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On 1/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, MrDoaba said:

What about to strengthen the bond between man and wife? Sex is more than just for pleasure. If it is only for procreation, then why get married in the first place? It does not make sense logically. Why such importance on Anand Kaaraj or on married life? Why not just have babies out of wedlock?

Daas is going to reply to your posts via multiple posts, to avoid one long post. Hope you are fine with it brother.

Marriage bond can be strengthened in other ways (besides sexual activities) too.

The reason we cannot have babies out of wedlock is because it is a cardinal sin in Sikhism to have sexual contact outside of marriage. Kids, who are born out of a wedlock , well you know what they are known in Punjabi.

Anand Karaj/Marriage has many other important functions (besides procreation/sexual activities). Gurparsaad, Daas will make a separate post on it.

 

On 1/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, MrDoaba said:

Science is so advanced now, why don't people use that to produce children? Because according to what you're saying, sex is now obsolete.

Well, a Sikh couple can do that if they want. But, IMHO, the natural way would be better. There might be some advantages to the natural way. Very interesting point though, which needs to be researched more.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 1/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, MrDoaba said:

Now I'm confused. So Guru Sahib has given permission to enjoy sex for pleasure?

You do have a good point about wasting energy. But many people waste energy on other things too, such is unavoidable in grist jeevan.

Sex can also have a spiritual component.

Warning: Mature Content below. 

What I meant was...if you keep in mind that our Satgurus gave us permission.....

Sikhism encourages people to not waste their vital energy and use that energy for Naam Simran and Seva. Sexual ejaculation for a male is a very devastating activity for the body. Daas heard in the katha (by Pandit Jagjit Singh jee Harkhowal) that male ejaculation is equivalent to the crushing of a sugarcane to obtain the juice. That is how much damage it does to the male's body.

Agreed that sex has a spiritual component to it, but that does not give us (Sikhs) permission to enjoy it for pleasure/fun. Alcohol has its benefits (even some spiritual people have used it in the past to assist them in their meditation), but you cannot deny that it is prohibited in Sikhism.

Concepts/ideas have pros and cons to it. We have to analyze them under the lens of Gurmat.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 1/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, MrDoaba said:

Lastly you seem to be making a huge assumption that every Sikh is reaching for Brahmgyaanihood, which if you look at reality, is never gonna happen.

It is not possible for every Sikh to become a Brahamgyani, but you can always strive for it. With the greatest master (Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj) as our guru, who could turn dacoits, killers, womanizers, fanatics, sinners, impostors, etc into Saints, Daas would say that we should keep our hopes high of at least being blessed with the company of a Brahamgyani.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 1/2/2018 at 8:56 PM, MrDoaba said:

Sexual repression can be dangerous, and can have damaging personal and social consequences.

This is what Daas wrote in my first post for this topic.

"Having said the above, it is a fact that suppressing sexual feelings can lead to psychological problems for some people. Thereby, case by case analysis might be required at times."

Bro, you are talking about exceptional cases. A similar situation might come up with terms of alcohol or animal fats. An ailing person might need medication, containing alcohol or animals fats in it, to recover from a serious illness. Such exceptional cases cannot define the fundamentals of faith.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 1/2/2018 at 8:56 PM, MrDoaba said:

Those who practise celibacy, married or not, Rishis or not, practise it not because sex is a sin/bad/evil, but because it's not compatible with their preferred lifestyle. They see it a a hindrance to their specific goals, goals I might add, which the majority are not aiming for nor intend to.

Sikh males will restraint from sexual activities because they are damaging to the physical/mental/spiritual well being of the body and above all, it is the hukam of Maharaaj. ਜਤੁ is very important in Sikhism as Maharaaj says.

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥

On 1/2/2018 at 8:56 PM, MrDoaba said:

To promote it as unquestionable doctrine is a complete misrepresentation of grist jeevan in Sikhi.

To promote sexual/carnal desires (including within marriage) for pleasure/fun would be a great insult to Sikhism.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 1/2/2018 at 1:06 PM, MrDoaba said:

So that means having sex for the purpose of procreation is also a sin which is even more ridiculous.

So, how is it ridiculous? The sin is being done, not to enjoy with your wife, but for procreation. The intention matters. 

A sin can be committed for a greater purpose. Suppose, if you can save someone's life or honor, by saying a lie, wouldn't you do it? It won't change the fact that you committed the sin of lying, but you did so for a greater cause and thereby earned merits for it. The merits far outweigh the sin in this case.

Do you think food can arrive on our tables without sin? 

As Daas said earlier, it is very hard to escape sin (in many cases). We can only strive to minimize them (or commit them for a greater good) as much as we can, with the assistance of God's grace. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 1/2/2018 at 8:56 PM, MrDoaba said:

It does not define the faith. It is not a fundemental of the faith. Nor is it an absolute necessity. And it certainly isn't a core teaching for those who choose grist jeevan

The point is simple. Wining over (or transforming) sexual desire is one of the core principles of Sikhsim.

We cannot use religion to justify our weaknesses and desires. If I cannot follow Bibek Rehat (due to my bloody tongue which wants to savor different pleasures), it is my personal weakness. It does not give me the right to say that Bibek Rehat is optional in Sikhism or that it is not a part of Sikhism. The fact is that I am not strong (spiritually) enough to follow it. The sin of eating food prepared/donated by Nigure will still stand. 

If a Sikh couple wants to have sex (as they cannot control themselves), don't use the greatest religion (Sikhism) to justify your carnal desires. Our greatest Gurus did not allow sexual acts (which are performed by animals too) in marriage for fun/pleasure.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 06/01/2018 at 5:02 PM, paapiman said:

Daas is going to reply to your posts via multiple posts, to avoid one long post. Hope you are fine with it brother.

Marriage bond can be strengthened in other ways (besides sexual activities) too.

The reason we cannot have babies out of wedlock is because it is a cardinal sin in Sikhism to have sexual contact outside of marriage. Kids, who are born out of a wedlock , well you know what they are known in Punjabi.

I'm fine with it bro. Although I would rather you kept it to one post as multiple posts are in fact longer.

Do elaborate.

Fair enough, I agree it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage. Marriage is a man made construct, as is virginity and purity, and Sikhi agrees with these. So if we use logic (which Sikhi uses a lot of), marriage serves many purposes beyond having kids, one being sex. Otherwise sex outside of marriage wouldn't be a sin.

On 06/01/2018 at 5:17 PM, paapiman said:

Sikhism encourages people to not waste their vital energy and use that energy for Naam Simran and Seva. Sexual ejaculation for a male is a very devastating activity for the body. Daas heard in the katha (by Pandit Jagjit Singh jee Harkhowal) that male ejaculation is equivalent to the crushing of a sugarcane to obtain the juice. That is how much damage it does to the male's body.

I agree the energy could be better spent elsewhere but it doesn't make it a sin.

On 06/01/2018 at 5:17 PM, paapiman said:

Agreed that sex has a spiritual component to it, but that does not give us (Sikhs) permission to enjoy it for pleasure/fun. Alcohol has its benefits (even some spiritual people have used it in the past to assist them in their meditation), but you cannot deny that it is prohibited in Sikhism.

I would disagree here because I believe sex is a fundamental human need. Alcohol is not.

On 06/01/2018 at 5:29 PM, paapiman said:

Bro, you are talking about exceptional cases. A similar situation might come up with terms of alcohol or animal fats. An ailing person might need medication, containing alcohol or animals fats in it, to recover from a serious illness. Such exceptional cases cannot define the fundamentals of faith.

 

Not really. Look at the Catholic Church. Many examples of sex crimes are committed by those with some form of sexual repression. Many sex scandals have so called celibate Babas invloved. For the majority of people there needs to be some balance of sexual activity.

On 06/01/2018 at 5:43 PM, paapiman said:

Sikh males will restraint from sexual activities because they are damaging to the physical/mental/spiritual well being of the body and above all, it is the hukam of Maharaaj. ਜਤੁ is very important in Sikhism as Maharaaj says.

ਜਤੁ ਪਾਹਾਰਾ ਧੀਰਜੁ ਸੁਨਿਆਰੁ ॥

First of all why only Sikh males? Secondly posting one tuk isn't going to prove your point mate. Thirdly say I did indulge your posting of Gurbani out of context, why only sexual activity, ਜਤੁ isn't just about sex. If one completely overcame their senses then there would be no procreation either because in case you didn't know, in order to have sexual relations you there needs to be sexual attraction. The fact that sex can be pleasurable is essential for the continuation of mankind. Do you really think if it wasn't people would still be able to have kids? No I don't think so.

On 06/01/2018 at 5:43 PM, paapiman said:

To promote sexual/carnal desires (including within marriage) for pleasure/fun would be a great insult to Sikhism.

I have in none of my posts promoted it. I'm simply refuting your ridiculous theories.

On 06/01/2018 at 6:03 PM, paapiman said:

So, how is it ridiculous? The sin is being done, not to enjoy with your wife, but for procreation. The intention matters. 

I must reiterate you are the only one saying it's a sin. You have no evidence to back it up whatsoever. And don't say xyz Baba said so. I care little. To say sex is a sin is one thing but to say that sex even for procreation is a sin is verging on blasphemy.

As for your intentions comment, that is by far the most Abrahamic thing you have said. Muslims reguarly say that the intention is all that counts in all matters spiritual or otherwise. I could say it was my intention to go to the Gurdwara but go to the pub instead. Doesn't mean anything.

On 06/01/2018 at 6:03 PM, paapiman said:

Do you think food can arrive on our tables without sin?

What does this have to do with sex?

On 06/01/2018 at 6:22 PM, paapiman said:

The point is simple. Wining over (or transforming) sexual desire is one of the core principles of Sikhsim.

No, winning over or transforming lust is. Lust is not equivalent to all sexual behaviour as a whole. Lust is an obsession or excessive desire. It must be kept under control. If humans completely rid themselves of any and all sexual attraction/impulses, the human race would come to an end.

On 06/01/2018 at 6:22 PM, paapiman said:

We cannot use religion to justify our weaknesses and desires. If I cannot follow Bibek Rehat (due to my bloody tongue which wants to savor different pleasures), it is my personal weakness. It does not give me the right to say that Bibek Rehat is optional in Sikhism or that it is not a part of Sikhism. The fact is that I am not strong (spiritually) enough to follow it. The sin of eating food prepared/donated by Nigure will still stand. 

I'm not doing that, you are, by trying to use religion to justify the contrary. Fact is you cannot prove sex is a sin nor can you prove that it is only for procreation.

On 06/01/2018 at 6:22 PM, paapiman said:

If a Sikh couple wants to have sex (as they cannot control themselves), don't use the greatest religion (Sikhism) to justify your carnal desires. Our greatest Gurus did not allow sexual acts (which are done by animals too) in marriage for fun/pleasure.

Similarly I could say don't use Sikhi to justify a point of view which has no basis.

 

I strongly suggest you consult an Jyotish practitioner before deciding to get married.

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9 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Fair enough, I agree it's a sin to have sex outside of marriage. Marriage is a man made construct, as is virginity and purity, and Sikhi agrees with these. So if we use logic (which Sikhi uses a lot of), marriage serves many purposes beyond having kids, one being sex. Otherwise sex outside of marriage wouldn't be a sin.

Sikhi is beyond logic too.

I would disagree here because I believe sex is a fundamental human need. 

It will become a fundamental need if you don't follow the Sikh Rehat/Gurbani. We are not talking about ordinary humans here. We are talking about a Sikh fundamental which applies mainly to Sikhs. Mostly spiritually evolved souls get the golden opportunity to be born in Sikh families. 

Not really. Look at the Catholic Church. Many examples of sex crimes are committed by those with some form of sexual repression. Many sex scandals have so called celibate Babas invloved. For the majority of people there needs to be some balance of sexual activity.

Many sex crimes are also committed by people who have had previous consensual sexual relations in their life. Rape has occurred in marriages too. So how will you explain that? Sexual repression will not always lead to criminal activities.

First of all why only Sikh males?

Daas is not sure how much sexual activities can damage a female body. Daas is 100% certain that they are very damaging to a male's body

Secondly posting one tuk isn't going to prove your point mate.

Read the post on pg.4 by Soulfinder jee. There are so many tuks which can prove that sexual desire is harmful to us. Gurbani doesn't specify (in most places) that those verses only apply to non-married couples.

To say sex is a sin is one thing but to say that sex even for procreation is a sin is verging on blasphemy.

How does blasphemy even come into it? 

The example of the food on the table was given to make the idea of sin more clearer. If I believe that food arrives on my table with sin associated with it (which is a fact and can be proven easily), am I verging on blasphemy? That does not make sense at all. Remember that food is way more of a basic human necessity than sex.

As for your intentions comment, that is by far the most Abrahamic thing you have said. Muslims reguarly say that the intention is all that counts in all matters spiritual or otherwise. I could say it was my intention to go to the Gurdwara but go to the pub instead. Doesn't mean anything.

Well, you are not a baby who was picked up by some adult and taken to a pub. How will end up at the pub, if your intention was to go to the Gurudwara? If you were infected by a Vikar on the way (or your friends convinced you to go to the pub instead), then that was your weakness. The intention has to be honest too. 

No, winning over or transforming lust is. Lust is not equivalent to all sexual behaviour as a whole. Lust is an obsession or excessive desire. It must be kept under control.

Kaam is the word repeatedly used in Gurbani. It refers to all types of desires (including sexual ones). Kaam does not refer to an obsession or an excessive desire. There is a separate word used for excessive desire in Gurbani, which is "Tarishna". 

If humans completely rid themselves of any and all sexual attraction/impulses, the human race would come to an end.

Let's talk about Sikhs (Amritdhaaris). Non-Sikhs will keep procreating. Not all Sikhs will reach Brahamgyan or are Brahamgyanis. So, the procreation process via natural way will continue.

Do you think people cannot procreate using other technologies, other than sexual intercourse? Did you read the sakhi on the first page (the fourth post for this topic) from the life of First Master?

I'm not doing that, you are, by trying to use religion to justify the contrary. Fact is you cannot prove sex is a sin nor can you prove that it is only for procreation.

Can you prove that Gurbani explicitly permits sex for pleasure? No, you cannot. Proving it the other way, is so easy, even for a teen.   

I strongly suggest you consult an Jyotish practitioner before deciding to get married.

Daas has access to the master of all Jyotishs - The one and only - Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj.

 

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5 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

The fact that sex can be pleasurable is essential for the continuation of mankind. Do you really think if it wasn't people would still be able to have kids? No I don't think so.

So you are saying that if sex was not pleasurable, couples will not perform the act for procreation (have kids)? Even if sex was painful, people would still do it for procreation. Pregnancy is a very painful period in the life of a woman. That does not stop them from having kids.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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