Bhangra/Gidha Vs Sikhism

[amardeep]

On 5/26/2018 at 10:01 AM, paapiman said:

Thanks for bringing this verse up. This verse can actually be used to prove that dancing is prohibited in Sikhism.

The above tuk is not said in a positive sense. It is similar to saying, "the whole world is engrossed in maya and so are you".

The next verse will make it more clear.

ਸੋਈ ਜੀਉ ਨ ਵਜਦਾ ਜਿਸੁ ਅਲਹੁ ਕਰਦਾ ਸਾਰ ॥੧੧੦॥

That soul (or person) alone does not dance with it, who is under the care of the Lord God. ||110||

Let's look into more sources*:

* - This might go a bit off-topic, but it would be good to understand the above verse in details, as it has come up in this discussion.

 

1. Bhai Manmohan Singh jee:

Farid! The world dances as the devil makes it dance and thou too are playing with it;

that person alone dances not, who is under the Lord's care.

 

2. Amir Bhandar Teeka (Interesting footnote from Saarkutavali):

 

3. Prof. Sahib Singh jee:

 

4. Gurbani Arth Bhandar:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Very good, thanks for sharing those

[paapiman]

On 5/22/2018 at 8:39 AM, BhagatSingh said:

Ultimately no practice is prohibited in Guru Granth Sahib, if it does not violate the 3 Pillars.

It is not that simple. 

In order to understand which practices are prohibited in Sikhism (and why), one needs to be an expert in Sikh theology. It is possible that experts might differ here and there, but they should be able to reach a consensus on most major practices.

A Sikh theologian needs to have the following minimum requirements:

• In-depth knowledge of SSGGSJ obtained via studying teekas like Fareedkot, Amir Bhandar, etc. 
• In-depth knowledge of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee, Bhai Gurdas jee diyan Vaaran and works of Bhai Nand Lal jee.
• Familiar with historical texts such as Sri Sooraj Prakash, Sri Panth Prakash (both ones), Gurbilas, Sri Mehma Prakash, etc.
• All historical Rehatname (Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Desa Singh, Bhai Daya Singh, etc)

Once, all the above has been studied*, only then, one can be in a position to understand which practices do not conform to Gurmat. Other easy way is to just trust someone (putting aside one's ego) of the stature of Sant Baba Sundar Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale or Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale or Pandit Tara Singh jee Narotam, etc, who have spend years in studying all the above (along with their Bhagti). 

* - studied using the holistic approach too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

On 6/3/2018 at 3:43 PM, paapiman said:

Take it as a question. Answer - yes or no. If yes, please provide details. Hope that makes sense.

"Please provide name of any Mahapurakh/Sant (Sikh one) who has stated this or encouraged this. In the op, Sant Jarnail Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale termed Bhangra as Neechpuna."

The way Bhangra is normally done in parties is neechpuna. So he is correct there.

But if Sant ji said the art of Bhangra itself is neechpuna then he is wrong, and I would like a word with him.

But this idea of whether mahapurakh has said something...

Let's do a thought experiement.

Suppose Guru Nanak Dev ji comes back and makes a post that Dance is A OK for Sikhs.

You read his comment and you do not recognize him.

And you say "no" and list all your arguments.

In that scenario -

What would Guru Sahib have to say to you, in order to convince you that he doesn't think dancing or Bhangra is an issue here?

[Lucky]

Have a read of this previous post 

and especially...........

On 4/4/2018 at 2:19 AM, Lucky said:

 The real significance of bhangra moves have a lot of meanings to them; They are about activities whilst doing  kirat (working in farms/fields) , there are  moves that mimic animals of the pastures,  the gadda(tractor),  preparing soil, sowing seeds... reaping the grain..cutting the corn....and many more 

 

Now, I started training and dancing in a bhangra group from age 13 to 17yrs old.  Everything that I learned in terms of the dance moves, the beats, the thaals, the significance and meanings etc..  there was nothing neechpuna. Nothing that's sending me to hell!   Some dances we learned and performed were about Hari's creation and the beauty of the flowers, the nature, the birds .etc..  These were performed with boliyan that were in praise of hari. ...they would then lead on to dance and boliyan about how the beautiful pastures were cultivated for lentils, wheat, rice and how they were harvested.  

For someone that was 3rd generation, born and raised amidst all goray; it was my first active involvement with something Punjabi and cultural. It was only at that age that I started recognizing and appreciating some sort of identity. I'd say that it was the beginning; for making me the Punjabi that I am today. I don't give a hoots about the people that slag off bhangra and the UK bhangra scene that started in mid 80s, because I know that it saved many of our 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants from becoming whitewashed coconuts.   None of the nowaday 1st, 2nd or 3rd  Gen.Punjabis have any idea of what the earlier generations endured and had to go through to pave the way for the future.  

 

 

[amardeep]

Dancing is an expression of art and helps to tune in and 'let go' to musical rhythm. Kids that can't feel their own emotions often train this through music and dance as it helps them to feel a connection with something external (music) and internal (their body).  

Yes sure there are some that misuse it but that does'nt mean it per se becomes wrong. 

It's like those people that say it's wrong to clap and 'do rhythms' with your body when listening to kirtan.

[amardeep]

Overall you start seeing a "Talebanisation" of SIkhi these years with a ban on everything that manifests artistic expression, whether music, dance, painting etc.

It's quite sad actually and completely ahistorical.

Edited June 6, 2018 by amardeep

[Lucky]

11 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Dancing is an expression of art and helps to tune in and 'let go' to musical rhythm. Kids that can't feel their own emotions often train this through music and dance as it helps them to feel a connection with something external (music) and internal (their body).  

You got it.

Everything operates in harmony of brahm. You can only succeed on the path if you can conform to these same vibrations. Dancing has been used for connecting by most civilizations around the world. 

22 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Yes sure there are some that misuse it but that does'nt mean it per se becomes wrong. 

It's like those people that sad it's wrong to clap and 'do rhythms' with your body when listening to kirtan.

The "roms" are the first to vibrate in rhythm if it's in line with the truth. That's why you can tell when someone is moving there body from within and connecting externally. We all say that the person's heart is in it, but it's much more than that.   

[das]

Yes, I also feel the same that these days Sikhs are moving towards "Talebanisation"......and I could easily see that within 2 more generations (if not yet), the real Sikhism will be totally lost.

Anyways, this is the pattern that every religion follows. So, for dancers who are looking for a dance which is specifically designed to go with the natural rhythms......, then here it is:

Paneurhythmy (by Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov)

 

[Soulfinder]

ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਨਿਹਾਲੇ ਸਾਸ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਗਲੇ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਫਾਸ ॥੩॥

Pūrė ṯĝl nihĝlė sĝs. vĝ kė galė jam kĝ hai fĝs. ॥3॥

She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her.

But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. ॥3॥

(SGGS Ang 1165)

[amardeep]

58 minutes ago, Soulfinder said:

ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਨਿਹਾਲੇ ਸਾਸ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਗਲੇ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਫਾਸ ॥੩॥

Pūrė ṯĝl nihĝlė sĝs. vĝ kė galė jam kĝ hai fĝs. ॥3॥

She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her.

But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. ॥3॥

(SGGS Ang 1165)

Metaphor 

[BhagatSingh]

57 minutes ago, Soulfinder said:

ਪੂਰੇ ਤਾਲ ਨਿਹਾਲੇ ਸਾਸ ॥ ਵਾ ਕੇ ਗਲੇ ਜਮ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਫਾਸ ॥੩॥

Pūrė ṯĝl nihĝlė sĝs. vĝ kė galė jam kĝ hai fĝs. ॥3॥

She dances to the beat, exciting the breath of those who watch her.

But the noose of the Messenger of Death is around her neck. ॥3॥

(SGGS Ang 1165)

Sant Kabir ji says -

ਜਨਨੀ ਜਾਨਤ ਸੁਤੁ ਬਡਾ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਇਤਨਾ ਕੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਜਿ ਦਿਨ ਦਿਨ ਅਵਧ ਘਟਤੁ ਹੈ ॥ ਮੋਰ ਮੋਰ ਕਰਿ ਅਧਿਕ ਲਾਡੁ ਧਰਿ ਪੇਖਤ ਹੀ ਜਮਰਾਉ ਹਸੈ ॥੧॥

The mother thinks her son is becoming big, but she does not realize that his life is getting shorter and shorter. She loves her son but Death just looks at her affection for her son and laughs.

 

So should mothers stop caring for their sons?

Death is hovering around above all our activities -

We post on Sikhawareness forums, but the noose of the Yamraj is around our neck, tightening with every breath.

We go driving to work along the way, but the death is counting down our days.

 

Should we stop posting on Sikh awareness and stop driving and working and everything we do?

No

Guru Sahib is simply saying to be mindful of our death at all times.

Try to understand what Gurbani is teaching rather than using it as ammunition to advance your argument.

[paapiman]

6 hours ago, amardeep said:

It's quite sad actually and completely ahistorical.

Are there any historical examples from Guru-kaal where Maharaaj did Bhangra/Gidha, etc or encouraged his Sikhs to do so? Remember, these folk dances must have been common during those times too.

What about the quote from the Rehatnama (along with the evidence from Gurbani)?

6 hours ago, amardeep said:

Overall you start seeing a "Talebanisation" of SIkhi these years with a ban on everything that manifests artistic expression, whether music, dance, painting etc.

Don't put dancing in the same category as singing and painting. There is historical evidence available for those.

Again, what was the need for those Rehatnamas (with so many rules and codes to the followed)? The Sikhs who wrote them were Brahamgyanis (they had way higher spiritual states than all of us on this forum).

Strict discipline is utmost crucial in the life of a spiritual aspirant.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

In Dasam Bani in Gian Prabodh there is a description of a court from the Mahabharat, that appear to be a description of the Guru's own darbaar. In it, it states that in the darbaar, classical dancing is practiced. Sridasam.org website is down so I can't find the quote, and searchgurbani search tool is absolutely lame

[paapiman]

8 hours ago, amardeep said:

Dancing is an expression of art and helps to tune in and 'let go' to musical rhythm. Kids that can't feel their own emotions often train this through music and dance as it helps them to feel a connection with something external (music) and internal (their body).  

Let's leave the kids aside and talk about adults (who are serious on spiritual growth). 

Dancing makes the mind unsteady. One's mind needs to be relaxed and steady, while meditating.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

9 minutes ago, amardeep said:

In Dasam Bani in Gian Prabodh there is a description of a court from the Mahabharat, that appear to be a description of the Guru's own darbaar. In it, it states that in the darbaar, classical dancing is practiced. Sridasam.org website is down so I can't find the quote, and searchgurbani search tool is absolutely lame

Are you sure? Daas never heard that in the katha of Sri Gyan Prabodh. Maybe I missed it. Gurparsaad, will check my notes and get back to you.

But, is it referring to Bhangra/Gidha?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

8 hours ago, amardeep said:

Overall you start seeing a "Talebanisation" of SIkhi these years with a ban on everything that manifests artistic expression, whether music, dance, painting etc.

Artistic expressions within the boundaries of Gurmat. 

How does one define the boundaries of Sikhism?

Repetition of one of the posts above:

In order to understand which practices are prohibited in Sikhism (and why), one needs to be an expert in Sikh theology. It is possible that experts might differ here and there, but they should be able to reach a consensus on most major practices.

A Sikh theologian needs to have the following minimum requirements:

• In-depth knowledge of SSGGSJ obtained via studying teekas like Fareedkot, Amir Bhandar, etc. 
• In-depth knowledge of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee, Bhai Gurdas jee diyan Vaaran and works of Bhai Nand Lal jee.
• Familiar with historical texts such as Sri Sooraj Prakash, Sri Panth Prakash (both ones), Gurbilas, Sri Mehma Prakash, etc.
• All historical Rehatname (Bhai Chaupa Singh, Bhai Nand Lal, Bhai Desa Singh, Bhai Daya Singh, etc)

Once, all the above has been studied*, only then, one can be in a position to understand which practices do not conform to Gurmat. Other easy way is to just trust someone (putting aside one's ego) of the stature of Sant Baba Sundar Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale or Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Khalsa Bhindranwale or Pandit Tara Singh jee Narotam, etc, who have spend years in studying all the above (along with their Bhagti). 

* - studied using the holistic approach too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

53 minutes ago, amardeep said:

In Dasam Bani in Gian Prabodh there is a description of a court from the Mahabharat, that appear to be a description of the Guru's own darbaar. In it, it states that in the darbaar, classical dancing is practiced. Sridasam.org website is down so I can't find the quote, and searchgurbani search tool is absolutely lame

Do you remember the verse? or the page number?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, amardeep said:

Yes sure there are some that misuse it but that does'nt mean it per se becomes wrong. 

Some of the moves done in Bhangra dance mimic that of animals. Do you seriously think that our Satgurus would want us to mimic animals? Maharaaj is trying to take the states of our minds above that of Demi-Gods and look at what this dance is doing.

Even the expression "Bakre Baloune" (which is probably a part of the Bhangra dance) means to shriek like a goat. Did Maharaaj want us to behave like goats/sheep or roar like lions/tigers in battlefields (both physical/mental)?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, amardeep said:

Kids that can't feel their own emotions often train this through music and dance as it helps them to feel a connection with something external (music) and internal (their body).  

If dancing is used as some form of a therapy for an ill person, then that would be fine, as that would classify as an extenuating circumstance.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 6/3/2018 at 2:27 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Gatka as it is performed in nagar kirtans is also a dance form.

Gatka is technically a part of Shastar vidhya. It might seem to an ordinary person as a dance form.

Shastar Vidhya teaches a person self-defense and to physically defend the poor, women, children, oppressed, etc. Dancing does not. It is a hukam for the Sikhs to fight against injustice/tyranny. 

A Sikh should not be doing Bhangra in his field by looking at its yield. Instead, he should be channeling his joy by praying and thanking to Akal Purakh for his mercy.  

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Soulfinder]

3 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Sant Kabir ji says -

ਜਨਨੀ ਜਾਨਤ ਸੁਤੁ ਬਡਾ ਹੋਤੁ ਹੈ ਇਤਨਾ ਕੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਜਿ ਦਿਨ ਦਿਨ ਅਵਧ ਘਟਤੁ ਹੈ ॥ ਮੋਰ ਮੋਰ ਕਰਿ ਅਧਿਕ ਲਾਡੁ ਧਰਿ ਪੇਖਤ ਹੀ ਜਮਰਾਉ ਹਸੈ ॥੧॥

The mother thinks her son is becoming big, but she does not realize that his life is getting shorter and shorter. She loves her son but Death just looks at her affection for her son and laughs.

 

So should mothers stop caring for their sons?

Death is hovering around above all our activities -

We post on Sikhawareness forums, but the noose of the Yamraj is around our neck, tightening with every breath.

We go driving to work along the way, but the death is counting down our days.

 

Should we stop posting on Sikh awareness and stop driving and working and everything we do?

No

Guru Sahib is simply saying to be mindful of our death at all times.

Try to understand what Gurbani is teaching rather than using it as ammunition to advance your argument.

Veer ji i am not starting a argument i mean why should i ? This website is like a second home for me and i like to treat everyone as family on here.

 

Here is a pankthi i found from Bavan Akhri

ਗਗਾ ਗੋਬਿਦ ਗੁਣ ਰਵਹੁ ਸਾਸਿ ਸਾਸਿ ਜਪਿ ਨੀਤ ॥

Gagaa Gobidh Gun Ravahu Saas Saas Jap Neeth ||

GAGGA: Chant the Glorious Praises of the Lord of the Universe with each and every breath; meditate on Him forever.

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੧ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੨ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਕਹਾ ਬਿਸਾਸਾ ਦੇਹ ਕਾ ਬਿਲਮ ਨ ਕਰਿਹੋ ਮੀਤ ॥

Kehaa Bisaasaa Dhaeh Kaa Bilam N Kariho Meeth ||

How can you rely on the body? Do not delay, my friend;

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੨ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੨ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਨਹ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਨਹ ਜੋਬਨੈ ਨਹ ਬਿਰਧੀ ਕਛੁ ਬੰਧੁ ॥

Neh Baarik Neh Jobanai Neh Biradhhee Kashh Bandhh ||

There is nothing to stand in Death's way - neither in childhood, nor in youth, nor in old age.

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੩ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਓਹ ਬੇਰਾ ਨਹ ਬੂਝੀਐ ਜਉ ਆਇ ਪਰੈ ਜਮ ਫੰਧੁ ॥

Ouh Baeraa Neh Boojheeai Jo Aae Parai Jam Fandhh ||

That time is not known, when the noose of Death shall come and fall on you.

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੪ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੩ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਗਿਆਨੀ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਚਤੁਰ ਪੇਖਿ ਰਹਨੁ ਨਹੀ ਇਹ ਠਾਇ ॥

Giaanee Dhhiaanee Chathur Paekh Rehan Nehee Eih Thaae ||

See, that even spiritual scholars, those who meditate, and those who are clever shall not stay in this place.

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੫ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਛਾਡਿ ਛਾਡਿ ਸਗਲੀ ਗਈ ਮੂੜ ਤਹਾ ਲਪਟਾਹਿ ॥

Shhaadd Shhaadd Sagalee Gee Moorr Thehaa Lapattaahi ||

Only the fool clings to that, which everyone else has abandoned and left behind.

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੬ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸਿਮਰਤ ਰਹੈ ਜਾਹੂ ਮਸਤਕਿ ਭਾਗ ॥

Gur Prasaadh Simarath Rehai Jaahoo Masathak Bhaag ||

By Guru's Grace, one who has such good destiny written on his forehead remembers the Lord in meditation.

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੭ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

ਨਾਨਕ ਆਏ ਸਫਲ ਤੇ ਜਾ ਕਉ ਪ੍ਰਿਅਹਿ ਸੁਹਾਗ ॥੧੯॥

Naanak Aaeae Safal Thae Jaa Ko Priahi Suhaag ||19||

O Nanak, blessed and fruitful is the coming of those who obtain the Beloved Lord as their Husband. ||19||

ਗਉੜੀ ਬ.ਅ. (ਮਃ ੫) (੧੯):੮ - ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੨੫੪ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Gauri Guru Arjan Dev

[Soulfinder]

3 hours ago, amardeep said:

Metaphor 

This is a line i found on google today but after further reading its from Bhagat Namdev Ji.

[paapiman]

19 hours ago, amardeep said:

It's like those people that say it's wrong to clap and 'do rhythms' with your body when listening to kirtan.

Clapping can disturb other people. Therefore, it is very easy to comprehend on why it would not be allowed in Kirtan Darbars.

Bodily rhythms, at times, can be involuntary. It just happens. If someone is doing it intentionally (or can consciously limit it), then he should try to control himself, especially if it's disturbing other people.

Certain etiquette level must be followed in Sadh-Sangat. When you are at home listening to Kirtan, you can clap and do bodily rhythms as much as you want.

Being very strict on such matters like saying that you should not move at all in Sangat is getting impractical, but IMHO one cannot compare these points to doing Bhangra/Gidha.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Lucky]

On ‎6‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 4:18 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Let's do a thought experiement.

Suppose Guru Nanak Dev ji comes back and makes a post that Dance is A OK for Sikhs.

You read his comment and you do not recognize him.

And you say "no" and list all your arguments.

In that scenario -

What would Guru Sahib have to say to you, in order to convince you that he doesn't think dancing or Bhangra is an issue here?

I wouldn't need convincing.

@paapiman

What if I said to you that "I can do Sift Salah of Waheguru whilst my body may be dancing(bhangra)" ?   and yes, I did try it and I was praising and doing bhajan of Akaal purakh in my mind.  

In my understanding, those saas that I took whilst dancing and praising Waheguru, should get accounted for my naam wealth. I didn't wastes those saas with any other thoughts

 

 

[paapiman]

On 6/6/2018 at 5:10 PM, amardeep said:

In Dasam Bani in Gian Prabodh there is a description of a court from the Mahabharat, that appear to be a description of the Guru's own darbaar. In it, it states that in the darbaar, classical dancing is practiced. Sridasam.org website is down so I can't find the quote, and searchgurbani search tool is absolutely lame

Did you find the reference?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf