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paapiman

Background to Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee

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Just now, chatanga1 said:

 

Excellent work there Dal. It's very interesting to see that there were similiar works in Persian literature.

I had a flick through a bit of the translation by the gora. The original is highly flowery in its language. One change Dasam Granth made to this was to use more precise and less flamboyant language. Again this fits into the common Sikh understanding that Guru ji was making his Sikhs highly literate and facilitating access to literature for the masses and not just the elites. It looks like elements of the original texts that were considered superfluous (i.e. not useful to the needs of Sikhs) were jettisoned.  You hear the same thing with the Chandhi prayers, where superfluous elements in the original Markandaya Puranas were jettisoned. 

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On 7/28/2018 at 5:49 PM, paapiman said:

Some of Chanakya jee's views (with regards to women) also conform with Gurbani.

For examples:

  • He says that women must be kept at a safe distance, which implies minimal interaction and avoidance of close friendship with them. Similarly, in Sri Assa kee Vaar Sahib jee, friendship with women is highly discouraged.
  • He says that a woman is lost without her husband. In Sikhism, wives are suppose to respect their husbands (especially Gurmukh ones) as masters/lords and obey them.
  • He says that a sagacious person does not listen to the advice of a woman. Similarly, in Gurbani, women as advisors, is considered as a sign of Kaljug.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Chanakya jee also believed that women (on average) have more lust in them, than men. This is also in conformance with Sikhism.  

Please see the evidence below from Prem Sumarag Granth:

image.thumb.png.7635b1075ac862ac847fc47cdc043b5b.png

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 7/28/2018 at 5:49 PM, paapiman said:

Some of Chanakya jee's views (with regards to women) also conform with Gurbani.

For examples:

  • He says that women must be kept at a safe distance, which implies minimal interaction and avoidance of close friendship with them. Similarly, in Sri Assa kee Vaar Sahib jee, friendship with women is highly discouraged.
  • He says that a woman is lost without her husband. In Sikhism, wives are suppose to respect their husbands (especially Gurmukh ones) as masters/lords and obey them.
  • He says that a sagacious person does not listen to the advice of a woman. Similarly, in Gurbani, women as advisors, is considered as a sign of Kaljug.

Chanakya jee believed that stupidity is one of the natural flaws in a woman. 

Please see the excerpt below (from Prem Sumarag Granth) which talks about the intellect of a woman:

image.thumb.png.b8309192454a7e793cba96ad60adf14f.png

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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1 hour ago, paapiman said:

Chanakya jee believed that stupidity is one of the natural flaws in a woman. 

Please see the excerpt below (from Prem Sumarag Granth) which talks about the intellect of a woman:

image.thumb.png.b8309192454a7e793cba96ad60adf14f.png

 

Bhul chuk maaf

How comes you jump on Prem Sumarag when it comes to putting the boot into women, but struggle to accept the contents of the same work when it talks about eating meat and fish bro?

In this day and age you can't avoid women like the plague. You will meet and have to interact with them - especially at work.   

 

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On 8/5/2018 at 7:57 AM, dalsingh101 said:

In this day and age you can't avoid women like the plague. You will meet and have to interact with them - especially at work.   

Agreed, but we can minimize our interactions with them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion.

 

Daas heard about an incident from someone, which is related to the Charitars. The person who told me about it, used to live and work in a rich middle eastern country. One of the drivers (of a native Arab family) told him about this incident. A native Arab woman (whose family the person worked for as a driver) told him to have sex with her, otherwise he would be jailed. In those countries, non-natives don't have the same amount of rights, like those enjoyed in the western countries. The driver then had sex with her. I guess he had no option at that stage. 

In a western society, this would almost classify as a rape. The guy was threatened and coerced to have sex with that woman. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 7/29/2018 at 7:45 AM, amardeep said:

There is no such thing in Sikhi pappiman

If you are looking at Sikhi from a western lens, then you will definitely have troubles understanding the great intellect of Chanakya jee.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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There is a British source from the late 1800s that says the Charitro Pakhyan teaches how to be a just ruler. Here you have a direct link between CP and rulership (rather than it being erotic tales)

I'll try and post the quote when I've got acces to my notes.

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Here's another interesting little known twist in the background of Bahar Danesh. According to this footnote in the translation by Jonathan Scott (where he castigates a previous attempt at translation by Dow), it seems that the original Persian text (by Inyahat Allah) mentions a young Brahmin being the source for the tales in the work?

I'm not sure if this young Brahmin was a real person or a fictional character in the narrative?

 

bahardaneshindianbackground.png.45d12c4fff6bbc9e1b48a857bf4858c9.png

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On 7/29/2018 at 3:49 PM, dalsingh101 said:

 

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Found a pdf of above text anywhere Dal?

Not a pdf, but it's from these links I posted earlier ^^^^^^

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In general I think we need to widen our understanding of the term “rajniti”. I think it’s wider than “politics” and “governance” as it is usually understood. Kavi Sainapat uses the word in his Chanakya niti translation (Bahu shaastra avilok kai sundar bachan nikaar, Raajniti sanbuuh ko barnan karo bithaar). Yet his book doesn’t deal with politics the way we would classify a book on politics today. It is more about psychology, ethics, schrewdness, being aware, being sceptical etc. You don’t learn governance through it, but rather how to be a sovereign individual.  And I think this is the understanding of rajniti at the time of Maharaj and it is in this light we should see the Charitro Pakhyan - a book on sovereignty rather than a book on politics/governance only.  Politics is just one ang of Rajniti which is a much wider term than what you have in the English language. Just some thoughts after going through the Chanakya in recent months. I have bought 3-4 different punjabi translations of it that I will go through in the next few months to better understand the context of this kind of writings- which the Charitro Pakhyan is most likely a part of.

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Am copying and pasting this from Anurag Singhs FB page :

ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੇ ਮੂਲ ਸਰੋਤ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਦੇ ਪੰਨਿਆ ਤੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਾਇਨਾਤ ਦੇ ਬੱਦਲਦੇ ਰੰਗ-ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਮੁੜ ਲੋਕ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਿਤ ਕੀਤੇ।
===========================================
ਇਸ ਮਹਾਨ ਰੱਚਨਾ ਦੀ ਗਹਿਰਾਈ ਤੇ ਭੇਦ ਸੱਮਝਨ ਲਈ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਦਾ ਵਿਖਿਆਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਕੀਤੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਕੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੜ੍ਹਾਂ ਪੁੱਟਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਹਾਈ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ।
‘ਪਾਖਯਾਨ’ ਪ੍ਰਾਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦਾ ਲੱਫਜ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੱਖਰੀ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ:(੧)ਕਥਾ ਜੋ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਜਾ ਚੁੱਕੀ ਹੈ,(੨)ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਕਹੀ ਕਥਾ,(੩)ਕਥਾ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ,ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਤੇ ਸਿਆਸੀ ਛੱਲ-ਕੱਪਟ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ,(੪)ਲੋਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ ਤਬਦੀਲੀ ਲਈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੋਵੇ।
ਸੋ ਇਸ ਸੰਦਰਭ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਿੰਦਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੁਤਰਕ:”ਕੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਲਿੱਖ ਸੱਕਦੇ ਹਨ” ਨਿਰਮੂਲ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਦਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਲੀਨ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਹੇਠ ਲਿਖੇ ਸਰੋਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਵ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਤੋਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖਣ ਦਾ ਮੌਕਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਿੱਖ ਲਈ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ।


(੧)ਪੁਰਾਣਿਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ):੨੦ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੨)ਮਹਾਭਾਰਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੩)ਰਮਾਇਣ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੪)ਪੰਚ ਤੰਤਰ:੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੫)ਹਿਤ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼:੪ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੬)ਕੁਰਾਨ ਮਜੀਦ:(ਅਰਬੀ):੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੭)ਬਾਈਬਲ:( ਲਾਤੀਨੀ)੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੮)ਚਾਰ ਦਰਵੇਸ਼(ਫ਼ਾਰਸੀ):੩ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੯)ਲੋਕ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ/ਦੰਦ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ:੫੫ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੧੦)ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ:੩੮ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।

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2 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Am copying and pasting this from Anurag Singhs FB page :

ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੇ ਮੂਲ ਸਰੋਤ ਜੋ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਸਿੰਘ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਦੁਨੀਆਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਾਲ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਦੇ ਪੰਨਿਆ ਤੋ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਰਮਾਤਮਾ ਦੀ ਕਾਇਨਾਤ ਦੇ ਬੱਦਲਦੇ ਰੰਗ-ਤਮਾਸ਼ੇ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਨ ਲਈ ਮੁੜ ਲੋਕ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਵਿੱਚ ਪ੍ਰਚਲਿਤ ਕੀਤੇ।
===========================================
ਇਸ ਮਹਾਨ ਰੱਚਨਾ ਦੀ ਗਹਿਰਾਈ ਤੇ ਭੇਦ ਸੱਮਝਨ ਲਈ ਸੱਭ ਤੋਂ ਪਹਿਲਾਂ ਇਸ ਦੇ ਸਿਰਲੇਖ ਦਾ ਵਿਖਿਆਨ ਕਰਨਾ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ ਜੋ ਇਸ ਵਿਰੁੱਧ ਕੀਤੇ ਜਾ ਰਹੇ ਕੂੜ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਦੀਆਂ ਜੜ੍ਹਾਂ ਪੁੱਟਣ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਹਾਈ ਹੋਵੇਗਾ।
‘ਪਾਖਯਾਨ’ ਪ੍ਰਾਕ੍ਰਿਤ ਭਾਸ਼ਾ ਦਾ ਲੱਫਜ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਅੱਖਰੀ ਭਾਵ ਹੈ:(੧)ਕਥਾ ਜੋ ਪਹਿਲਾ ਸਿੱਖੀ ਜਾ ਚੁੱਕੀ ਹੈ,(੨)ਪੁਰਾਤਨ ਕਹੀ ਕਥਾ,(੩)ਕਥਾ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ,ਧਾਰਮਿਕ ਤੇ ਸਿਆਸੀ ਛੱਲ-ਕੱਪਟ ਦੀ ਤਰਜਮਾਨੀ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੋਵੇ,(੪)ਲੋਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਜੋ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਵਿੱਚ ਸਮਾਜਿਕ ਤਬਦੀਲੀ ਲਈ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਗਿਆ ਹੋਵੇ।
ਸੋ ਇਸ ਸੰਦਰਭ ਵਿੱਚ ਨਿੰਦਕਾਂ ਦਾ ਕੁਤਰਕ:”ਕੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਲਿੱਖ ਸੱਕਦੇ ਹਨ” ਨਿਰਮੂਲ ਹੈ ਅਤੇ ਨਿਦਕਾਂ ਦੀ ਮਲੀਨ ਬੁੱਧੀ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਗਟਾਵਾ ਕਰਦਾ ਹੈ।ਤ੍ਰਿਆ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਖਯਾਨ ਦੀਆਂ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ ਹੇਠ ਲਿਖੇ ਸਰੋਤਾਂ ਦੇ ਵਿਸ਼ਵ ਸਾਹਿਤ ਤੋਂ ਸਾਨੂੰ ਸਿੱਖਣ ਦਾ ਮੌਕਾ ਦੇਂਦਾ ਹੈ ਜਿਸ ਦਾ ਗਿਆਨ ਸਿੱਖ ਲਈ ਜ਼ਰੂਰੀ ਹੈ।


(੧)ਪੁਰਾਣਿਕ ਸਾਹਿਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ):੨੦ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੨)ਮਹਾਭਾਰਤ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੩)ਰਮਾਇਣ(ਸੰਸਕ੍ਰਿਤ) :੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੪)ਪੰਚ ਤੰਤਰ:੨ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੫)ਹਿਤ ਉਪਦੇਸ਼:੪ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੬)ਕੁਰਾਨ ਮਜੀਦ:(ਅਰਬੀ):੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੭)ਬਾਈਬਲ:( ਲਾਤੀਨੀ)੧ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੮)ਚਾਰ ਦਰਵੇਸ਼(ਫ਼ਾਰਸੀ):੩ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੯)ਲੋਕ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ/ਦੰਦ ਕਥਾਵਾਂ:੫੫ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।


(੧੦)ਇਤਿਹਾਸਕ:੩੮ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ।

Thanks for sharing veer ji

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