JustAnotherSingh Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hey everyone, Somebody pointed me to these hukamname a while back and I was wondering what y'all think of them--http://www.info-sikh.com/PageG8.html I'm really conflicted on how to feel about them...One reason I'm wary of such hukams in general is that there are a ton of explicit fakes (Guru Hargobind hukamname). Also, one theme I noticed among the famous "52 hukams" is that it just seemed like an abridged version of the SGPC maryada...as much as I would like it to be true (I would probably personally posit that these would generally be pretty in line with what Guru Ji mandated) it just doesn't make sense historically. The 52 hukams seem too tailored to be true and they don't have a Punjabi source. But in general, didn't hukams from the Gurus exist? Surely they had to get their mandates out to people somehow. Wouldn't these have been treated pristinely by Sikhs and preserved through the ages? We know Bluestar destroyed a lot of hukams, so what was in those? If these are hukams, why is it that there was a centuries long gap in Sikh conduct between these supposed hukams from Guru and the SGPC Maryada? Why would Rehitname even exist if hukams existed? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Hukam-namay are short instructions sent to congregations. It seems like this was a standard method of keeping in contact with distant sangats by later Gurus. That makes sense. Yes, some may have been forged for some later agenda, but I think a fair few of the surviving ones are genuine. Ganda Singh and Shamsher Singh Ashok have done good research in this area. Rahit namas are different. They are more general normative statements of how Singhs should conduct themselves generally. Here's an older link discussing the 52 hukams issue. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherSingh Posted February 9, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 @dalsingh101 That's what's interesting though; some of the hukamname make very obvious sense (the ones asking for the Sangat to bring certain goods). In general, I've also always subscribed to the belief that Sikh philosophy is multi-layered; even rehits are not meant in a sharia law sense, but are meant on general level of community-development, while personal-development comes from the GGS. What's confusing to me, is that certain hukamname like the Kabul hukamname and the 52 hukams are general descriptions of normative behavior just like Rehitname. What also confuses me is the content of said hukams. Let's take the Kabul hukamname, here's a very rough translation with original gurmukhi: Okay, so let's take the kara. I've been doing some research on the kara and what I found really interesting is that in most of the old Sikh literature, references to it are non-existent. The Sarbloh Granth* only refers to "tre Mudrai" as Kachh Kirpan and Kesh, and all the Rehitname never mention it. Nor do they ever mention the term "Panj kakkar." There's no doubt Sikhs of old kept the kara (as can be attested to by British sources), but it just didn't seem like it was so heightened in importance until Singh Sabha and the SGPC Maryada. Yet here you have a hukam from Guru Gobind Singh saying to wear it. Surely, if Guru Sahib had included the kara in his hukamnama and if he had mentioned 5 kakkar...why did that term go extinct for so long in Sikh history? That applies to a lot of things; why are, in general, the kabul hukamname/52 hukams closer to the SGPC Rehit Maryada than to rehitname that were closer in time period to the Guru? My personal belief actually has no problems with this--I believe in the theory that the Guru Sahib would have enforced a code of conduct pretty much what you see in these hukams, and that the path the rehitname took over history was colored by their historical times (e.g., ban on wearing red was reaction to Bandai), hyper-military-culture, and personal biases (e.g., Chaupa Singh Chibber). But I just want to dispel all my doubts before I go on having an absolute opinion on this topic (it's especially important as I'm writing a little thing on the history of the kara and the authenticity of these hukamname/the term panj kakkar is a big deal for that) *--admittedly, I'm a bit skeptical on the authorship of SG being under Guru Gobind Singh as well (Dasam Granth I don't have much doubts, but Sarbloh Granth is questionable). Nonetheless, I take it at the very least that it has some historical authorship and isn't just a random modern work, so it can say something about the mindset of ancient Sikhs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 Ganda Singh didn't include the Kabul one in his collection. Some people think it is a later forgery. But you know the deal with 'evidence'. People generally promote that which supports their own preconceptions. It's human nature. Quote In general, I've also always subscribed to the belief that Sikh philosophy is multi-layered; even rehits are not meant in a sharia law sense, but are meant on general level of community-development, while personal-development comes from the GGS. I think rehats also covered the area of personal development (as well as corporate development). My own opinion is that there are many things in the rehats that stem from the Guru ji's orders (i.e. staying away from certain schismatic groups), but as you allude to above, they also contain personal interpretations and the biases of authors. Many stem from a period of turmoil, and I believe literate Sikhs stepped in with these documents to help clarify things - including their own biases, worldviews and conceptions within, as could be expected given human nature. A word of advice: when we contest now established Singh Sabha understanding, it's best to exercise caution and sensitivity. You have to remember you are dealing with deeply held beliefs. People invariably react badly when these get challenged. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 9, 2016 Report Share Posted February 9, 2016 I think the Kabuli hukamnama is a forgery. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherSingh Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Lol, guessed as much. It just seems too convenient to be true. Which authentic hukamname *are* there then? Also, on a sidenote, are there any actual puratan sources that refer to kara or even panj kakkar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 The Afghan Sikhs do not have any doubts on the Kabul hukumnama being genuine. What makes you feel it's not genuine? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Justanothersingh: check out Ganda Singh's book Hukamname. I think its digitized online. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Chatanga: It seems too modern in language and content. Ganda Singh rejected it in his comprehensive cataloging of Hukanamme (he has about 50 hukamname from the Guru's in his book) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Is Kabul hukumnama dated? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 I can't remember. One thing that also distinguishes the hukamname of Guru Gobind Singh is that they are all dated and each line is given a number etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 6 hours ago, JustAnotherSingh said: Lol, guessed as much. It just seems too convenient to be true. Which authentic hukamname *are* there then? Also, on a sidenote, are there any actual puratan sources that refer to kara or even panj kakkar? I think the earliest reference to the kara is in Kuir Singh's Gurbilas Patshahi 10. He mentiones 4 of the kakaars in a dohra. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Sorry wait. The only one he does'nt mention is the kara. He mentions the karad, kesh, kanga and kechara. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 Mcleod in his Sikhs of the Khalsa has a good chapter on the 5k's in 18-19th Century writings. He goes through each writings stating what they mention about kakaars 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JustAnotherSingh Posted February 10, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 @amardeep do you have a link or pdf for Ganda Singh's book? Can't for the life of me seem to find it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 3 hours ago, amardeep said: Chatanga: It seems too modern in language and content. Ganda Singh rejected it in his comprehensive cataloging of Hukanamme (he has about 50 hukamname from the Guru's in his book) Bro, who else has rejected it? Has any Saint Scholar rejected it? Like Bhindranwale Babay or Baba Vir Singh jee? Thanks Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted February 10, 2016 Report Share Posted February 10, 2016 (edited) I dont know if it has been digitized. Paapiman: Sriman 108 Sant Baba Santa Clause Singh Maharaj has rejected it, but apart from him the entire panth has acknowledged the book and they gave Ganda Singh five sarope at Akal Takht and Hazoor Sahib. Edited February 10, 2016 by amardeep 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 On 2/10/2016 at 1:21 PM, JustAnotherSingh said: @amardeep do you have a link or pdf for Ganda Singh's book? Can't for the life of me seem to find it https://www.scribd.com/document/385048860/Hukamname-edited-by-Ganda-Singh 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 Link to Shamsher Singh Ashok's book on hukamnamay: https://www.scribd.com/document/622186812/Nishan-te-hukamnamey-edited-by-Shamsher-Singh-Ashok-Panjabi 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GurjantGnostic Posted January 27, 2023 Report Share Posted January 27, 2023 6 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: Link to Shamsher Singh Ashok's book on hukamnamay: https://www.scribd.com/document/622186812/Nishan-te-hukamnamey-edited-by-Shamsher-Singh-Ashok-Panjabi 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Premi Posted April 14, 2023 Report Share Posted April 14, 2023 Bump 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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