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Exactly!

Sex between husband and wife = ok (regardless of how that couple wishes to share intimacy, and does not have to solely be for procreation). 

Sex under any other circumstance (with any other person than your spouse) is wrong. 

It got off topic because the idea of oral sex obviously not being for procreation. So the conversation went to the question, is sex for only procreation only, meaning oral sex would be prohibited.  That led to the question then, what is the purpose of marriage and are women only there just to be incubators (birthing machines just to continually pop babies out their entire adult life) and what role men have in childrearing.  dalsingh ji brought in the idea of gayness... I think because he is in disagreement with sex = only for procreation and thinks those who believe so are closet homosexuals not wanting to have sex with their arranged marriage wives (if I understood him correctly).  

I think the discussion was more natural progression of topics related to the original than getting off topic. lol

Agreed oral sex itself is not even mentioned. And Gurbani does not say anything about what is allowed or not during sex or that sex is only for making babies.  Excessive sexual desire (lust) for solely physical pleasure is looked down upon. Not because it's a 'sin' (I thought Sikhi didn't have concept of sin like Abrahamic religions) but because the five evils lust included, are stumbling blocks in your spiritual journey.  Sex unbridled and misused would obviously hinder your connection to the divine. Whereas a loving relationship with your spouse where sex is an expression of that love and in moderation, is entirely different. 

 

 

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17 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

 

Also, your very statement above "how many women want to be with a guy who is girly" illustrates my point.  It makes the statement that 1) being a girl is bad while being a boy is good 2) uses all of the cultural and societal things which we created as the criteria to decide what makes one 'girly'.  If we stop saying that being open with one's emotions is being 'girly' and is just call it a human trait, then a guy won't be labelled 'girly' for being open with his emotions, but instead just be seen as human.

 

 

By the way many men like dominant women too. And two dominants does not mean clashes. It just means they both respect each other on equal level. Instead of one being placed in inferior or subordinate role. 

It is also the other way around . majority of guys want to be with Girly , or feminine girls.Its just the way evolutionary psychology programmed humans many of our traits are inbuilt in our brains.desire for certain kind of partner does not mean  people consider other as  inferior

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If I have a girl, you can bet she won't get dollies and toy vacuum cleaners and play kitchens. She will have chemistry sets, microscope, telescopes, her own tools, even cars etc. so she can learn actual skills. And she will be enrolled in tae kwon do from a young age. 

So you are already planning her to raise as boy as you consider play kitchens dolls  inferior? great. As for your information plenty of girls have boys toys. Infact when I was very young I got crazy about nut bolt set and it was my sister's who hardly was interested in it. 

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Also its been proven that cultures which empower their girls and train them to fight and defend themselves, is hugely positive. Societies with submissive helpless women brought up to be obedient to men and incapable to defend themselves, the women are that way because its how they have been conditioned.

We don't know how society will shape up. Just read about Jamaica, 60% of women bosses and managerial position , must be an ideal place for women , no. because men has adopted thug culture , they  consider studying is girly while voilence is cool . Result high murder and crime rate. a very high percentage of boys are raised by single mothers as fathers don't play any role  but boys still get attracted to thug  culture rather than taking care of families.some social scientists say that 180 years of slavery has created this culture. In other words we don't know how society will shape up. 

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@kdsingh80 I don't think that thug culture resulted from women working and studying. I think it was more likely that it resulted from illicit drug trade etc. And you said women STILL do all the work raising children. What I am advocating is EQUAL participation raising children by both Mother and Father. Bonding by BOTH parents and BOTH parents having chance to work as well. Either by alternating hours working schedules etc.  Of course it leaves less time for them to be together as a couple but it CAN be managed. Or if you happen to have other family members like grandparents who are retired and can also help out.

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4 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said:

There is so much fight and argument over gender inequality. One bad example I saw was when a Sikh couple got married and the female chose to walk side by side with him instead of being behind him because she thought if she walks behind him then there is not an equality. I know there are many men who dominant women like crazy and it's certainly wrong but I have seen many women who fight everywhere under the name of equal rights too. How are we going to learn the value of forgiveness if all we do is battle against the gender. My mom does not say my dads name and I never questioned that because Mata gujri ji never said the name of her husband. Of course, when I get married I will say his name since old time is gone but he will get proper respect and I won't have fights over gender rights. How can I conquer my anger and learn to see Vaheguroo in everyone while I am having an argument over that he did not help me while doing the dishes.

Gurbani teaches us to see Vaheguroo ji in everybody and learn to forgive others since in the end what matter most is our own actions. If I am a guy I can go around yelling I am a man and you woman worship me, respect me and in return I won't give you respect. This is wrong. If I am a woman, which I am lol. I can go around saying Nope, I won't do the dishes unless you help me since I believe in equal rights. I see that wrong, if I am not dying and can do dishes by myself I will do it lol. I know cheesy Example but I hope my point can be understood lol. 

when a person lower themselves it does not make them weak, it makes them stronger. If someone curse at you and you choose to stay quiet then you are not weak, you showed your strength. It's super easy to curse back but it takes real strength to not curse back and let it go. Speaking from my experience, people think I am weak when I stay quiet but in my mind I don't hurt others and is not cursing back at the Vaheguroo I see in them.

You all are more mature and experienced than me, sorry if said anything wrong.

The only problem I see with this is that if you say nothing, nothing will ever change.  You can't just expect that he will see the error of his ways and all of a sudden start helping you with the dishes one day.  You have to speak up if you want him to do his part.

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5 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

I see a guy who is different than others, seems religious and think Jesus is the only savior, reminded me of shrek, and is the focus of the whole picture.

You've got to watch Sopranos to get what I'm getting at. In that show the above character is a mobster who is married with kids. Later it transpires that he is a closet homosexual living a double life. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

The only problem I see with this is that if you say nothing, nothing will ever change.  You can't just expect that he will see the error of his ways and all of a sudden start helping you with the dishes one day.  You have to speak up if you want him to do his part.

First of all, I wanna say sorry to you for all the people who have been mean. I did spend some time reading posts about women right on this forum and some people did say some mean stuff. However, i don't fully agree with the approach you are taking. I read many of your posts, you are after women rights so bad that everything goes towards it.

To me if I wanna be a good person I will have to let go of my Ego, I read your post about marriage and whole thing was about saying how you had a control over the Palla and you could just control the pace of your husband and how they said women can be part of panj Payaras. I just wanna know why is there a big need that everything should be equal literally? 

Guru amardas ji, the king of the world was sitting at manji and Bhai dattu came and kicked guru ji, he fell, got up and asked , is your feet okay? I am old and my bones are hard I hope I have not hurt you. That was the humility of my Guru amardas ji. That was the saakhi which shaked me so bad that I got deep into spirituality. This taught me if the king of the king can bow down front of a person who was so mean to hurt an old person then who am I to keep my head above so high.

If there are bigger problems like where women are being treated like an animal then I will stand by you with women rights, but if it has to do with small things like women giving their husband somewhat superiority, or no women in panj peyare. Why are we fighting if guru ji chose not to take any women, why can't we accept that and be like okay. I read some gurdwaras don't let women do small seva at gurdwaras, this is something I am with you. But this obsession about being everything equal might make us go away from the real meaning of following sikhi. 

There are countless stories which will show how the great saints and gurus showed humility and served even the lowest of low which were called by people. But look around today an amritdhari person will put other amritdhari down becaus they don't belong to their takht. I am stupid, I know nothing but one thing I know is women right is going too far and so does the those men who think a women deserve no respect. They need to just remember why call her bad when she gave birth to kings. I know you are not Indian and I know society influence a lot, I have spent almost 12 years in west and craze I see on women about being equal is not healthy. And so does the men who suffe from God complex. However, one gender has to show the maturity and learn to accept some rules which society created.

The type of world women want is where equality is everywhere and literally but then after that is achieved women will go to the extreme saying okay now men should start giving birth too, why we suffer? Every month I go through that horrible pain, I am like wish I was a guy but when I am a normal person with emotions and feelings and see guys being practical I'm like naw I don't wanna be man. Not saying all men are emotionless but some of them are weird lol no offense guys:). The point is this there are bigger things to fight over rather than men doing the house chores, women giving an apoourtunity to be in panj, women not able to stand that their husbands are considered superior. Somebody talked about touching other people's feet and I would touch everybody's feet because it will bring humility and humbleness. That's why we do shoe seva in gurdwara sahib so we can touch people's shoes and can become humble. There is a saakhi about 5th guru ji doing the shoes seva of the people who came to visit him if I am not wrong. I will find it and post it.

This world will become a much better place if people start learning that life is not about having equal rights, their rules and regulations, their religion, their attire. Life is about becoming what Guru Amardas ji was and other guru ji. I will highly suggest you to read sau saakhi, it has the stories of gurus and their humility, it's in English too. 

I know I said a lot and I am sorry for coming as very rude, did not mean too. I apologize.

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Yes this life is about following what our Gurus taught. One of that was fighting injustice. There are probably Singhs on here right now snickering how you have been properly whipped. You sound like you have given up. Yes the little things very much do matter because those little Things multiply into demeanours and attitudes. They lead to situations where men always got more, were entitled to more etc. This attitude developes subtly into more serious things like hitting wives etc and thinking 'oh I'm a man she is just a woman so it's ok' it turns into things like women being viewed as impure because of natural functions. Women being seen as weak and incapable and so not given same opportunity for jobs. Preference for male children and so female infanticide and abortion. 

These attitudes start at home right from childhood. If your little boy sees you telling your daughter 'hey it's ok of daddy is superior to me' that boy grows up devaluing women and your daughter thinks she is worthless. And the results don't stay at home. 

Why is Panj pyara seva important? Because it's the leadership position. Telling women they aren't good enough tells them they are not able to lead. Since major decisions made by Panj pyaras that means women have no say in major decision making. Keeping women from gurdwara management does the same thing. Keeping women From leadership and authority positions means women never have any influence or say. Then men start accusing and if women speak up they are called nagging. And if they subtly try to sway decisions they are called deceitful. 

It comes down to one thing. Men want power and they don't want women to have any. 

And of course many are not like this! And NO progress would have been made without people actually speaking against atrosities against women and Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the first!!!!! Our Gurus spoke out against it! And we should as you say follow what they have done!! You may see no parallel between big atrosities and a husband thinking he is superior but it ALL starts at home with the attitude that men are better than women and children learning this!

If you want to exhibit Stockholm syndrome then go ahead. I will always fight against injustice. 

In another thread you describe how you feel like a failure for not getting a job or making it to masters program. Some men think women were never meant to work and should stay home and just serve men anyway. So maybe you should just ask your parents to marry you off so you cAn stay at home and serve a man who thinks he is superior to you?? Still feel like a failure?? You can do his dishes and clean up after him while he makes all the decisions and considers you inferior and you can explain to your daughter someday why. 

*****. Keep in mind I know majority of men are not ANYTHING like the above and I exaggerated to make a point but still male hatred of women is subtle but very evident in some!!! And the desire to always have the upper hand and control or more privilege than women is very evident especially on this forum! The only reason we aren't still throwing ourselves in funeral pyres and being locked in a room during menstruation etc is because our Gurus spoke out against it! We can NEVER let things go backwards!!!

Also we must uphold Sikh Rehet Maryada which says nothing is barred to women. And Gurbani says "As Gurmukh look upon ALL with single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained." How can you do that if you teach your daughter she is worth less than her brothers? Or if you teach sons it's ok to think they are superior to their sisters? 

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1 hour ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

 

Log Yes this life is about following what our Gurus taught. One of that was fighting injustice. There are probably Singhs on here right now snickering how you have been properly whipped. You sound like you have given up. Yes the little things very much do matter because those little Things multiply into demeanours and attitudes. They lead to situations where men always got more, were entitled to more etc. This attitude developes subtly into more serious things like hitting wives etc and thinking 'oh I'm a man she is just a woman so it's ok' it turns into things like women being viewed as impure because of natural functions. Women being seen as weak and incapable and so not given same opportunity for jobs. Preference for male children and so female infanticide and abortion. 

These attitudes start at home right from childhood. If your little boy sees you telling your daughter 'hey it's ok of daddy is superior to me' that boy grows up devaluing women and your daughter thinks she is worthless. And the results don't stay at home. 

Why is Panj pyara seva important? Because it's the leadership position. Telling women they aren't good enough tells them they are not able to lead. Since major decisions made by Panj pyaras that means women have no say in major decision making. Keeping women from gurdwara management does the same thing. Keeping women From leadership and authority positions means women never have any influence or say. Then men start accusing and if women speak up they are called nagging. And if they subtly try to sway decisions they are called deceitful. 

It comes down to one thing. Men want power and they don't want women to have any. 

And of course many are not like this! And NO progress would have been made without people actually speaking against atrosities against women and Guru Nanak Dev Ji was the first!!!!! Our Gurus spoke out against it! And we should as you say follow what they have done!! You may see no parallel between big atrosities and a husband thinking he is superior but it ALL starts at home with the attitude that men are better than women and children learning this!

If you want to exhibit Stockholm syndrome then go ahead. I will always fight against injustice. 

In another thread you describe how you feel like a failure for not getting a job or making it to masters program. Some men think women were never meant to work and should stay home and just serve men anyway. So maybe you should just ask your parents to marry you off so you cAn stay at home and serve a man who thinks he is superior to you?? Still feel like a failure?? You can do his dishes and clean up after him while he makes all the decisions and considers you inferior and you can explain to your daughter someday why. 

*****. Keep in mind I know majority of men are not ANYTHING like the above and I exaggerated to make a point but still male hatred of women is subtle but very evident in some!!! And the desire to always have the upper hand and control or more privilege than women is very evident especially on this forum! The only reason we aren't still throwing ourselves in funeral pyres and being locked in a room during menstruation etc is because our Gurus spoke out against it! We can NEVER let things go backwards!!!

Also we must uphold Sikh Rehet Maryada which says nothing is barred to women. And Gurbani says "As Gurmukh look upon ALL with single eye of equality for in each and every heart the divine light is contained." How can you do that if you teach your daughter she is worth less than her brothers? Or if you teach sons it's ok to think they are superior to their sisters? 

In real world, everybody go through restrictions. My brother has restrictions on him and so do I by our parents. He would marry any girl mom dad will fin for him, not because he can't find someone in his own because he respects my mom. He can go all on justice theme and be like nope mom is a female and inferior.  I have two options I can rebel against my parents under the name of justice or I can give them respect and be like whatever you say mom dad. There is a huge difference between the thinking of white people and brown people. I have white friends who tells me how being a good girl is so out of fashion and how I should rebel. Always smiled at it cuz with rebel my ego will get bigger and my ability to keep my parents happy will decrease. I believe in keeping others happy before myself and even if after marriage I have to make compromises to keep my husband I will do so. These small things only matter when we make them bigger. From your perspective and the society you are raised , you are right. But majority of the Indian women don't go for fights with their husbands because they wanna have the title to be so called equality. And about me getting married and staying at home, it's 20th century you won't find housewives, it's old theme now. My situation can change anytime with waheguru ji's Kirpa.Thank you for your suggestion :). I have never seen any guy stopping a women to go out and work. I am not saying you are wrong when you go for women right, but if you look around and see there are other places where women need more help. Not many Sikh girls want to go on a war with men over the things like leadership in paath or being able to walk right next to them instead of being behind them. Fighting with them for not helping with dishes or proving their kids that they and their hubby are equal. 

Also if my daughter sees me listening to my husband instead of arguing with him, she will learn the lesson of being tolerance and if she thinks that by doing that I am becoming inferior then we must stop bowing to saints and gurus either cuz that makes us inferior too. Indian people touch elderly peoples feet, men mostly do that, my bro has to touch everybody's feet and I don't have too. He never said why this injustice where men have to touch feet and women does not have too. Men hold doors for women, and treat them well but we women choose to ignore all the good qualities and look at bad. I have had bad experiences with dad and bro but at the same time I have gotten love and respect from them too, I can't put all under the rug just because one thing of men bothered us.

If I go with you under the name of justice, I will have anger towards men, I will have hate towards men, I will want a big ego so I won't have to feel inferior, I will always have war with men. Or I can learn to let go of small things and be like okay if that makes you happy. When it comes to big matters which does not really involve ego then story is different. 

i know we have huge difference in our thinking, to you I will sound like a really old female who is almost a grandma lol but nothin new. I do have respect for you since you do stand by what you believe. Just don't get caught so badly in it, the way people get so caught up in the religion that they spend their whole life defending it instead of really following it. Fighting for injustice is a heroic thing but when this fight becomes an obsession then the problem starts. I have seen your comments under the basic of sikhi too long time ago , and they were all about women right so I kinda thought I knew you when I first saw your name here . I am sorry if I sad anything hurtful or super rude but my thinking is also the thinking of many Sikh women.

 

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And also despite all the difference, I have to salute you since majority of the time it's you against so many men on this forum but you still never dropped the argument. Most of the time admin have to ban the thread and If I have to argue with so many people I would just call it quits lol. So do have mad respect for that reason. 

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4 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

good to hear perspective of other sikh women as well.

Which will not always be right lol. And there are not many women on this forum but differences will always stay between two different culture since family influences us big time and both of us won't be totally right and at the same time both of us won't be all wrong. Oh well lol 

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2 hours ago, GurpreetKaur said:

And about me getting married and staying at home, it's 20th century you won't find housewives, it's old theme now. My situation can change anytime with waheguru ji's Kirpa.Thank you for your suggestion :). I have never seen any guy stopping a women to go out and work.

You do know WHY you have the freedom to go out and work and study to be an engineer now don't you?? Because without people speaking up to give women chance to have education and a career, you would have been EXPECTED to not pursue higher studies, marry young, stay at home and serve the husband.  You are only able to go to University and pursue a career as an Engineer now, because other women fought (yes with men) for women's rights to education and equal opportunity with employment. 

You can't on the one hand say that you don't want to argue and just want to be humble and drop ego by not fighting with men (which really sounds like you have just given up), and then complain that you are unable to find employment or be accepted into masters program.  There was a time when as a woman you would have no chance at all to do either, and it was men who said so.  You would have been seen as inferior, and not smart enough to do it.  You would have been told your place is in the kitchen at home and raising babies. And you would never have been given opportunities to even compete with men in that field at all let alone ever be placed in a workplace where you might have men working beneath you! (That would have been seen as scandalous)

If you want to just give up and not argue with men and don't care if you are seen as inferior then just get married and be a housewife, and serve your "Parmeshwar"--- I mean husband.  There is a HUGE difference between being humble and just accepting defeat / inferiority.  

Oppressors never give freedom to those oppressed, until those oppressed demand it. That is a quote I cant remember who it was by. 

Anyway this is way off topic of oral sex!!! Enough said. 

 

 

 

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13 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

@kdsingh80 I don't think that thug culture resulted from women working and studying. I think it was more likely that it resulted from illicit drug trade etc. And you said women STILL do all the work raising children. What I am advocating is EQUAL participation raising children by both Mother and Father. Bonding by BOTH parents and BOTH parents having chance to work as well. Either by alternating hours working schedules etc.  Of course it leaves less time for them to be together as a couple but it CAN be managed. Or if you happen to have other family members like grandparents who are retired and can also help out.

But the question is how Jamaican boys who were raised by strong independent women got attracted to thug culture, I am sure their mothers want them to be have career and families. The fact is majority of boys and girls are different physically and mentally what majority of boys will do be considered as manly while what majority of girls do will be considered as  girly

 

There is nothing wrong in theory of equal participation , but the fact is it is just an illusion for the majority, A large majority of Indian men from small towns and villages work in big cities or away from wives.can they even participate in housework? 

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11 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said:

But the question is how Jamaican boys who were raised by strong independent women got attracted to thug culture, I am sure their mothers want them to be have career and families. The fact is majority of boys and girls are different physically and mentally what majority of boys will do be considered as manly while what majority of girls do will be considered as  girly

 

There is nothing wrong in theory of equal participation , but the fact is it is just an illusion for the majority, A large majority of Indian men from small towns and villages work in big cities or away from wives.can they even participate in housework? 

When they are home yes. If they eat, then they can help do the dishes afterward. That way the husband and wife might actually have some time together. Instead of the wife being left to clean all the dishes while the husband watches tv or reads the newspaper etc. 

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8 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

You do know WHY you have the freedom to go out and work and study to be an engineer now don't you?? Because without people speaking up to give women chance to have education and a career, you would have been EXPECTED to not pursue higher studies, marry young, stay at home and serve the husband.  You are only able to go to University and pursue a career as an Engineer now, because other women fought (yes with men) for women's rights to education and equal opportunity with employment. 

You can't on the one hand say that you don't want to argue and just want to be humble and drop ego by not fighting with men (which really sounds like you have just given up), and then complain that you are unable to find employment or be accepted into masters program.  There was a time when as a woman you would have no chance at all to do either, and it was men who said so.  You would have been seen as inferior, and not smart enough to do it.  You would have been told your place is in the kitchen at home and raising babies. And you would never have been given opportunities to even compete with men in that field at all let alone ever be placed in a workplace where you might have men working beneath you! (That would have been seen as scandalous)

If you want to just give up and not argue with men and don't care if you are seen as inferior then just get married and be a housewife, and serve your "Parmeshwar"--- I mean husband.  There is a HUGE difference between being humble and just accepting defeat / inferiority.  

And there is a huge difference between being 

Oppressors never give freedom to those oppressed, until those oppressed demand it. That is a quote I cant remember who it was by. 

Anyway this is way off topic of oral sex!!! Enough said. 

 

 

 

Agree with what you say but by setting an example of so called justice, I will fail to set so many other examples which are above and beyond ego. 

When guru Amardas ji did not strike dattu ji back, he did not set an example of defeat. He did set an example of humility, humbleness, forgiving, dropping ego.

You are right there is difference between being humble and taking defeat. But a defeat will always always make you humble. That does not mean always take defeat but don't think that people who choose to stay quiet instead of fighting when someone refused to do what they want lost a war. They won an inner battle. 

Also if I let my husband walk front of me,call him hanji and tusi when he says tu to me,  and does not care that he would not do the dishes then that does not mean I have to be a housewife. My Aunty is a doctor and listen to my uncle like crazy, it's called respect. People go to gurdwara and do seva there, shoe seva is done too. They do it gain humbleness. 

I once read somewhere that treat your family like a Sangat. I know you would hate the idea of serving your husband but I don't. If I can't serve him, how can I do seva at gurdwara sahib and serve others.

 

We both are on an ego trip, my ego tells me hey you have to be a saint under all condition and you wanna be a warrior.  Getting rid of ego will always be hard but I did learn few things from you. Differences are apart but as a woman I do have respect for you especially when some people have been doing name callings  and sorry if anything was so rude. I am not a saint yet lol. 

 

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On 1/2/2016 at 4:09 PM, Xylitol said:

Saints of different dharms including Sikh dharm consider it to be a huge paap. So the answer is no. People who answer yes are thinking with their sense-pleasure seeking mind rather than any spiritual understanding or desire for knowing truth. 

This is a Gurmukh's way of thinking and answers the question of the op.

Thanks paaji

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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25 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

 

I once read somewhere that treat your family like a Sangat. I know you would hate the idea of serving your husband but I don't. If I can't serve him, how can I do seva at gurdwara sahib and serve others.

 

This is where you are wrong. I would do anything for my husband. It's not about not serving him or not.  It's about how disheartened and hurt I would feel if he felt the one person Waheguru has brought to him to spend his life with, did not also deserve the same respect from him.  Otherwise why be with him? I didn't get married to have a master. I got married to have a life partner, so we can help each other on the same path.  Sometimes I lead sometimes he leads.  Sometimes we walk side by side.  

I personally think husbands who leave the dishes after a meal to go sit on their butt and watch tv, leaving their wife with all the work (because they view menial tasks as women's work) to be s huge disrespect to the wife. Sure its not wrong of the wife to still do them. She may even feel happy doing them and serving him. But it doesn't change that it is a huge huge huge disrespect to her by her husband. And it shows her how he views her... his personal servant. Most couples now both work. And even if they dont both work, the husband still ate the meal she prepared lovingly for him. Least he can do is scrub a few dishes so they get done faster and she can have more free time to spend WITH HIM! 

--- Again this was way off topic. Lets go back to the original post:

As for the original post. My thoughts are:

If you want to practice abstinence don't get married at all. You can't possibly have a platonic husband and wife relationship when you are acting like brother and sister. There just won't be that deeper intimacy and connection at all.

Sex in marriage is not just for making a baby. If you are that disgusted by a natural function why not just do IVF  Invitro Fertilization? Then privates don't even need to touch at all!  A single woman can even have a baby that way without sex!

Sex is NOT INHERENTLY SINFUL!  But it's being treated as such! We NEED to get away from this thought! Waheguru ji CREATED SEX as a means to express LOVE between a husband and wife.  Proof is in the fact that two people in love want to express that love physically. Not for mere physical pleasure but for the CLOSENESS and AFFECTION.  How can LOVE and AFFECTION be seen as SIN????????

It's NOT sex which is sinful.  It's MISUSE of sex which is sinful! The whole reason WHY it becomes sinful is not because sex is sinful!!!!! It's because then you have taken something which is meant to express love between two people and turned it into something trivial and for only physical pleasure. 

Sex is not only for producing a baby.  Otherwise, the fertilization rate would be 100% on first try!!! The mere fact that its not, shows that nature INTENDED (and therefore Waheguru intended) that it be done for more than just conception. Nature is encouraging couples to do this more than one time.  The couple share an intimacy and bond of LOVE AND AFFECTION each time. It brings them closer as a couple.  Yes it's possible to do this, while not planning to have a baby at that moment.

It's a FAR bigger sin to bring baby after baby into the world when they all can not b afforded monetarily etc. or that another pregnancy might kill the Mother etc. Family Planning has been said to be very much allowed in Sikhi. I looked at MANY MANY resources online and they ALL say family planning is fine. Sex between husband and wife is FINE as long as it stays between husband and wife only!!!!

In that context. One of expressing love with your spouse. Exploring each others bodies is perfectly fine. I don't see anything wrong with it.  It's still being done in LOVE AND AFFECTION between HUSBAND AND WIFE ONLY.  If the OP intended to ask about Oral Sex as a way to have relations prior to or outside marriage they are sorely mistaken.

If people like Paapiman dislike sex. Fine they can choose to be celibate. But don't get married and try to be a celibate!  Just do everyone a favour and remain alone. Practice asceticism etc whatever your fancy is.  But know that those things are NOT what bring you to God.  Gurbani says so!!!  In fact I think a husband and wife in a healthy marriage, have MUCH more chance to find God together working to help each other along the way... even if they have sex every night ahahahah than a person who goes tot he woods and remains alone to avoid sex... something created by Waheguru Ji... as a show of being 'Holier than Thou'  

 

 

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On 1/5/2016 at 7:55 PM, Ragmaala said:

This is for the devotional audience:

Even some Sikh Saints do not utter the name of their "Master Saint" through their tongue.They usually refer to them as Baba Ji. Example, Sant Baba Ishar Singh Ji kaleran wale never uttered the name of his master, Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji with his tongue. He always referred to him as Baba Ji. This was a show of extreme respect.  One time, a Hindu saint came to visit Baba Ishar Singh Ji. During the conversation, the hindu saint asked, " aap ke guru ka kya naam hai ?"( who is your master ?) Baba Ji went into a divine mystic rapture. The nearby devotees then answered the Hindu saint.

Thanks for sharing brother.

Dhan Dhan Srimaan Sant Baba Ishar Singh jee Kaleranwale

Dhan Dhan Srimaan Sant Baba Nand Singh jee Kaleranwale

Dhan Dhan Dhan Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Rai Dev Bedi jee Maharaaj 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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