਮੁ  ਸੁਚ  ਭੰਨੀ  ਖਾਣਾ  ਖਾਜੁ  ਅਹਾਜੁ  ॥
Sīl sanjam sucẖ bẖannī kẖāṇā kẖāj ahāj.
Humility, self-control and purity have run away; people eat the uneatable, forbidden food.
 
ਸਰਮੁ  ਗਇਆ  ਘਰਿ  ਆਪਣੈ  ਪਤਿ  ਉਠਿ  ਚਲੀ  ਨਾਲਿ  ॥
Saram ga▫i▫ā gẖar āpṇai paṯ uṯẖ cẖalī nāl.
Modesty has left her home, and honor has gone away with her.

ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਚਾ  ਏਕੁ  ਹੈ  ਅਉਰੁ  ਨ  ਸਚਾ  ਭਾਲਿ  ॥੨॥
Nānak sacẖā ek hai a▫or na sacẖā bẖāl. ||2||
O Nanak, there is only One True Lord; do not bother to search for any other as true. ||2|| 

 

read it very carefully... The 1st line can easily be read on the surface. BUT think what you are doing when reading as such ???....You are reading in further duality of the duality we already live in.. NOTE-Guru NANAK Ji's shabads very rarely talk in exoteric duality, except when he is praising. They are mostly Esoteric and inwardly directed to each and every one of us and the nutty minds we possess!

Your MIND -->enveloped in the feminine MAYA-->this is the ->she/the woman.

Hunter--->animal instinct---all about getting what you desire, ...you search for satisfaction to  quench thirst of desires..desires of tongue...which also lead to desires of genitalia......so when Guruji has used male/female--->also implies sexual desire and sexual hunger as well as hunger/desire of tongue.

You have to note that the TONGUE and genitalia are the TWO organs that are single, and in the middle of our dualistic bodies..(we have 2 arms,hands,eyes,ears, nostrils..etc..)  But TONGUE is ONE and when one can learn to control carnal desires by using it to JAP the ONE name, then the dishonorable sexual/lower down energies get transformed as well to purer and higher energies..  (it is fact that one who can control cravings of tongue/taste.. chocolate, sweets  etc  also has very little problem controlling carnal desires

 

So what is the last line saying ??

Well, Guruji is saying that your mind, your instincts, will send you around sniffing and biting trying to find that ultimate desire.......we foolishly know that we need something to quench this unknown thirst... It's unknown because whatever we find, consume and enjoy.....we are still NEVER satisfied..... WHY?? because what the Mind is really in search for is the Jyot Saroop, ...the TRUTH ..the Sach itself......and we don't even know it and will waste our whole life consuming everything we think tastes good.

 

ONLY the SACH is what we SHOULD BE HUNTING FOR......Nothing else !

 

my answer-->the tuk is nothing about women being desires or blaming the kalyug age we live in. When you really love and have True prem for Akaal Purakh, then you don't care if the light is from the moon or sun, whether it is dark or day, whether you are born in kalyug age or not,  because you should be thankful you have benn given this ONE chance to come out of lakh chaurasi.

 

Lucky paaji - Can you please explain the simple arth of it, based on parkaran and uthanka? Any connections with sociology/psychology?

Thanks

Bhul chuk maaf

[Lucky]

I seriously can't explain it that easily. It's like you have to feel it..  I had just been doing simran for a few hours and was feeling quite elevated and lightweight and then I logged on here and saw this topic, looked at the shabad.........and all I can say is that I felt it immediately.  (Sometimes, the fog in front of our eyes just clears up!)

As Bhai Gurdas ji .."satguru Nanak pargataya, mitti dhundh(fog) jag chanan hoa"

I was chatting with someone the other day, and we both confirmed that bani's depths keep getting more clearer the more abyiaas you do. ..Besides, the message and meaning I put up their above is what it says to ""me"" at this very moment of where I am.  That's what gurbani is about and it speaks to each of us if we listen carefully... Just like the same hukamnaama will have completely different messages and meanings for the whole sangat!

There are always a few meaning on the surface, but there are also more ddeper meanings that go deeper and deeper....and these always move away from directions of dualities and physical/maya properties to sukham/subtle aspects.

 

 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

The below is from Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee. It is a bit related to the above shabad.

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 26, 2015 by paapiman

[paapiman]

Some more quotes from Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee:

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Edited September 26, 2015 by paapiman

[Ragmaala]

I do not know if this is a co-incidence or related events. The last shabad I came across this morning was the following:

ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਇਸਤ੍ਰੀ ਪੁਰਖੈ ਅਤਿ ਨੇਹੁ ਬਹਿ ਮੰਦੁ ਪਕਾਇਆ ॥ ਦਿਸਦਾ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਚਲਸੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਕਿਉ ਰਹੀਐ ਥਿਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਕੋ ਕਢਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰ ਪੂਰੇ ਕੀ ਚਾਕਰੀ ਥਿਰੁ ਕੰਧੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਬਖਸਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਅਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੩੩॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1250}

And when I logged on, this topic was the first one. I agree with Lucky, a same shabad will have different meanings for different people at different times.

What the above shabad tells me is the following: man & woman together think of vishe vikaar and end up entangling themselves even more , increasing their attachment. They are so entangled that they forget that one day they have to get separated and leave alone.

so relating to above shabad :ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥

When both men & women are entangled in greed, lust, attachment, are manmukhs, the advice of that woman will also be stupid/retarded, and man already possessing the  hunter/plundering qualities will listen to her woman and cause even more damage. The man who is so engrossed in lust with his wife, his intelligence will be clouded, disturbing reality for him, he will end up being of a hunter / plundered nature. And the woman who is engrossed in lust, attachment will only give a destructive advice to the man, and the man engrossed in lust will make only foolish decisions.

That is how, I interpret the above shabad.

[Ragmaala]

And before this thread goes down hill again, I just want to mention that Sikh women who are engrossed in Simran/Naam/Baani and live under the fear of Guru Ji are spiritually elevated and give advice which not benefits the husband but also many families.

And as I mentioned above, ਰੰਨਾ ਹੋਈਆ ਬੋਧੀਆ ਪੁਰਸ ਹੋਏ ਸਈਆਦ ॥  & Charitropakhyan Women examples

applies to only manmukh men & women who are deeply engrossed in lust & attachment.  It does not apply to spiritual Sikh men & women.  However, this is based only on my personal insight I am not a scholar or spiritually elevated person myself.

 

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Ragmaala

[CdnSikhGirl]

Except, we know from Paapiman's previous posts, he has a serious disdain and contempt of females... therefore, he will try to interpret everything he can to make it look like women are crap in Sikhism, while elevating his own male chauvenistic ego and patting his own back, while completely missing the actual true message in Gurbani which he doesn't seem to care about anyway as long as he can get some diggs in against women.  

I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish one day Paapiman would wake up and find that he has been transformed into a woman and have to live in a woman's body even for one day! Please Waheguru!  

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Satkirin_Kaur

[Ragmaala]

And it begins...

[Lucky]

Raagmala ji, Yes, the charitars are unrelated to the shabad and are in completely different contexts.

.........your understanding is correct and that approach in attitude is of benefit to all of us. You can come back to the same shabad a year later and you shall be able to dwell even deeper. But I  agree that it is desires of tongue and also desires of lower down genitalia/sexual promises/demands/needs...etc.

On the surface they may appear similar, but in NO way does gurbani ever contradict.  If I happen to come across something and there does seem some contradiction, then it's ALWAYS my own shortcoming and self created problem.

For eg. I'm sure we have all come across the shabad where Guru Nanak ji praises woman and explains that man is born from woman and then he marries/consummates with woman......

ਭੰਡਿ  ਜੰਮੀਐ  ਭੰਡਿ  ਨਿੰਮੀਐ  ਭੰਡਿ  ਮੰਗਣੁ  ਵੀਆਹੁ  ॥
Bẖand jammī▫ai bẖand nimmī▫ai bẖand mangaṇ vī▫āhu.
From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

Sadly, this shabad is again wrongly used to create more duality by wrong interpretations by masses................In this shabad, Guru ji is praising woman and actually if you go even spiritually deeper, he is in fact praising feminine maya itself, since gurmukh can only be created and transformed when born in maya... BUT only the TRUE AKAL PURAKH is without woman or maya/ since he was forever the TRUTH and didn't need any transforming from maya. (I'm not going to go off topic here)

But the point I'm making is that "How can Guruji praise woman in one and then disregard or pull out negatives in the other??"

IMPOSSIBLE-- Guru NEVER contradicts because TRUTH can never contradict itself.

Another example of what we see nowadays..........What are some major qualities that make a good lawyer lets say ??.. It' always a lawyer who pulls out and highlights Contradictions in some witness testimony or statement.........WHY? because lawyer can prove to the judge that the witness is somehow contradicting, then the judge/jury know and will be certain that such statement MUST be deviating away from the Truth. Since, they know in back of their minds that truth cannot contradict itself. Thus the witness has been exposed, the deviation away from truth of the matter has been confirmed......and there you go, decision made   ........SO, it's pretty Simple really----->TRUTH can never contradict.

If we remember this simple rule and apply it to gurbani, we would all understand it much better.

Chariters and lust are a different ball game to SGGS gurbani. Gurbani is direct spiritual guidance....I know some younger Sikhs won't get this or understand.

There are major misconceptions amongst Sikhs that lust is essential for procreation, so we all need a little bit of this vice for arousal and all that crap!..........absolute nonsense, because real spiritually elated and Waheguru connected couples will still consummate, they don't go brahmacharya. But their act does not have an ounce of lust, it will be an act of worship, whereby they embrace and connect with the god-atma in each other with pure love and pure truth.

 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2015 by Lucky

[paapiman]

There is no doubt that Charitars are related to SSGGSJ. When one chooses an adviser, trust is paramount. One will not prefer to have an adviser, who cannot maintain privacy and confidentiality. A fool (ਸਈਆਦ) will trust such an adviser. Daas heard in a katha that women (on average) have a habit of doing Chuglee (gossip). Even, men do gossip, but women are more into it. There is evidence available too, which suggests that women tell more fibs than men.

[1] - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3110136/Women-tell-fibs-men-honestly-Four-five-say-tell-lie-daily-basis.html

The above shabad is teaching us a great lesson in sociology and human Psychology. Women (on average) are more emotional than men. This is clear from the below

Quote

The biggest reason to lie was to 'make someone feel better'

Unquote [1]

When running big organizations, kingdoms, companies, groups, in a sangat, etc, the above factors play a huge role in determining their success.

Obviously, one cannot claim that all women are untrustworthy and we must never take advise of women. The keyword here is "on average".

There seems to be definite connection of this shabad with the Charitars. God willing, Daas will try to talk to a scholar about it.

Additionally (Daas might be wrong), there is a Rehatnama too, which states that a secret must never be revealed to a woman.

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

^ this is complete BS.  Paapiman, grow up.... 

[paapiman]

On 9/26/2015 at 3:08 AM, paapiman said:

Amardeep Paaji had the following concern:

"Mate stop being a freak. So are you saying that men being hunters is wrong in kalyug as hunting should be done by women?"

@amardeep

The hunter word is not used in the sense of actually hunting animals, it's been used to refer to looters, robbers, etc.

Please listen to Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwales's katha for clarification:

Please start listening at 16:45 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/01_Puratan_Katha/Sant_Gurbachan_Singh_(Bhindran_wale)/Guru_Granth_Sahib_Larivaar_Katha/Volume_13_Ang_1168-1273/075--Sant.Gurbachan.Singh.(Bhindran.wale)--Raag.Saarang--Ang-1242.(Vaar).mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf