Creation according to first episode of Vishnu Purana

[Ragmaala]

Notice the sequence of events.

 

[tva prasad]

I thought Brahma made Vishnu and shiv ji as he is the creator god.

 

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-09-25 at 5:47 AM, tva prasad said:

I thought Brahma made Vishnu and shiv ji as he is the creator god.

They are names of Supreme God in different religions. Brahma in Vedant, Vishnu in Vaishavism and Shiv in Shaivism.

But see when I name God in three different ways, now it sounds like three different Gods.

Suppose I call God 'Trubba' one day, then 'Bubba' another day and then 'Jubba' on the third day. That person who cannot see who I am talking about, they think I am talking about three different people. Because they have no experience of God, they think it's three different people.
 

To make it even more confusing, you have - for example - Vaishnav texts in which - 
1. They call the Supreme God as Vishnu.
2. But then they also say Vishnu created Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv. 
3. And that Brahma and Shiv bow down to Vishnu.
4. They might even say Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv are also effected by Ahankar.

(Other texts may mirror this.)

So you have this hierarchy -

1 Vishnu - topmost, absolute consciousness
2 Maya - the world
3 Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv - as existing within the world
Other things etc, like Gurus, people, animals - as existing within the world

So Vishnu creates Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv...

But wait there's more!

Then they will have some avtars as well.

So in the Vaishnav example, we have -

1. Vaman
2. Narsingh
3. Ram
4. Krishna
etc

And these are same as Vishnu
 

So you have this hierarchy -
1. Vishnu - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are Vishnu
2. Maya
3. Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv
4. Other things etc, like Gurus, people, animals - as existing within the world - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are in the created world

 

Just wait. There's more!
 

Then you have your Guru, who by meditative practice or by divine grace has merged into Vishnu so ...

So you have this hierarchy -
1. Vishnu - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are Vishnu and your Guru, because he has merged into Vishnu
2. Maya - the world
3. Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv
4. Other things etc, like Gurus, people, animals - as existing within the world - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are in the created world

 

Are you confused yet bro? Are you confused yet?!?

Let me know if you are confused and whether or not you want to resolve this confusion.

[paapiman]

On 9/25/2016 at 5:47 AM, tva prasad said:

I thought Brahma made Vishnu and shiv ji as he is the creator god.

According to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, Sri Waheguru jee first created Maya, then created Vishnu jee, then Braham jee and then Shiv jee.

Brahma jee created this earth. Actually, we are in a dream of Brahma jee. When he wakes up, that would be end of this earth/solar system. There are many solar systems in this creation. Each system have their own Brahma jee, Vishnu jee, Shiv jee and other devtas (like sun, moon, etc). 

Vishnu jee is the greatest demi-God/Deity. The reward of his Bhagti is equal to the reward of the Bhagti of Sri Akaal Purakh Waheguru jee.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[tva prasad]

Just now, BhagatSingh said:

They are names of Supreme God in different religions. Brahma in Vedant, Vishnu in Vaishavism and Shiv in Shaivism.

But see when I name God in three different ways, now it sounds like three different Gods.

Suppose I call God 'Trubba' one day, then 'Bubba' another day and then 'Jubba' on the third day. That person who cannot see who I am talking about, they think I am talking about three different people. Because they have no experience of God, they think it's three different people.
 

To make it even more confusing, you have - for example - Vaishnav texts in which - 
1. They call the Supreme God as Vishnu.
2. But then they also say Vishnu created Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv. 
3. And that Brahma and Shiv bow down to Vishnu.
4. They might even say Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv are also effected by Ahankar.

(Other texts may mirror this.)

So you have this hierarchy -

1 Vishnu - topmost, absolute consciousness
2 Maya - the world
3 Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv - as existing within the world
Other things etc, like Gurus, people, animals - as existing within the world

So Vishnu creates Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv...

But wait there's more!

Then they will have some avtars as well.

So in the Vaishnav example, we have -

1. Vaman
2. Narsingh
3. Ram
4. Krishna
etc

And these are same as Vishnu
 

So you have this hierarchy -
1. Vishnu - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are Vishnu
2. Maya
3. Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv
4. Other things etc, like Gurus, people, animals - as existing within the world - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are in the created world

 

Just wait. There's more!
 

Then you have your Guru, who by meditative practice or by divine grace has merged into Vishnu so ...

So you have this hierarchy -
1. Vishnu - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are Vishnu and your Guru, because he has merged into Vishnu
2. Maya - the world
3. Brahma-Vishnu-Shiv
4. Other things etc, like Gurus, people, animals - as existing within the world - also Vaman, Narsingh, Ram, Krishna because they are in the created world

 

Are you confused yet bro? Are you confused yet?!?

Let me know if you are confused and whether or not you want to resolve this confusion.

gotcha

[BhagatSingh]

35 minutes ago, tva prasad said:

gotcha

Haha good.

[Ragmaala]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

Actually, we are in a dream of Brahma jee. When he wakes up, that would be end of this earth/solar system.

suppose our brahma jee decides to wake up tomorrow, what will happen to us humans ? do we simple merge back into Waheguru...because isnt atma indestructible

[paapiman]

3 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

suppose our brahma jee decides to wake up tomorrow, what will happen to us humans ? do we simple merge back into Waheguru...because isnt atma indestructible

He will not wake up tomorrow. Don't worry about it. Brahma jee is bound by time. Kaljug still has many years left to rule. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

6 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

do we simple merge back into Waheguru...because isnt atma indestructible

Even if he wakes up, that would be the end of this solar system only. Life exists at other places too. If a solar system is destroyed, then all living beings in that system might reincarnate somewhere else.

It might be the Mahaparloh, when everything merges back into Sri Waheguru jee.

ਜਬ ਆਕਰਖ ਕਰਤ ਹੋ ਕਬਹੂੰ ॥ ਤੁਮ ਮੈ ਮਿਲਤ ਦੇਹ ਧਰ ਸਭਹੂੰ ॥੩੮੯॥

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, Ragmaala said:

suppose our brahma jee decides to wake up tomorrow, what will happen to us humans ? do we simple merge back into Waheguru...because isnt atma indestructible

In Vedant, Brahma's dream is referring to your current perception of the world itself -> the world is a dream.

The world is experienced by you, who is consciousness -> Atma/Brahma. You are currently perceiving reality in a dream state, meaning you are not perceiving what is absolutely real (Brahma), instead you are dreaming.

When you have no Brahmgyan (no knowledge of Brahma), no Atamgyan (no knowledge of consciousness), then it is said you are living in a dream state.

This is known as a dream state because when you are in a dream, everything appears real and solid. You think those things are happening to you for real. But in reality it is not real. It's not as real as when you wake up. When you wake up, everything that happened in the dream seems fuzzy and false. You thought you were seeing things clearly in the dream, you thought the dream was happening to you but when you wake up you realize you were not seeing anything clearly at all.

When you wake up from sleep you realize the dream is false. When you wake up (obtain knowledge) from your sleep (ignorance) you realize the dream (world) is false.

This world is a dream, you (Atma/Brahma) are dreaming it up. When you wake up, you will see Brahma, meaning you will see the reality of the world. Your everyday experience of reality is transformed into something spiritual and profound. You wake up to the reality of life, which is beautiful but also ugly. You see everything with utmost clarity.

This is what happens when Brahma wakes up.

[JasperS]

4 hours ago, paapiman said:

He will not wake up tomorrow. Don't worry about it. Brahma jee is bound by time. Kaljug still has many years left to rule. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

If Brahma is Waheguru (one in the same just different names) how can Brahma be bound by time? Time is part of construct of physical reality only (and its proven by science, go into black hole and time will stand still. Time also varies according to the observer. It's not something static and linear like we experience it.) Isn't Gurbani explicit on this, that Akal Purakh is ONE. In order for everything to exist in a state of ONEness there can not be change. Time implies change, therefore it's only experienced from within the illusion / dream. Think of it like this: If a book is laid on a table, it contains all of the information for the entire story all at once (looking at it from outside perspective) but as you read it, you become immersed within it and experience the time passing in the story.  Well, Waheguru is more the book itself. Containing all the information, all the characters, all time, all at once. Its only through experiencing the story from within it, that time has any bearing.

But @tva prasad don't worry because you are actually the same one consciousness that is dreaming. You won't ever cease to exist. The character you are playing right now will, but the conscious awareness that is YOU, will never cease. It can't. That is precisely what the base truth to existence actually is. 

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, JasperS said:

If Brahma is Waheguru (one in the same just different names) how can Brahma be bound by time?

Time is part of construct of physical reality only

Time also varies according to the observer.

Brahma is the source of time (kaal) and all other things. He is not bound by time for the reasons you stated.

In Vedant, Brahma, who is Absolute Consciousness, is the source of all things. Everything is perceived in Consciousness, that is why Consciousness is known as the Creator/Source. Hence Brahma the Creator.

You understand things like this because you have studied Vedant either directly or indirectly. You are advanced practitioner of such knowledge.

Quote

 In order for everything to exist in a state of ONEness there can not be change. Time implies change, therefore it's only experienced from within the illusion / dream.

Change is also part of Oneness. The illusion/ the dream is also part of Oneness. It is my experience that the state of Oneness includes everything and nothing.

But when we talk about Oneness, immediately it develops into a particular philosophy that is no longer Oneness. Oneness is exists prior to any philosophy. But when discussed it becomes into a philosophy, which is part of the creation but not in itself oneness.

So we must recognize the difference between the actual and our philosophy that is used to try to describe the actuality. We must recognize the difference between the top of the mountain and the path to get to the top.

 

And I mention this to bring up a different philosophy where Time is not thought about in the same way we have talked about above. This is Mahakal. In this philosophy, the Supreme God is known as Kaal (time) or Mahakal (supreme time). Time is the overarching Supreme Reality. Nothing exists outside of time.

There is no other moment other than the Present Moment. Present Moment is that oneness in which all things exist.

Time creates, Time maintains, Time destroys. Time is that book (in your example) that contains all things.

Previously we were referring to God as Consciousness (Brahma). Here we have referred to God as Time (Mahakal). God can also be seen as the Guiding Principle (Waheguru).

 

In my opinion, all of these different philosophies are ultimately pointing to the same reality. But when you have different names and different philosophies. Now it starts to look like you have different Gods. Already in this post, there is a Brahma character, Mahakal character, Waheguru character.

The ones who do not know the secret, they think these are all different Gods.

In the end, we must stick to a particular philosophy. But we should also transcend that philosophy and learn the one secret behind everything.

Quote

But @tva prasad don't worry because you are actually the same one consciousness that is dreaming. You won't ever cease to exist. The character you are playing right now will, but the conscious awareness that is YOU, will never cease. It can't. That is precisely what the base truth to existence actually is. 

 

Exactly Atma is Brahma.

@Ragmaala When the sages said Brahma dreams and the universe comes into being in the way it does. They were talking about YOU. You are Brahma. You are dreaming and that's why the universe is the way it is. Only you can know what happens when you wake up. You have to wake yourself up to see what happens!

[tva prasad]

Brahma (deity, the one who dreams as described in posts above) is bound kaal (time). But Brahma is also a name of god, akal purkh (not bound by kaal. Our atma is a part of him).

does time come under Maya? Just confirming :D

[paapiman]

5 hours ago, tva prasad said:

Brahma (deity, the one who dreams as described in posts above) is bound kaal (time). But Brahma is also a name of god, akal purkh (not bound by kaal. Our atma is a part of him).

Exactly. 

 

5 hours ago, tva prasad said:

does time come under Maya? Just confirming :D

Maya is also bound by time.

It goes like this:

200 human years = 1 day of Indar devta

200 lifetimes of Indar devta = 1 day and night of Brahma jee

200 lifetimes of Brahma jee = 1 day and night of Shivjee

200 lifetimes of Shivjee = 1 day and nIght of Vishnu jee

200 lifetimes of Vishnu jee = 1 Chhin of Maya

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

7 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

@Ragmaala When the sages said Brahma dreams and the universe comes into being in the way it does. They were talking about YOU. You are Brahma. You are dreaming and that's why the universe is the way it is. Only you can know what happens when you wake up. You have to wake yourself up to see what happens!

The above is also true, but it does not change the fact that we are in a dream of Brahma jee (the deity made by Sri Waheguru jee for creation). Therefore, there are two layers of dreams here.

We are dreaming in a dream.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

16 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

In Vedant, Brahma's dream is referring to your current perception of the world itself -> the world is a dream.

The world is experienced by you, who is consciousness -> Atma/Brahma. You are currently perceiving reality in a dream state, meaning you are not perceiving what is absolutely real (Brahma), instead you are dreaming.

When you have no Brahmgyan (no knowledge of Brahma), no Atamgyan (no knowledge of consciousness), then it is said you are living in a dream state.

This is known as a dream state because when you are in a dream, everything appears real and solid. You think those things are happening to you for real. But in reality it is not real. It's not as real as when you wake up. When you wake up, everything that happened in the dream seems fuzzy and false. You thought you were seeing things clearly in the dream, you thought the dream was happening to you but when you wake up you realize you were not seeing anything clearly at all.

When you wake up from sleep you realize the dream is false. When you wake up (obtain knowledge) from your sleep (ignorance) you realize the dream (world) is false.

This world is a dream, you (Atma/Brahma) are dreaming it up. When you wake up, you will see Brahma, meaning you will see the reality of the world. Your everyday experience of reality is transformed into something spiritual and profound. You wake up to the reality of life, which is beautiful but also ugly. You see everything with utmost clarity.

This is what happens when Brahma wakes up.

Good. 

So we are dreaming within a dream eh...

have you noticed when an extreme emotion happens either negative or positive...it feels like a dream... Esp when you lose something precious it feels it's not real and you wish it's just a dream...

[Guest Wake Up]

Also notice when something traumatic happens that time seems to slow down or everything seems to go in slow motion? 

I recommend if you can find it, a paper written by Dr Asoka Selvaraja called the Sleeper Awakens.

It really explains well the concept of the dreamer within a dream. But in reality it's ultimately one dreamer no matter how many levels inward you go. There was a movie that touched on this concept indirectly as well, I think it was called the Thirteenth Floor. 

[BhagatSingh]

2 hours ago, Guest Wake Up said:

But in reality it's ultimately one dreamer no matter how many levels inward you go.

Exactly.

@Ragmaala @paapiman

You are not dreaming within a dream of someone else. You are that who is dreaming.

We are all that, that collective consciousness., who has been dreaming. Some of us have woken up though and are participating in the dream in a waking state.

[BhagatSingh]

12 hours ago, tva prasad said:

Brahma (deity, the one who dreams as described in posts above) is bound kaal (time). But Brahma is also a name of god, akal purkh (not bound by kaal. Our atma is a part of him).

Rather, Brahma, who is Akal Purakh (not bound by Time), is dreaming. This world is the dream of Akal Purakh, who is known as Brahma.

Now that's a spiritual idea.

Do not make it into a belief system.

It is only to give you an understanding of yourself.

It is talking about you Tva Prasad. You are Brahma/Akal Purakh, dreaming right now in your waking state.

Meaning you are attached to a reality which is not ultimately real. Your perception is not real.

But the one having the perception, dreaming up reality, is ultimately real.

That which is ultimately real is Brahma.

Quote

does time come under Maya? Just confirming :D

In some philosophies, Kaal is considered part of Maya.
In other philosophies, Kaal is beyond Maya, and is known as Mahakal (Supreme Time).

In some philosophies, Purakh creates Maya.
In some philosophies, Maya creates Purakh.

This is not something you can confirm because it is a philosophical question.There are different philosophies that address the question in various ways.

However you can ask "in Guru Granth Sahib, does time come under Maya?" Then the answer is yes.
In the philosophical system of Guru Granth Sahib, Kaal is considered part of Maya, and Purakh creates Maya.

[Ragmaala]

hmm some good perspectives ,glad to hear.

[JasperS]

6 hours ago, Guest Wake Up said:

Also notice when something traumatic happens that time seems to slow down or everything seems to go in slow motion? 

I recommend if you can find it, a paper written by Dr Asoka Selvaraja called the Sleeper Awakens.

It really explains well the concept of the dreamer within a dream. But in reality it's ultimately one dreamer no matter how many levels inward you go. There was a movie that touched on this concept indirectly as well, I think it was called the Thirteenth Floor. 

I have read a lot of his work actually! Here is the article for benefit of others. I have not seen that movie but you have me interested so I shall now look it up. 

The Sleeper Awakens

When we awaken from dreams, we realize that they were not real, but entirely of our own creation. In a dream, you are the participant as well as the creator of all the other characters and the settings. In like manner, everyday reality can also be viewed from this dream perspective; a dream from which each of us will one day awaken to realize that this too was an illusion of earthly consciousness.

Yet, many things in everyday existence do have apparent reality. There are many things we can all independently agree upon. So, if this is the case, who is doing the dreaming?

The answer may be that we all are - collectively. If we are the Universe, as well as essentially being spiritually One - indivisibly part of the Source/God/Creator of all - then we can conclude that we co-create the joint dream-reality we all participate in and perceive around us.

It is our spiritual life task to gradually awaken within the dream. At this point, we will be fully spiritually aware, seeing things as they really are and not with distorted perceptions. Then, if we participate in this world of forms and shadows, it will be through conscious choice; a full awareness that make our best present efforts resemble deepest slumber.

But what is the purpose of this complex interwoven dance we call life? Why did we manifest in this manner? The stories of esoteric spiritual teachings can help here. For example, the Garden of Eden story teaches that through tasting the apple of the knowledge of Good and Evil, we lost sight of the Divine Consciousness, and were sent into exile from true reality into this world of dreams.

What is the symbolic significance of the apple of the knowledge of Good and Evil? It represents the choice to live through misperception, and to view life from the standpoint of Duality and Division; Good and Evil, Right and Wrong, Life and Death, etc. Instead of participating in Unity consciousness, we choose Duality and are thus exiled from the divine spiritual perspective into this confusing world of ever moving shadows. We live in the world of Effects, without ever seeing the world of Causes.

Division entered and this was the Fall. We divided off from the divine part of ourselves and have ceased to even know it. Instead, we live in the world of shadows, obsessed with duality, and seeing no further than our senses permit. The way back is guarded by an angel with a flaming sword, because the attainment of eternal life is impossible as long as we remain mired in temporal earthly things. Nothing mired in an earthly consciousness can have any share in eternity.

At yet another level, the reality we see around us is the direct result of our individual karma, the group karma of our race and nation, as well as the collective karma of humanity. Life is a huge learning arena, set into play by ourselves for ourselves in order to stimulate our own awakening. However long it takes for this to occur is precisely how long it WILL take for each and every one of us.

Does this mean that the universe does not exist and is totally a creation of our minds? From an earthly perspective, it clearly does exist and possesses certain objective truths that we can agree upon that can be measured. Yet, even at the earthly level, the universe can be rightly called illusory in the sense that all is not as it appears. It may exist but it is certainly not the way we think it is. For example, the everyday objects we judge as solid are mostly empty space. Our senses do perceive and make sense of what is "out there" beyond our own bodies, but do not define it. A map is NOT the territory. A cat, a fly, a bird and a human may look upon the same scene and sense entirely different realities. Which is right? In truth, all are nothing more than interpretations of the unknowable shifting realm "out there".

So, from an earthly perspective, the world does have many elements of objective reality, whilst also simultaneously having many illusory sides to it. Ultimately, we may find it is composed of nothing at all except pure Thought and Mind. The universe is increasingly giving this impression at present, as our scientific techniques become ever more refined, and our instruments probe ever deeper in search of the essence of truth.

Spiritually, it definitely does appear that we participate and co-create in what we see around us. It is primarily our duality-oriented vision that causes us to see only in terms of right/wrong, good/evil, civilized/ignorant, life/death. From the undivided perspective of pure divine consciousness, all is as it should be. Nothing ever really dies, but merely changes state. Indeed, death is a necessary part of life itself. Life itself would be impossible without death. Seeing them as opposites or antagonists is the classic example of dualistic thinking.

Your purpose then should be to work within the world system, and the lessons it presents, in order to liberate your thinking and achieve the consciousness that sees all things as they really are. Deep pondering can assist this. Meditation will also break down the barriers. A willingness to perceive people and reality as they really are, without any judgments or dualistic notions, will definitely speed up your awakening.

In addition, refusal to participate in unhelpful attitudes or behavior will not only help you, but will subtly alter the fabric of the world we are all co-creating. If you see war outside of yourself, but do not see it in your very heart, you are truly blind to causes. If you see it within and eradicate it, then you make it easier to eradicate without. World change starts with personal change, and a correct perspective on "What Is"; willingness to change what you can and wisdom to let be what is beyond your control. What is within you is definitely within your power to control and master.

Copyright 2000, Asoka Selvarajah. All Rights Reserved.

Author's Bio: 

Dr. Asoka Selvarajah is an active writer/researcher on personal development and esoteric spirituality. Asoka's work helps people achieve their full potential, deepen their understanding of mystical truth, and find joy in their true soul's purpose.

[tva prasad]

Just now, BhagatSingh said:

 

 

However you can ask "in Guru Granth Sahib, does time come under Maya?" Then the answer is yes.
In the philosophical system of Guru Granth Sahib, Kaal is considered part of Maya, and Purakh creates Maya.

thought so ?

[chatanga1]

On 30/09/2016 at 8:49 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Are you confused yet bro? Are you confused yet?!?

Yes. YES!

On 01/10/2016 at 11:03 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Some of us have woken up though and are participating in the dream in a waking state.

How is one different in this waking state? What changes in your daily life?

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-10-04 at 5:35 AM, chatanga1 said:

Yes. YES!

Lol.

Are you really?

On 2016-10-04 at 5:35 AM, chatanga1 said:

How is one different in this waking state? What changes in your daily life?

Well for one, you enjoy daily life more and the quality of your life improves.

Another change is in mental clarity - It's like going from an old analog TV to a digital HD TV.

[chatanga1]

On 30/09/2016 at 9:44 PM, paapiman said:

According to Sri Dasam Granth Sahib jee, Sri Waheguru jee first created Maya, then created Vishnu jee, then Braham jee and then Shiv jee.

According to Japji Sahib, "eka mai jugat viai, tin chele parwaan" The one divine mother created the 3 disciples- Brahma, Vishnu and Mahesh.