Background to Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee

[paapiman]

17 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

@paapiman did you get a chance to look this up?

Look where? Nidar's work?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

yes bro, is the spelling the same?

 

 

[paapiman]

On 6/27/2018 at 4:36 PM, chatanga1 said:

yes bro, is the spelling the same?

 

 

Nidar has not presented the Gurmukhi version of the Charitars in his book, when he translates them in a sequential order.

The name will appear in Charitar# 54.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Charitar# 2 (Translation by Gyani Ishar Singh jee)

 

 

 

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Why are people scared of the Charitars? Amazing reply by Gyani Kulwant Singh jee

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

Before reading the Charitars, one (wise intellectuals above the age of 25) should also read the views of the great Chanakya jee on women. It might provide them some background, as to why Sri Satguru jee compiled so many Charitars.

Chanakya jee's views on women are very far-sighted. It is just surreal. It is, as if he was living in a feminist society and describing their characteristics. Obviously, his views don't apply to all women, but they are very relevant in today's age, especially in the western world.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Before reading the Charitars, one (wise intellectuals above the age of 25) should also read the views of the great Chanakya jee on women. It might provide them some background, as to why Sri Satguru jee compiled so many Charitars.

Chanakya jee's views on women are very far-sighted. It is just surreal. It is, as if he was living in a feminist society and describing their characteristics. Obviously, his views don't apply to all women, but they are very relevant in today's age, especially in the western world.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

His views are out right discriminatory against women and are heavily based on his sadhu vaishnava leanings. Sikhs can’t learn anything from those passages. 

[chatanga1]

4 hours ago, amardeep said:

His views are out right discriminatory against women

All of his views or just some ?

[amardeep]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

All of his views or just some ?

Overall in regards to women.  

[paapiman]

We should not forget that Chanakya jee praises women at some places too. It is possible that he is talking about immoral women at some places, rather than just women in general.

One example is below:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Much of it appears to be about women in general

[dalsingh101]

I'm sure I've posted this before. It's Kahn Singh Nabha's entry on the chariters. 

[paapiman]

15 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

I'm sure I've posted this before. It's Kahn Singh Nabha's entry on the chariters. 

Has anyone read the book "Bahadanish"? What is this book about?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 7/26/2018 at 7:21 PM, paapiman said:

Has anyone read the book "Bahadanish"? What is this book about?

Never heard of it. If its persian/farsi as it sounds, "Bahar" means Spring (season) and "Danish" means knowledge/education.

[chatanga1]

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M003KRjCipYC&pg=PA304&lpg=PA304&dq=bahardanesh+meaning+in+persian&source=bl&ots=y4RscGzkLF&sig=DqUMqnli6m-XJK71MGezwgzcgkA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjpicOFmMDcAhVGKVAKHb3MAHUQ6AEwA3oECAQQAQ#v=onepage&q=bahardanesh meaning in persian&f=false

 

It means sea of knowledge but I'm not sure if its the same as it talksabout it being useful for learning farsi to high level.

[amardeep]

What do you think so far - does the charitars warn against deception in many forms, or does it teach deception in many forms ? 

In many forms = deception through flattery, telling the truth, boosting egos, etc. 

[paapiman]

Some of Chanakya jee's views (with regards to women) also conform with Gurbani.

For examples:

• He says that women must be kept at a safe distance, which implies minimal interaction and avoidance of close friendship with them. Similarly, in Sri Assa kee Vaar Sahib jee, friendship with women is highly discouraged.
• He says that a woman is lost without her husband. In Sikhism, wives are suppose to respect their husbands (especially Gurmukh ones) as masters/lords and obey them.
• He says that a sagacious person does not listen to the advice of a woman. Similarly, in Gurbani, women as advisors, is considered as a sign of Kaljug.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Sajjan_Thug]

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

Some of Chanakya jee's verses also conform with Gurbani.

For examples:

• He says that women must be kept at a safe distance, which implies minimal interaction and avoidance of close friendship with them. Similarly, in Sri Assa kee Vaar Sahib jee, friendship with women is highly discouraged.

Didn't Guru Sahib give many women Manjis to preach Sikhism. Obviously, they would interact with a lot of people and in granths its mentions women doing seva in Langer.

• He says that a woman is lost without her husband. In Sikhism, wives are suppose to respect their husbands (especially Gurmukh ones) as masters/lords and obey them.
• He says that a sagacious person does not listen to the advice of a woman. Similarly, in Gurbani, women as advisors, is considered as a sign of Kaljug.

Wasn't it the advise of Bibi Bhani Ji that all the Gurus be from her family and Satguru Ji accepted it?  Also, many times in janamsakhi it mentions Bibi Nanaki Ji remembering Guru Ji and he would automatically come to visit Bibi Ji.

Bhul chuk maaf

ਮਃ ੧ ॥  मः १ ॥  Mėhlā 1.  First Mehl:

ਭੰਡਿ ਜੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਨਿੰਮੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਮੰਗਣੁ ਵੀਆਹੁ ॥  भंडि जमीऐ भंडि निमीऐ भंडि मंगणु वीआहु ॥  Bẖand jammī▫ai bẖand nimmī▫ai bẖand mangaṇ vī▫āhu.  From woman, man is born; within woman, man is conceived; to woman he is engaged and married.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੋਵੈ ਦੋਸਤੀ ਭੰਡਹੁ ਚਲੈ ਰਾਹੁ ॥  भंडहु होवै दोसती भंडहु चलै राहु ॥  Bẖandahu hovai ḏosṯī bẖandahu cẖalai rāhu.  Woman becomes his friend; through woman, the future generations come.

ਭੰਡੁ ਮੁਆ ਭੰਡੁ ਭਾਲੀਐ ਭੰਡਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਬੰਧਾਨੁ ॥  भंडु मुआ भंडु भालीऐ भंडि होवै बंधानु ॥  Bẖand mu▫ā bẖand bẖālī▫ai bẖand hovai banḏẖān.  When his woman dies, he seeks another woman; to woman he is bound.

ਸੋ ਕਿਉ ਮੰਦਾ ਆਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਜੰਮਹਿ ਰਾਜਾਨ ॥  सो किउ मंदा आखीऐ जितु जमहि राजान ॥  So ki▫o manḏā ākẖī▫ai jiṯ jamėh rājān.  So why call her bad? From her, kings are born.

ਭੰਡਹੁ ਹੀ ਭੰਡੁ ਊਪਜੈ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਝੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥  भंडहु ही भंडु ऊपजै भंडै बाझु न कोइ ॥  Bẖandahu hī bẖand ūpjai bẖandai bājẖ na ko▫e.  From woman, woman is born; without woman, there would be no one at all.

ਨਾਨਕ ਭੰਡੈ ਬਾਹਰਾ ਏਕੋ ਸਚਾ ਸੋਇ ॥  नानक भंडै बाहरा एको सचा सोइ ॥  Nānak bẖandai bāhrā eko sacẖā so▫e.  O Nanak, only the True Lord is without a woman.

ਜਿਤੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਸਦਾ ਸਾਲਾਹੀਐ ਭਾਗਾ ਰਤੀ ਚਾਰਿ ॥  जितु मुखि सदा सालाहीऐ भागा रती चारि ॥  Jiṯ mukẖ saḏā salāhī▫ai bẖāgā raṯī cẖār.  That mouth which praises the Lord continually is blessed and beautiful.

ਨਾਨਕ ਤੇ ਮੁਖ ਊਜਲੇ ਤਿਤੁ ਸਚੈ ਦਰਬਾਰਿ ॥੨॥  नानक ते मुख ऊजले तितु सचै दरबारि ॥२॥  Nānak ṯe mukẖ ūjle ṯiṯ sacẖai ḏarbār. ||2||  O Nanak, those faces shall be radiant in the Court of the True Lord. ||2||

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Didn't Guru Sahib give many women Manjis to preach Sikhism. Obviously, they would interact with a lot of people and in granths its mentions women doing seva in Langer.

Women, who were given "Pirris" (leadership positions), were considered mother-like/saint-like figures by Sikhs. What Chanakya jee and Gurbani discourage, is friendship with women. There is a huge difference.

 

2 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Wasn't it the advise of Bibi Bhani Ji that all the Gurus be from her family and Satguru Ji accepted it?  Also, many times in janamsakhi it mentions Bibi Nanaki Ji remembering Guru Ji and he would automatically come to visit Bibi Ji.

It was not an advise, rather a boon which Mata jee had received, by doing unparalleled seva of Sri Satguru hee (Third Master).

Obviously, there have been great Sikh women Brahamgaynis in our history. The relationship of an ordinary Sikh with those female personalities (if they were present in current times) would that be of a saint-follower, mother-son or brother-sister.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

 

7 hours ago, paapiman said:

What Chanakya jee and Gurbani discourage, is friendship with women. There is a huge difference.

I don't know about Chanakya but I don't agree with your analysis regarding friendships with women and Gurmat. I think what CP is getting at (amongst many many subtle things), is to not lose your senses and be be blinded by lust and beauty. To understand psychologies and motivations. This is equally applicable for  men or women and is relevant for both genders. There is no getting away from this if we are going to socialise with the wider world - what CP offers is a higher mental state to try and avoid  pitfalls through cognitions. 

I think in a leadership capacity (which is a central theme of CP), the work does warn us about being manipulated based on natural feelings and emotions we might feel due to attraction and moh (attachments). This is sound advice. It's a very common tactic of adversaries to use attractive people (both male and female) to manipulate the consciousness of people in power (and even those who are not) to sway things towards their own objectives - which are commonly detrimental to the wider society of the target. 

 

That all being said, I think what we've done thus far is quite a....let's be kind and just say 'pioneering' effort towards understanding the chariters. I have no doubt that they contain many more subtle things for our consideration than what our first foray into the work has exposed. 

[dalsingh101]

I'm sure this work will be available in some online archive. If we ever find it, it would be good to compare the Farsi works with the versions in CP. 

If the description below is accurate, it just shows what high level of literary study was taking place in Guru ji's darbar. 

 

[amardeep]

There is no such thing in Sikhi pappiman

[dalsingh101]

There are extant manuscripts of this work on sale on ebay:

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Antique-Islamic-Persian-Manuscript-Bahar-i-Danish-by-Enayat-Allah-Kamboh-1275-AH-/272471639890

The Bahar-i Danish (Spring of Knowledge) was a Persian collection of romantic tales adapted from earlier Indian sources by Inayat Allah Kamboh of Lahore in 1061 A.H./1651.^[1]

The book was partially translated into English by Alexander Dow in 1768 or 1769, and Jonathan Scott translated it completely in 1799. The Persian text was also lithographed several times in the 19th century.^[1]

One of the tales in the Bahar-i Danish provided Thomas Moore with the plot of his 1817 verse-novel Lalla-Rookh.^[2]

No early illustrated copy of the manuscript has survived, though a pair of 18th-century illustrated manuscripts, from the collections of the Duke of Northumberland and that of Richard Johnson, may reflect 17th-century illustrative traditions.^[3]

 

[dalsingh101]

This Bahar-danesh was a contemporary work to Dasam pita by the looks of it.  

From wiki:

Shaikh Inayat-Allah Kamboh (1608–1671) was a scholar, writer and historian. He was son of Mir Abdu-lla, Mushkin Kalam, whose title shows him to also have been a fine writer.^[1][2] Shaikh Inayat-Allah Kamboh was elder brother and teacher of Muhammad Saleh Kamboh Salafi, the famous historian of Shah Jahan's court and teacher of Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb.^[3][2][4] He died in 1671 AD at Delhi,^[5] and his Maqbara is located in Guband Kambohan wala on Empress Road near Railways Headquarters, Lahore.

Inayat-Allah Kamboh spent his early life in the military service of the Mughals and was a "Mir Munshi" (Inspector General) of Shah Jahan and held a mansab of 800 horses. But he after a period of service, he retired from the world and lived besides the sacred shrine of Qutb-ud-Din Bakhtiyar Kaki at Delhi.^[2] Like his brother Muhammad Saleh, Inayat-Allah is also stated to be an accomplished Hindi singer.^[2][6]

Inayat-Allah Kamboh wrote several historical works. He is most famous for his collection of tales entitled Bahar-i-Danish (Springtime of Knowledge), completed in 1651 AD, which became one of the most popular textbooks of Persian. Historian Muhammad Saleh Kamboh, younger brother of Inayat-Allah Kamboh, praised Bahar-i-Danish as a model of sophisticated workmanship.^[7] It became part of the syllabuses of Persian schools and is mentioned in a manuscript-copy of Khulasatul Makatib, written in 1688. From its popular use in Persian schools, educated men and women, both Muslims and Hindus, were commonly acquainted with it in Mughal India. During British rule too, according to education reports, it was taught in nearly all schools and its style and idiom were regarded as the best models of composition (Reid 1852: 54).^[8]

His another important work of Kamboh is the Takmilah-yi-Akbar-Namah which is a continuation of Abu-al-Fazl’s Akbar-Namah and narrates the last four years of emperor Akbar’s reign. He also wrote two more books known as Dalkasha and Asharaf-al-Sarayaf.

[dalsingh101]