History of DG Examined...

[Ragmaala]

3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Satkiran have you actually read charitarpkyian? If you did there are stories of men who are stupid. Of men who are sexual fiends. Of men who do the worst things. In charitarpkyian they have stories of women doing glorious things and noble things. You don't know shit about charitarpkyian.

Charitarpkyian means the characters of humans.

goodluck brother ! lol

[CdnSikhGirl]

8 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Satkiran have you actually read charitarpkyian? If you did there are stories of men who are stupid. Of men who are sexual fiends. Of men who do the worst things. In charitarpkyian they have stories of women doing glorious things and noble things. You don't know shit about charitarpkyian.

Charitarpkyian means the characters of humans.

Tn why would 5 out of 6 early rhetnamas condem women as deceivers and sluts? And actually instruct men to distrust ALL women? And just coincidentally, this is the picture that emerges from reading the Charitropakhyan. These instruction are from Singhs who were close to Guru Ji. So if they are respected as being so close to Guru Ji, then what they say much be correct? And that must be what the message is from Charitropakhyan that Guru Ji was trying to get across. That we women should never be trusted by any of you because we are the 'embodiment of deceit'.  This is how Guru Gobind Singh JI sees us!

Again I'll ask you: Would you rather betold by your Guru that you are stupid for trusting women, or would rather be told that your very nature is deceitful and slutty and that you should never be trusted??? Out of 404 charitars, there maybe 5-6 that show women in not such a bad light. But the fact remains that the early rhetnamas actually instruct men to treat women badly as deceitful immoral and never to trust women at all even those close to them. Then how can you say that's somehow NOT the message that Charitropakhyan is driving home!

 

[Singh123456777]

3 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

goodluck brother ! lol

The truth will prevail 

[Ragmaala]

Just now, Singh123456777 said:

The truth will prevail 

May the Shakti be with you!

[paapiman]

10 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

I don't believe in that translation. Will either need original transcript, or just dismiss it plainly. 

Which translation brother? The one which says not to entrust a secret to women?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

Just now, paapiman said:

Which translation brother? The one which says not to entrust a secret to women?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

yea, where it says do not trust your own woman... i find that hard to take in esp if thats your wife

[Ragmaala]

maybe we need to understand the context... i dunno

somethings are ridiculous like not throwing washed away water at sun..

I usually am not a fan of rehitnamas. I blame my own buddhi,  simply follows basics stuff and stuff from sants mahapurakhs. No need to go into details into rehitnamas.

This is the reasons Sants are sent down to earth, to re-emphasize proper maryada. Like Baba Nand Singh Ji & Baba Ishar Singh Ji did, respect for Guru Granth Sahib & Amrit Sanchar for everyone, kids, women included.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Just now, Ragmaala said:

maybe we need to understand the context... i dunno

somethings are ridiculous like not throwing washed away water at sun..

I usually am not a fan of rehitnamas. I blame my own buddhi,  simply follows basics stuff and stuff from sants mahapurakhs. No need to go into details into rehitnamas.

This is the reasons Sants are sent down to earth, to re-emphasize proper maryada. Like Baba Nand Singh Ji & Baba Ishar Singh Ji did, respect for Guru Granth Sahib & Amrit Sanchar for everyone, kids, women included.

Except... is Chaupa Singh considered a Sant? IS what he reiterated the truth? He was close to Guru Ji. Does it mean that is what Guru Ji wanted? And if Charitropakhyan was not meant to instill this idea that women are deceivers (or not all women) then why would he say that men are never to trust any women even his own wife? If Guru Ji thought this about us, I don't want to be female anymore.

[paapiman]

13 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

yea, where it says do not trust your own woman... i find that hard to take in esp if thats your wife

Bro, there are reasons behind it.

• Women are emotional beings
• On average, men can keep secrets/confidential information better than women
• On average, women gossip/talk more than men, which implies a greater chance of leaking information
• They go through mood swings/menses, which can affect their mental clarity/concentration

You have more knowledge of biology than me. You should know this better than me.

The Singhs, who wrote Rehatnamay, were Sants/Brahamgyanis too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[CdnSikhGirl]

^^^^^^^^^^^ See this is what I mean!  How horrible a person has to be to treat us like that! Besides emotions (and men have them too they are just taught not to show them) the rest absolute BS! It's crap created by men to justify reasons to treat us bad.

 

[Ragmaala]

@paapiman  Help me understand this

What kind of information should a Gursikh Husband withhold from His Gursikh Wife ? Examples ?

Thanks!

 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

Just now, Ragmaala said:

@paapiman  Help me understand this

What kind of information should a Gursikh Husband withhold from His Gursikh Wife ? Examples ?

Thanks!

Gurparsaad, will provide examples. Please give me sometime.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Singh123456777]

5 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

Tn why would 5 out of 6 early rhetnamas condem women as deceivers and sluts? And actually instruct men to distrust ALL women? And just coincidentally, this is the picture that emerges from reading the Charitropakhyan. These instruction are from Singhs who were close to Guru Ji. So if they are respected as being so close to Guru Ji, then what they say much be correct? And that must be what the message is from Charitropakhyan that Guru Ji was trying to get across. That we women should never be trusted by any of you because we are the 'embodiment of deceit'.  This is how Guru Gobind Singh JI sees us!

Again I'll ask you: Would you rather betold by your Guru that you are stupid for trusting women, or would rather be told that your very nature is deceitful and slutty and that you should never be trusted??? Out of 404 charitars, there maybe 5-6 that show women in not such a bad light. But the fact remains that the early rhetnamas actually instruct men to treat women badly as deceitful immoral and never to trust women at all even those close to them. Then how can you say that's somehow NOT the message that Charitropakhyan is driving home!

 

Again you are wrong about saying all early rehitnamas were sexist.

http://sarbattkhalsa.weebly.com/bhai-daya-singh-ji-rehatnama.html

This is Bhai daya Singh rehitnamas. You can read it and try to see what's sexist about it.

http://sarbattkhalsa.weebly.com/tanakhanama---bhai-nand-lal.html

This is Bhai nand all jis rehitnamas. Where is the sexism in here?

http://sarbattkhalsa.weebly.com/bhai-prahlad-singh-ji-rehitnama.html

Again this is Bhai prahlad Singh rehitnamas. Please find the sexism here.

 

So did you pull out the 5 out of six rehitnamas you say are sexist out of your ass?

[Singh123456777]

This composition highlights the various faces of woman. While the positive roles played by woman as a wife, as a mother, as a soldier are outlined, the negative aspect of some women who stoop to lowly activities has also been brought out.

 

It begins by elucidating the extreme bravery and courage of Devi Bhagwati and highlights her various deeds of glory. This is followed by the various positive ways in which women contribute to the welfare of their families in particular and society in general. The examples are drawn from the Mahabharata, Puranas, Brihat Katha, Katha Sahitya Saagar, Alif Laila, Ayaarey Dayish and other comtemporary literature. On reading about the various characters included in this composition one also gets an insight into the culture, tradition and values of the society and region of which they are a part.

 

Thus, through the given examples, Guru Ji has formulated a very strong value system for the reader, laying down rules to be upheld and followed by both men and women so that a society free from all mortal sins may be formed.

 

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=109:charitropakhyan&catid=53:introduction-to-dasam-banees&Itemid=93

 

[Singh123456777]

Contents and Purpose

 

An introduction to different banis in Sri Dasam Granth

 

Created with the aim of waging a war of righteousness the Dasam Granth is that unique and unforgettable offering to Indian culture which changed the very face of religion, society, infact the very nation. Guru Gobind Singh Ji made an appearance at that crucial point of Indian history when the glory of India had been debased by the bestial cruelties of foreign rulers and its own internal disputes. India, as one country, existed in name only.

 

In that terrible darkness, the tenth Guru, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji was born at Patna in 1666 AD as the embodiment of incomparable might and glorious spiritual radiance. At that time, religion had got mired in hollow ritualism, myths, superstition and fantasmagoric creations of heaven and hell. True religion had ceased to exist.

 

Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji had refuted and refused to accept all adynamic, parochial, and inhuman religious practices. In place of these he encouraged religious practices that upheld the universal good and well being. In order to preach and promote this reformation, he did not hesitate in sacrificing all he had. Sri Guru Arjun Dev Ji and Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji started the tradition of offering their very lives.

 

Finally, Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji gave manifestation to his goal for the well being of all humanity in the form of a religious war of righteousness which aimed at destroying the inhuman and cruel administrative system of times. It is through this great achievement that Guru Gobind Singh Ji emerges as one of the greatest Karam yogis in the chronicles of mankind.

 

Guru Gobind Singh Ji was a magnanimous soul. His vision, creation (the Khalsa) and his literary writing all have a common link that binds them together. He gave expression to the doctrinal ideology of Gurmat through his writings and as a further elaboration and extension of this ideology started a war for the freedom and upliftment of society. Thus devoting himself completely through mind, discourse and deeds Guru Ji totally transformed the very face of society.

 

With a view to create a society free from exploitation and tyranny, he spelt out his aim - "Dharam yudh ko chao" (Aspiration for a war of Righteousness) in the form of a literary masterpiece. And for the creation of such a society, the complete, ideal human being he envisioned was one who was imbued with absolute faith in the one and only Almighty God. His portrayal of the Khalsa is as follows.

 

 

Jaagat jot japey nis basur

Ek bina man nek na aaney

Pooran prem prateet sajey

Brat gor mari matt bhool na maney.

Tirath daan daya tap sanjam

Ek bina neh ek pachchaney.

Pooran jot jagey ghat main

Tab Khalas tahey nakhalas jaaney.

 

The complete literary works of Guru Gobind Singh Ji are compiled in the Dasam Granth. These were put together in the present form some time after the guru left this worldly form by Bhai Mani Singh and some other leading sikhs who were always present in the darbar (court) of the Guru and had complete knowledge of his writings. Although the manuscripts of these writings were lost in the River Sirsa, hand written copies of all these important works were collected and compiled in the form of the Dasam Granth, Initially the compilation was referred to as "Bachittar Natak Granth", later it come to be referred to as "Dasvey Patshah da Granth". Today, in short form it is called the 'Dasam Granth'.

 

http://patshahi10.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&id=53&Itemid=62

[Guest]

I know paapiman can't see this because he has me blocked but I have a secret security clearance in the military. He thinks simply because I am female I should not be trusted. We are talking national secrets here... Did u know that recent security sweep many men were caught being lax in their protection of security but not aeven a single female was!!!!!!  To say we can't be trusted actually affects our careers etc!!!! 

Sat work I can't get logged back on

[Singh123456777]

Charitropakhyan and I, a Woman

Sanjam Kaur*

I am a woman with two teenage daughters and I have recently finished reading the English translation of Charitropakhyan. The whole text of Charitropakhyan deals with different aspects or shades of a woman's nature, some good some bad. The claims by some that these are useless sensual tales arise from incomplete reading of Chritropankhyan with a fickle mind already polluted by the kaamic mud which is all around us.  Charitropakhyan should be read in its totality.  If one finds them to be sensual tales, it is because all around us there is nothing but 'kaamic' play of the dark-age, kalyug, which has increased millions times more since the time of rachna of Sri Dasam Granth. Guru Granth Sahib Ji teaches us to do bhakti and have gyan too. Bhakti is like a boat which will carry us across this terrifying ocean of fire, and gyan will teach us how to swim across this dark ocean. Charitropankhyan  read with a discerning mind will give us gyan so that we can build a strong fort of viveka to overcome one of the five vikaras called kam or lust. 

If you all read Sri Guru Granth Shaib Ji, you will understand that we are asked to reach the turiya state where we become the knower or the observer in us. This observer in all of us who is gone through infinite experiences in infinite lifetimes, and is now here in this human body and has the great gift of being a Sikh and know Guru Granth Sahib Ji as our Supreme Guru, the King of this kalyug, that observer can greatly appreciate the lessons Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to teach to his beloved Khalsa in Charitropakhyan. 

Let us think about a Sikh Sirdar, our Guru Sahib’s beautiful incredible creation called Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji created the Khalsa and put him where? Did the great Guru create a perfectly pure place, sterile from all vices for his Khalsa to live in? No. Guru Ji ordered his Khalsa to live here amongst everyone else, to marry, to have family, to earn an honest living. You all know that to live in a grihasta jeevan one has to constantly interact with a woman in different forms - his mother, his wife, his daughter. All you women also know that not much harm can be done to a good man by his mother or daughter, but it is the stage of youth and the problems and the enjoyments that come with it, which can either raise a man or drown him into kaamic mud.

All the young women must be able to fully understand how much influence they can have over a man. Now do you all young women, Sikh or non-Sikh, have not come across some woman who is so vile and of bad character that you would never want your husband or fiancé to even know her? Would you not try to protect the man you love from such a woman? Of course you would. We all do, just as a man would protect his wife/daughters. Try to understand, though by keeping away from a bad person may work in case of a woman, but when it comes to protecting a good man from a woman of bad character, it would not be that simple. I bet you all have seen numerous ways women try to deceive a good man or lure him into doing the kinds of things which are sinful. Would we (all women of the world, Sikh and non-Sikh) not try to protect our sons and husbands from women of such low characters? And so did Guru Gobind Singh Ji through his composition, Charitropakhyan.

Why can’t Guruji describe to his Sikhs, whom he considers his sons, different ways a woman can deceivingly lead a man down into the dark and twisted path of kaamic sins? If Guru Gobind Singh Ji said "Khalsa meero roop hai khaas" then how can he not try to protect his Khalsa from all kinds of deceit and sensual treachery of women? After all men and women are both present in kalyug and brahmacharya is not the way to Moksha. If grahasta has and can lead to moksha then who is the other very important character of the grahsta jeevan other than man? Of course it is the woman. Can any woman on this earth say honestly that the men know all about how deceiving a woman can be? A man can be as evil as it can get, as is depicted and taught plenty of times to a girl while she is growing up. But the subject of a woman's deceit is still avoided due to various reasons including the fear that such an education can be considered as anti-feminine, or being unfair to the fair sex, or fear of being disrespectful to woman.

Haven’t women all over the world, in different time periods, in different continents, in different yugas, in different lokas have done that? Is the woman of today not doing that? Do not Bollywood, Hollywood, Hindi songs and all kinds of this world’s so called entertainment industry depict that? Can any woman Sikh or non-Sikh honestly deny that even one of the scenarios told in Charitropakhyan can never really happen? Can any woman Sikh or non-Sikh say that women are not capable of behaving in such shameful ways? No one can say it. I can also bet that all women in this world would have known some female with such deceitful character as described in Sri Dasam Granth.

Women are capable of committing such acts. Just as men can commit evil and heinous acts so can women.

Guru Gobind Singh Ji is the Great King who wanted to keep his Khalsa pure, and his composition Charitropakhyan plays that role of warning the Khalsa of the challenges it might face. The supreme Badshah has tried to show to his Sikhs that the fair sex is not so fair after all and has its own share of blame to take for the ills of the society. What is wrong in such a teaching? Is it not true that Guru Gobind Singh Ji is trying to protect his Khalsa? And is it not that this is what we all women want too and is it not that all the different chritras of women in Charitropakhyan, bad and good, are true? Guru teaches his Sikhs to be brave through all that.

If anyone finds these Charitars sexual it is because of two reasons, one he is not reading the whole chapter and just stopping because some of his hidden kaamic fantasies are popping up in his mind, or second he totally refused to see the tamasha of kaamic maya around him and failed to realize that our Great Guru did a great favor to his Sikhs by trying to protect them from all the deceitful sexual treacheries of women. There is no reason for any good man or woman to feel offended by it or feel sexually aroused by it. It is a dirty pile of all of our own fantasies gathered from the kaamic mud around us which is the cause of that. Our Guru is trying to give us his hand to pull us out of this kaamic quagmire.

If one reads Charitropakhyan and feels sexually aroused it is not the writings, but their fantasies which are responsible. Where do these fantasies come from? They come from Bollywood, Hollywood, billboards, and the list goes on. Everyday we all are bombarded by ashleelmessages, overt or covert, from songs, movies, magazines which denigrate woman’s physical integrity. Yes it is true that one cannot control and stop all that nonsense, but as a Sikh you should rise above this and should be able to see the futility of all this - the evil effect this all can have on us. How can we not understand that these sound waves emitting from all the ashleel songs around us do affect us. These  are the cause of all your sexual fantasies. Getting rid of them is not easy, but if you read and understand Charitropakhyan  it is bound to  stop you from following that track and you will ask yourself, “Wait a minute, there is so much trash around me. This is not how my Guru wants me to be”. You will try to make an effort to free yourself from all the kaamicquagmire which surrounds all of us. Remember that our Guru Granth Sahib Ji does not prescribe the solution of running to jungles. We have to be here, and become jeevan mukta in the grihasta jeevan. No matter what way you look at it this is a spiritual war and Charitropakhyan is one of the many different ways our great Guru Gobind Singh Ji has shown to win this war.

Rise above this kaamic quagmire and you can clearly see that it is the kaamic mud of our minds which is not letting us realize the true purpose intended by our Great Guru Gobind Singh Ji in composing Charitropakhyan.

The content of Charitropakhyan is not “ashleel” as described by some. The details about a woman’s beauty and form wherever described in Charitropakhyan are there to explain about the twisted deceitful plan of action indented by her in all the tales.

Also as claimed by some, Charitropakhyan is not an attack on women.  I think every woman should read Charitropakhyan and I assure all the Sikh women that you will not at all feel offended because Guru Gobind Singh Ji is not criticizing women. Once a woman has read Charitropakhyan in all its totality only then she can come to her conclusions about the main idea and teaching that this composition intends. In it she will find help, a guide, an eye opener, for the good men in her life, not to get entrapped in this kaamic pitfall. We all know that a woman of bad character can make the dark hole of sin appear like a paradise to an unsuspecting man. Charitropakhyan opens his eyes and shows him that it is a dark hole of sin and nothing else. This is one of the numerous gifts of Guru Gobind Singh Ji to his beautiful Khalsa. It is my request to all Sikh women that do not take it personally. I want to ask all Sikh women that you all know quite well the extents of the great goodness of a woman’s heart, and you all also realize the devious and deceiving plans a woman is capable of plotting. There is not only the good heroine in the movie there is also a female villain, a vamp. Now project this to a real life. Don’t you believe that there are real life female villains too who are amongst us all? I am sure you can come up with many examples where a female character is evil beyond description. Once again I will humbly request all the Sikh women to read the Charitropakhyan in its totality.

You would be surprised as how much Guru Gobind Singh Ji loved his Khalsa and how he will always protect him. After all it is Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa. It is not some ordinary distinction. It is the greatest honor.

For those who think that Charitropakhyan cannot be read in front of their daughters and wives, probably do not understand that the intention of Guru Gobind Singh Ji in writing Charitropakhyan is not to insult women but to make men and women both understand how deceitful and devious a woman's character can be. I would request these people to sit with their wives or daughters or any other women dear and near to them and ‘finish’ reading Chritropankhyan. I am pretty sure no one will feel offended. There is one condition though - that you have to finish reading the whole tales. Why? Because, its only at the end of the tale that you will realize the warning which is given to a person to protect his honor.

Only after reading the whole of Charitropakhyan you will be saying “Oh my Great Guru Gobind Singh, you are amazing!”

------------

[Singh123456777]

Satkiran please read the articles I am posting.

[CdnSikhGirl]

Those articles have no bearing when we have a revered Singh who was close to Guru Ji interpreting it as women can't be trusted ever. The damage is done. Just look at paapiman and what he's been saying. 

[chatanga1]

18 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

 How do I get off this ride?? 

Easy. give up your false intellect. This is the ride you have put your self on. The premise that you know better than your Guru. And you can never win.

 

18 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

 So this is the end...I can't do it anymore... 

Well you said that a before and then did a u-turn, so I won't be holding my breath.

 

[CdnSikhGirl]

Achatanga im not talking about arguing with u I'm talking about life. Right now I am struggling with guru Ji seeing me as nothing but a deceitful slut who no man should ever trust. Imagine feeling this way that guru Ji hates you and thinks of u like that simply because of gender u can't choose. When I say I can't do it I mean life itself living like this.so please stop u win. You're right Guru Ji hates us and thinks we don't even deserve to be trusted by our own husbands let alone anyone else. We should just all kill ourselves. Women are horrible and sluts and immoral and not worth living. just leave it. I admitted guru Ji hates us and thinks of us this way. What more do you want???? Go bask in your male superiority. I'm serious please stop and leave me alone. I don't know how to get you to just leave me alone... Just stop. Please

 

i never thought I'd say this but Sikhi is not truth. It just can't be...

[chatanga1]

19 hours ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

This is why I find it difficult to view Chaupa Singh's Rhetnama as any sort of authority...

@Satkirin_Kaur  There is no correlation in Bhai Chaupa Singh's rehatnama and Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth. Since Sri CharitroPakhyan is not against anyone, I fail to see the connection.

Also this is where 18 years of study needed to be more fruitful. You could have read the original in Gurmukhi. I know I would like to as translations can sometimes be inaccurate.

If you want to discuss the Holy Granth of the 10th Guru discuss it, and make a separate topic for Chaupa Singh's Rehitnama, or even better find an old existing topic and revive it. No point in making topics over and over again.

Let's get back to discussing the original post. Have you read it yourself yet?

 

[Singh123456777]

Sheesh satkiran I don't know who can explain anything to you.  You yourself don't want to learn.

[chatanga1]

10 minutes ago, Satkirin_Kaur said:

 Right now I am struggling with guru Ji seeing me as nothing but a deceitful slut who no man should ever trust.

 @Satkirin_Kaur  that may be your psychosis.

You are seeing/imagining/reading things that don't exist.

This Granth has been part of Khalsa Panth for centuries, but suddenly you have deciphered the "true" meaning whereas everyone else who read it, remained clueless?

If I were you, I would stop talking or discussing this granth. You obviously have trouble comprehending it, and in the course of it, you are wasting your own time and our bringing it up for discussion.

 

[GurpreetKaur]

Women are emotional beings, not stupid for Vaheguroo's sake lol. They very well know if something is confidential it should stay that way.

Are we sure about that? Men sit together and get drunk and bam everything is out lol. ( Now, you can say drinking does not imply and then I can say the assumption of women being not able to keep secret does not imply to all women either)

Maybe, I'll agree somewhat. But not all of us are in gossiping. If my husband share something with me, it will stay with me and that's true for many other women too. And let's be real, men gossip too.

This... The fourth point never make sense to me lol. It's been 10 years I have been going through it and never had mood swings. It's a myth people lol.