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paapiman

Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee Series - Charitar #3

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19 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

By adjust I mean, two people get married and they eventually start loving each other. Maybe I don't think that far about old men marrying young women. Where I live, it does not work that way. So, I don't go for Muslim women and think about them since they read Quran which is already have their plenty of flaws. I am in my mid 20s and I have never seen a forced type of wedding so I don't know.

But when this was written, arranged marriages with little or no choice were common... so it's not hard to imagine that was the situation. Ask ANY young girl if she wants to marry an ugly old fat guy who has nothing in common with her and could be her father or grandfather in age?? I would say 99.9% would be so grossed out they'd NEVER consider it.  Having sex with a grandpa, when you are young is just creepy and gross. You can't get around it. That's why given the description in the story, even though it doesn't say it, it certainly intimates that she does not want to be with the old guy and never did, and so she pursued her actual love. Was the adultery still wrong? yes. I think I would have just run away or killed myself.  If I was born with the will I have now... I would have run away before even marrying the old guy and my parents would never have heard from me again. 

My points about the Chritropakhyan though are they are written in a way which deliberately makes the woman out to be at fault and the men to be gullible fools (victims). I don't think following your heart and being with the one you love, makes her a slut. Even if she was forced into a loveless yucky marriage with a grandpa.

I think they are all at fault. Grandpa should have known to never marry a younger women. Its not fair to her. The younger lover should know not to pursue someone he is not married to and she should have never agreed to marry the old fart, regardless what her parents said etc. They are all victims in a way... and it's the cultural situation which was at fault. 

 

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But one thing is obvious that if a woman is young and pretty, she has more control over an old man. She can very easily control him. I once watched a video about a lady hiring a hitman and when she got caught and arrested, all she was doing kept saying to her husband come here see me once, we can talk through it. If he would have gone to meet her, chances are he might would forgiven her cuz she was pretty and knew how to trap him lol.

I do agree, no woman can never be with someone she does not wish too lol. But if I am in her place, I would play no games and be like you disguise me get away from me. He's old and if he's crazy for me, I have more control over him. Men hav control over women too, women are emotional and any man can win her trust by showing hey I am here for you. I am going to Tibet I think, I always wanted to be a monk growing up lol

you are not wrong, in your terms you are right too. 

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11 minutes ago, GurpreetKaur said:

But one thing is obvious that if a woman is young and pretty, she has more control over an old man. She can very easily control him. I once watched a video about a lady hiring a hitman and when she got caught and arrested, all she was doing kept saying to her husband come here see me once, we can talk through it. If he would have gone to meet her, chances are he might would forgiven her cuz she was pretty and knew how to trap him lol.

I do agree, no woman can never be with someone she does not wish too lol. But if I am in her place, I would play no games and be like you disguise me get away from me. He's old and if he's crazy for me, I have more control over him. Men hav control over women too, women are emotional and any man can win her trust by showing hey I am here for you. I am going to Tibet I think, I always wanted to be a monk growing up lol

you are not wrong, in your terms you are right too. 

I have to disagree on the woman having control over the older man... think back to that time, women were told husbands were 'God' over them. Meaning in authority over. Meaning she would have been told her was her boos, what he said goes etc. That's a position of fear to be the one in the subordinate position.  Some Indian women still are told this to this day!  My guess is he could easily have 'Lorded it' over her... using threat of physical harm. And I doubt an older man could as easily have the wool pulled over his eyes as described in this story!  Remember he's been around for awhile... 

 

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What about powerful women in history then Satkiran?

 

Noor Jahan 

Mooran (and Maharaja Ranjit Singh)

Rani Jind Kaur

Mai Bhago

Cleopatra

etc. etc.

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20 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

think back to that time, women were told husbands were 'God' over them. Meaning in authority over.

There is some very good reasons why they were taught this. But I don't think you will find out unless you do the experiment yourself.

Go try it.

You are married. You trust your husband, right?

Start considering your husband as God. Give him authority, and see what he does with it.

At first he will be suspicious why you are doing this but let it sink into him. I guarantee you there will be a shift in his behaviour.

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8 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

There is some very good reasons why they were taught this. But I don't think you will find out unless you do the experiment yourself.

Go try it.

You are married. You trust your husband, right?

Start considering your husband as God. Give him authority, and see what he does with it.

At first he will be suspicious why you are doing this but let it sink into him. I guarantee you there will be a shift in his behaviour.

In happy with him treating me as his equal. I like to have equal authority decision making and do not consider him to be above me. I like that he respects my wishes and that he will do things I ask him to as well. And I like that we can both chose not to and know the other won't force us to 'obey' 

We are both human souls and equal. That doesn't mean we don't respect each other.  I just don't want to be a subordinate. And I could never have sex with someone who i considered to be my boss. So for that experiment, all intimacy would have to end... 

Either I can consider him to be my loving partner OR a boss in authority over me.. But not both. 

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14 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

What about powerful women in history then Satkiran?

 

Noor Jahan 

Mooran (and Maharaja Ranjit Singh)

Rani Jind Kaur

Mai Bhago

Cleopatra

etc. etc.

We were talking about what the likely background to this charitars is... Why a younger woman would be having sex wth an older man who she considered old and fat. 

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2 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

In happy with him treating me as his equal. I like to have equal authority decision making and do not consider him to be above me. We are both human. That doesn't mean we don't respect each other.  I just don't want to be a subordinate. And I could never have sex with someone who i considered to be my boss. So for that experiment, all intimacy would have to end... 

You are being like those people who deny meditation or OBE. You've probably met these guys. They have all sorts of nonsensical ideas about what meditation is or what OBE is. 

What do you say to them?

You say, you won't know until you actually try it.

It's the same with you.

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11 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

You are being like those people who deny meditation or OBE. You've probably met these guys. They have all sorts of nonsensical ideas about what meditation is or what OBE is. 

What do you say to them?

You say, you won't know until you actually try it.

It's the same with you.

I can't try your experiment unless I stop intimacy with him. I can't separate work and marriage. If he is to be my "boss" then I would never be able to be naked with him again. It would kill the intimacy. 

I didn't get married to work under a boss... I got married to have a respectful and loving partner both ways. And using your analogy why can't the man also treat her as God??? And give her authority over him??? Hunh???

please leave what works for us... We are very happy and trust me there is no lack of respect or love in either direction. As a subordinate I would never feel fulfilled... I'd feel inadequate and weak. And like he didn't respect my skills and abilities and opinions. That all his would be what matters. Even if he said the opposite or asked me for my input the very fact that his say would be last say all the time , I'd feel like I was trapped inferior and didn't matter. 

 

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29 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Either I can consider him to be my loving partner OR a boss in authority over me.. But not both. 

satkirin, try it as an experiment, consider him a boss in authority over you, you can deny him the sex.. do it for a month...arent you anyways away from him ? treat him like God & boss over the phone, but dont let him on the experiment.

just do it for science purposes, and let us know what you find. :)

@Satkirin_Kaur@BhagatSingh

nvm...i didnt read your above post... you are scared to try it lol

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18 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

satkirin, try it as an experiment, consider him a boss in authority over you, you can deny him the sex.. do it for a month...arent you anyways away from him ? treat him like God & boss over the phone, but dont let him on the experiment.

just do it for science purposes, and let us know what you find. :)

@Satkirin_Kaur@BhagatSingh

It won't work... Because he sees me as his equal he will not try to order me around anyway. We already ask each other what our thoughts are in things... He wouldn't feel comfortable making all the decisions for both of us without knowing if it's what I want too. And I already go with his decision most times simply because it's what we both want anyway. But I still have rights to refuse. Same as he does. 

 Practically speaking we already do BOTH treat each other this way... So there is no practical way to do an experiment except to tell him not to do anything he would consider as being what I want and then he'd know something was up... He would never be able to see me as his subordinate. Same as I could never see him as my boss. 

 

Case in point we went to a restaurant in Srinagar.. A Chinese one. I wanted spring rolls, he didn't. He tried to get me to choose something different but I really wanted spring rolls. I eventually caved and told him to pick something else then. I was so hungry then that I really didn't care what he picked either... So authority was in his hands at that point. Know what he did?? Got the spring rolls... He couldn't decide on making me eat something I didn't really want. So when I gave him the 'authority' to make that decision he couldn't actually use it anyway and went with what I chose anyway. 

But then we also got the soup he wanted on my insistence and we split both between both of us so it worked out...  :) 

 

my problem isn't with the wife necessarily treating her husband like a King (I don't like using God because no human is God) but I don't see why husbands cant also treat their wives the same way. And I don't see why authority always must be one way where wife obeys husband and never the other way around. In fact I don't think marriage should be about who barks orders and who follows. 

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14 minutes ago, N30 S!NGH said:

I always wondered about this, what exactly is 405th charitar. When this supposed to revealed. Why is it hidden. Can anyone please shed some light on this 

This is my opinion, I might be wrong.

This 405th charitar might be a personalized charitar that may happen to any one of us here, or will happen or has happened already.

Maybe a final exam by Guru to test his sikhs, to see if they learnt anything or are we just dumbasses?

Even sants and bhagats have to pass the charitar by maya. following come to mind:

- buddha

- bhagat kabir

- baba nand singh

- baba harnam singh rampur khera

maya tried to entice above guys in a form of beaitiful lady to test them, but they passed with flying colors, and got great padvis

i might be wrong, but thats what i think :)   any other thoughts ? @N30 S!NGH@samurai

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Lucky said:

Do any of you guys view the charitars in deeper spiritual contexts?? ..or maybe I'm going loopy? ;)

Personally, I usually read and try to think of what quality or dhoot is being represented by characters. In most of them, and in this one, the woman could be maya. How maya can sometimes convince you of how loved and great you are and yet at the same time she's fooling you and having you play around in the drama of life. 

Most of dasam bani and Guruji's works are given for us to see the truth in them and NOT to judge them at surface levels on whether men do this, did that or did the story really happen or not. For example, the Ramayan recited in detail is not to endorse whether the myth of ram and sita is true or not, but it's the message.  .. If you look at the whole story carefully, you may see that Ram represents the True Lord in his purest form. When he is born of Das-rath (represents 10 indries), then he is bound in human kapra. Thus falls in love with physical roop/beauty of maya-Mann (when mind is drenched in maya) this is Sita. Remember that SIta is not born of human and comes and dies to the earth of Mother-maya-nature..............you see what I'm getting at?    ... Because I really don't think myths like that were reiterated by Guruji to prove whether the stories took place or not, but were given to knock some truthful messages into us moorakhs.

In the case of this one especially I think trying to pull some metaphorical spiritual meaning from it is a bit of a stretch. 

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@ragmaala @N30 S!NGH... the charitra that was left out was charitra of maya..how maya works etc..It is said that maharaj will reveal it when there is khalsa raj  apparently lasts for 20000 years in which there will be satyug in kaliyug..

@Lucky  .. im with you on this one...charitropakiyan is also referred to as turiya (bhuddi) charitras... some are obviously what you see is what you get as in this one an unfaithfull wife, blinded husband and immoral playboy lol..

the charitras have stories of unfaithful men and women and stories of homosexuals.

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1 hour ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

It won't work...

That's why it's called an experiment. It's something you do to find out what happens. After you do it, only then you are in the position of saying whether it works or not.

Like if somebody doesn't meditate, and you say to them if you meditate you feel calm. It's possible that that dude is already really chill and won't feel any more laid back. But it's also possible that no matter how relaxed he was, he gets even more relaxed.

You are saying I am super chill, I don't need meditation. But what if you become ultra mega chill. ;)

giphy.gif

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

nvm...i didnt read your above post... you are scared to try it lol

Lol bro I think that kind of thing only works on us (men).

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17 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

That's why it's called an experiment. It's something you do to find out what happens. After you do it, only then you are in the position of saying whether it works or not.

Like if somebody doesn't meditate, and you say to them if you meditate you feel calm. It's possible that that dude is already really chill and won't feel any more laid back. But it's also possible that no matter how relaxed he was, he gets even more relaxed.

You are saying I am super chill, I don't need meditation. But what if you become ultra mega chill. ;)

giphy.gif

Lol bro I think that kind of thing only works on us (men).

OMG thats hard on the eyes!!! LOL

No it won't work because I would actually have to tell him to purposely NOT do anything that he would think I would want, and to purposely order me around. Then he would know something was wrong.

He doesn't want to order me around. He values me as an actual person with equal input. He doesn't want a doormat! He would actually feel like he was degrading me if we were in that position. He wouldn't WANT me to be his subordinate. We've spoken about these things at length LONG before being married... precisely because I never wanted to marry a controlling man and completely lose myself to become someone else's servant.  Having said that I care what he wants too... I just don't want to ever be in position where I have NO say and that only he does. That degrades me as a human... 

 

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6 hours ago, samurai said:

@ragmaala @N30 S!NGH... the charitra that was left out was charitra of maya..how maya works etc..It is said that maharaj will reveal it when there is khalsa raj  apparently lasts for 20000 years in which there will be satyug in kaliyug..

 

Bro, one Charitar is missing. Where did you hear that it was left out?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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So my final analysis of this one is:

Lesson is for parents: don't force young daughters into marriage with fat old ugly grandpas who they want nothing to do with because women will still follow her heart, young men will still follow their penises and the old fart will be made fool of. Though he should have known to never marry a young woman who could be his granddaughter anyway because that's just creepy and gross. The fault is on the old guy really for ever marrying her and for her parents forcing her into such a marriage. She should have just run away before the wedding... The girl is really the victim in this.

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36 minutes ago, N30 S!NGH said:

I think we had good discussion on this specific charitar. Paapiman, can you post another charitar on new thread for discussion.

Relax Shera..........there is plenty more in this Charitar. Please give me sometime.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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