Creation according to Gurmat

[Ragmaala]

I think everyone knows this one.  Japji Sahib & Bhai Gurdas Ji have been well discussed on this forum.

ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਆਕਾਰ ਕਰਿ ਏਕ ਕਵਾਉ ਪਸਾਉ ਪਸਾਰਾ।

[Sajjan_Thug]

Lecture 70 - In the beginning: http://youtu.be/3HK__luJEUQ

[Ragmaala]

18 minutes ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Lecture 70 - In the beginning: http://youtu.be/3HK__luJEUQ

watch from 12:00

[Ragmaala]

also  19:32

[Jatro]

This might also be relevant

ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥

From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.

The best explanation of ਪਵਨਾ i've come across is from Faridkot teeka, there it's defined as Pawan devta (or the god of air), the explanation by Bhai Vir Singh ji talks of origin of gases and the three forms of matter 

[paapiman]

On 3/7/2016 at 0:41 PM, Jatro said:

This might also be relevant

ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥

From the True Lord came the air, and from the air came water.

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥

From water, He created the three worlds; in each and every heart He has infused His Light.

The best explanation of ਪਵਨਾ i've come across is from Faridkot teeka, there it's defined as Pawan devta (or the god of air), the explanation by Bhai Vir Singh ji talks of origin of gases and the three forms of matter 

Bro, can you please provide a brief description of the explanation by Bhai saab Bhai Vir SIngh jee?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Jatro]

6 hours ago, paapiman said:

Bro, can you please provide a brief description of the explanation by Bhai saab Bhai Vir SIngh jee?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes brother, Bhai saab basically says that 'pavan' in Punjabi has feminine gender but here it has been used in the masculine gender so it could mean 'sookham pavan' or gases such as hydrogen helium etc from which the planets were formed. Alternatively it could refer to stages of creation, so first we had earth as a giant clump of gas from which liquid and solid forms emerged, after all of this Akal Purakh fused the 'jot' and human life came about. I'm attaching the extract from the teeka

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, Jatro said:

Yes brother, Bhai saab basically says that 'pavan' in Punjabi has feminine gender but here it has been used in the masculine gender so it could mean 'sookham pavan' or gases such as hydrogen helium etc from which the planets were formed. Alternatively it could refer to stages of creation, so first we had earth as a giant clump of gas from which liquid and solid forms emerged, after all of this Akal Purakh fused the 'jot' and human life came about. I'm attaching the extract from the teeka

Thanks a lot paaji.

Bhai Saab Bhai Vir Singh jee was a great Saint-Scholar.

Dhan Dhan Bhai Saab jee

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

13 hours ago, Jatro said:

Yes brother, Bhai saab basically says that 'pavan' in Punjabi has feminine gender but here it has been used in the masculine gender so it could mean 'sookham pavan' or gases such as hydrogen helium etc from which the planets were formed. Alternatively it could refer to stages of creation, so first we had earth as a giant clump of gas from which liquid and solid forms emerged, after all of this Akal Purakh fused the 'jot' and human life came about. I'm attaching the extract from the teeka

Just bumping this up because I want to look at it more carefully later. Great share. What teeka is this from? 

[BhagatSingh]

@dalsingh101

This goes back to what we were discussing earlier.

From Subtle -> Gross

Ether/Consciousness/Heart -> Air -> Water -> Earth
 

ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥

Since air is the most subtle, it is representative of the Guru archetype.

Water is the next most fluid and subtle, thus it is representative of the Father archetype.

Earth is the least subtle and least fluid, thus it is representative of the Mother archetype.

[BhagatSingh]

This is ancient lore but it has a deeper meaning.
1. Guru Sahib is saying -

 ਸਾਚੇ ਤੇ ਪਵਨਾ ਭਇਆ ਪਵਨੈ ਤੇ ਜਲੁ ਹੋਇ ॥ ਜਲ ਤੇ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਸਾਜਿਆ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਸਮੋਇ ॥
From the subtle came the gross.
From the most subtle (ਸਾਚੇ) Hari, spiritual, came (ਪਵਨਾ) the less subtle elements. From the less subtle elements came (ਜਲੁ) even less subtle elements. These elements then forms the "watery womb of Maya", material, from this material came bodies and places of living.

 

2. This is correlated to our body.

ਜੋ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡੇ ਸੋਈ ਪਿੰਡੇ ਜੋ ਖੋਜੈ ਸੋ ਪਾਵੈ ॥
That which is in the universe, is in our body, those who seek find it.

Subtle means intuitive, spiritual, light, etheric
Gross means sensory, material, heavy, hard
The universe exists in the range of subtle to gross. They are relative to each other.  Like water is subtle when compared to earth but gross when compared to air.

So our body is gross, it is material, and senstory, and we are identified with the gross body, we must work our way inwards and go through all the levels of subtlety to find the most subtle that is Hari, who is intuitive, spirit and etheric.

From the subtle came the gross. We are so identified with gross that we start at gross. We must work our way back to subtle, and thus the most subtle which is Hari.

 

3. This ties into the

ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥

Since air is the most subtle, it is representative of the Guru archetype. The Guru is someone who has worked back from gross to subtle to Hari. We need the Guru because we need someone who has the subtlety in them, who can see that subtle dimension and take us there.

[BhagatSingh]

Another way to think about gross and subtle, is to look at it in terms of impressions.

Imagine you are at the gross level, at the earth level. You are like clay, so whenever there is a negative experience, someone presses in to the clay, it leaves an impression in the clay and it stays for a long time, thus you suffer more.

As you progress spiritually, you become water. When there is a negative experience, someone throws a rock into the water, there are ripples, but they pass away more quickly.

As you progress spiritually, you become air. Where there is a negative experience, someone waves their hand, the air moves but settles back almost immediately. Thus negative experiences, do not stick to air.

As your progress spiritually and become Hari, ether-like, pure space, pure void. Nothing makes any ripples or sticks. There is no impressions.

It's a way of thinking about it.

 

(Impressions also mean attachment. To be without attachment is to be without any impressions on you. To not hold onto anything.

Impression is a metaphor for that which shakes you. The more gross you are, the more you shaken when there is trouble. The more subtle you are, the less you shake.)

[Jatro]

11 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Just bumping this up because I want to look at it more carefully later. Great share. What teeka is this from? 

It's from Santhiya Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Volume 1, I downloaded it from gurmatveechar.com

[dalsingh101]

@BhagatSingh

 

Mate, all your use and definitions of 'subtle' seem to have originated from your mind more than anywhere else. All of your framing of a spiritual journey seems to have stemmed from your own subjective experiences. The problem with this is that it doesn't factor in different paths individual consciousness may traverse in connecting with the supreme consciousness. 

I think you may be projecting your presumptions, preconceptions and experiences quite a bit on your interpretations, which is fine, but again, there seems to be a problem with being able to distinguish between your own ideas and experiences and those of others. 

That being said, keep doing what you're doing. This is your personal journey. 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, Jatro said:

It's from Santhiya Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Volume 1, I downloaded it from gurmatveechar.com

Jatro, is it possible for you to post the interpretation of the concluding part of Japji from this?

 

The bit that starts:

ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥

[amardeep]

Here are the Fareedkot Nirmala teeka on the Pavan Guru shalok.

ਜਗਤ ਕੋ ਬਾਲਕ ਰੂਪੁ ਮਾਨ ਕਰ ਤਿਸ ਕੇ ਰੱਖਕ ਕਹਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਕਿ ਸਾਰੇ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਪੌਣੁ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੇ ਦੋ ਭਾਉ ਹੈਂ ਏਕ ਤੋ ਸਭ ਮੇ ਵਡਾ ਪੌਨੁ ਹੈ ਕ੍ਯੋਂਕਿ ਸਭ ਇੰਦ੍ਰਯ ਪੌਨੁ ਹੀ ਕੇ ਆਸਰੇ ਇਸਥਿਤ ਹੈਂ ਤਾਂ ਤੇ ਸਭ ਕਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਪੌਨੁ ਕਹਾ ਵਾ ਗੁਰਾ ਕਾ ਜੋ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਹੈ ਸੋ ਪੌਂਣ ਸੇ ਹੋਤਾ ਹੈ ਭਾਵ ਪੌਂਣ ਕਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਹੋਤਾ ਹੈ ਇਸੀ ਤੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਕਹਾ ਔਰ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈ ਕਿਉਂਕਿ ਜਲ ਸੇਂ ਸਰਬ ਕੀ ਉਤਪਤਿ ਹੋਤੀ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਸੇ ਪਾਣੀ ਜਗਤ ਕਾ ਪਿਤਾ ਹੈ ਔਰ (ਮਹਤੁ) ਵਡੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤੀ ਹੈ ਜੈਸੇ ਮਾਤਾ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕੋ ਉਠਾਈ ਰਖਤੀ ਹੈ ਤੈਸੇ ਬਾਲਕ ਕੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਜਾ ਕੋ ਅਪਨੇ ਊਪਰ ਉਠਾਈ ਰਖਤੀ ਹੈ ਔਰੁ ਅੰਨੁ ਉਤਪੰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਉਦਰ ਪੋਖਣ ਕਰਤੀ ਹੈ ਭਾਵ ਮਾਤਾ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਕਾ ਮਲੁ ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ ਤੇ ਸਿੱਟ ਦੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਇਸੀ ਤੇ ਜਨਮ ਕੀ ਮਾਤਾ ਤੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਵੀ ਅਧਿਕ ਹੈ॥ ਇਸ ਮੇਂ ਏਕ ਵੇਦ ਕਾ ਇਤਹਾਸ ਹੈ ਏਕ ਸਮੇ ਸਭ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਯੋਂ ਕਾ ਵਿਵਾਦ ਹੂਆ ਸਭ ਅਪਨੇ ਕੋ ਵਡਾ ਕਹਨੇ ਲਗੇ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਜੀ ਪਾਸ ਨ੍ਯਾਇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਗਏ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਕਹਾ ਕਿ ਏਕ ਏਕ ਤੁਮ ਸਰੀਰ ਸੇ ਬਾਹਰ ਹੋਤੇ ਜਾਓ ਤੋ ਨੇਤ੍ਰਾਦਿ ਇੰਦ੍ਰੀਓਂ ਕੇ ਬਾਹਰ ਹੋਨੇ ਸੇ ਭੀ ਬਿਵਹਾਰ ਸਿਧ ਹੋਤਾ ਰਹਾ ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਾਨਿ ਨਿਕਲਨੇ ਲਗੇ ਔਰ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਗਿਰਨੇ ਲਗਾ ਤਬ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਜੀ ਨੇ ਕਹਾ ਸਭ ਸੇ ਵਡਾ ਪੌਨ ਹੈ ਇਸ ਬਿਨਾ ਬਿਵਹਾਰ ਸਿਧ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਤਾ॥

[paapiman]

6 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Another way to think about gross and subtle, is to look at it in terms of impressions.

Imagine you are at the gross level, at the earth level. You are like clay, so whenever there is a negative experience, someone presses in to the clay, it leaves an impression in the clay and it stays for a long time, thus you suffer more.

As you progress spiritually, you become water. When there is a negative experience, someone throws a rock into the water, there are ripples, but they pass away more quickly.

As you progress spiritually, you become air. Where there is a negative experience, someone waves their hand, the air moves but settles back almost immediately. Thus negative experiences, do not stick to air.

As your progress spiritually and become Hari, ether-like, pure space, pure void. Nothing makes any ripples or sticks. There is no impressions.

It's a way of thinking about it.

 

(Impressions also mean attachment. To be without attachment is to be without any impressions on you. To not hold onto anything.

Impression is a metaphor for that which shakes you. The more gross you are, the more you shaken when there is trouble. The more subtle you are, the less you shake.)

Excellent insights. What do you mean by "ether like"? like space?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Jatro]

2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Jatro, is it possible for you to post the interpretation of the concluding part of Japji from this?

 

The bit that starts:

ਪਵਣੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਪਾਣੀ ਪਿਤਾ ਮਾਤਾ ਧਰਤਿ ਮਹਤੁ ॥

Sure brother, i'm attaching the screenshots. My personal opinion on 'pavan guru' is that the Guru wanted to attack personhood (the feeling that we are identical with our bodies, or that we ARE our bodies) which creates selfishness, cowardice and egotistical behaviour, so the Guru always emphasized on distinct parts which make up a person. So we have

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਬੋਲੈ ਪਉਣੁ ॥

The body is dust; the wind speaks through it.

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੂਆ ਹੈ ਕਉਣੁ ॥

Understand, O wise one, who has died.

 

 

As we all know voice of human beings is generated through the flow of air from the lungs to the larynx. So essentially it's the air that is speaking. So Pavan is Guru because it is only through Pavan that the Gurshabad is emerging.

[dalsingh101]

On 3/13/2016 at 9:45 AM, Jatro said:

 

Tried translating it, this is as far as I got. 

Quote

 

Pavna - (Sanskrit - Pavan), the  word pavan is the name of air. In Panjabi the word pavan is feminine  but here the word pavna has been used after changing it to masculine. It could be that the meaning [of the word] is not air but 'sookhum pavan', which is referred to as gas; because it is written that "water is manifest" from pavnay. Water is made from two gases, which are called hydrogen and oxygen. 

First air, then water and then creation: this sequence is different to the Puranic sequence. From this, there is a possibility that Guru ji is giving their own account here, which is that gas, liquid, creation's (traibhavan) underlying solidity, is divided thus. That the Lord created gassy air, fluid-liquid and cosmic solids, and having fashioned these 3 categories, which can change to each other inbetween themselves, created the world, and by placing their light within,  produced the animate universe.

(A) It could also be that by saying 'pavna' the intended meaning was from the two elements 'sky' and 'air', and then the third 'water'. From saying the 3 elements we should  take it to mean the 5 elements.  [????]

 

It's obvious BVS is using basic science he has learned from his western education and is experimenting with applying it to Gurbani. Specifically the second para is directly speaking about what is known as 'kinetic theory' which is core material for 15 year olds learning physics in the UK.

To me the really interesting thing is how, due to colonialism, we see the emergence of teekas that are in all essence experimental in their explanations. Before western science came to Panjab via colonisation, no one would ever interpret bani in this way. They'd be much more likely to do it along Indic lines. 

On a deeper level what do we make of that? 

[Ragmaala]

14 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Another way to think about gross and subtle, is to look at it in terms of impressions.

Imagine you are at the gross level, at the earth level. You are like clay, so whenever there is a negative experience, someone presses in to the clay, it leaves an impression in the clay and it stays for a long time, thus you suffer more.

As you progress spiritually, you become water. When there is a negative experience, someone throws a rock into the water, there are ripples, but they pass away more quickly.

As you progress spiritually, you become air. Where there is a negative experience, someone waves their hand, the air moves but settles back almost immediately. Thus negative experiences, do not stick to air.

As your progress spiritually and become Hari, ether-like, pure space, pure void. Nothing makes any ripples or sticks. There is no impressions.

It's a way of thinking about it.

 

(Impressions also mean attachment. To be without attachment is to be without any impressions on you. To not hold onto anything.

Impression is a metaphor for that which shakes you. The more gross you are, the more you shaken when there is trouble. The more subtle you are, the less you shake.)

Where do you learn this stuff...this one is quite amazing I have to say. What are your secret sources lol

What you said above also reminds me about a Shabad by Bhagat Kabir ji where he gives examples of being a stone on road, and then being a dust, not satisfied with that being water , and not satisfied with all three, being like Hari himself only. Maybe that is also similar to transformations in ones journey.

 

[Ragmaala]

40 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Tried translating it, this is as far as I got. 

It's obvious BVS is using basic science he has learned from his western education and is experimenting with applying it to Gurbani. Specifically the second para is directly speaking about what is known as 'kinetic theory' as is core material for 15 year olds learning physics in the UK.

To me the really interesting thing is how, due to colonialism, we see the emergence of teekas that are in all essence experimental in their explanations. Before western science came to Panjab via colonisation, no one would ever interpret bani in this way. They'd be much more likely to do it along Indic lines. 

On a deeper level what do we make of that? 

Good Insight.

[Ragmaala]

8 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

@BhagatSingh

 

Mate, all your use and definitions of 'subtle' seem to have originated from your mind more than anywhere else. All of your framing of a spiritual journey seems to have stemmed from your own subjective experiences. The problem with this is that it doesn't factor in different paths individual consciousness may traverse in connecting with the supreme consciousness. 

I think you may be projecting your presumptions, preconceptions and experiences quite a bit on your interpretations, which is fine, but again, there seems to be a problem with being able to distinguish between your own ideas and experiences and those of others. 

That being said, keep doing what you're doing. This is your personal journey. 

Good analysis as well.

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Impression is a metaphor for that which shakes you. The more gross you are, the more you shaken when there is trouble. The more subtle you are, the less you shake.)

There is a problem with that analogy. 

Some people who overtly profess spirituality are essentially extreme physical cowards, because the trauma of the dealing with the 'gross' (as you term it, but what is essentially physical, earthly reality to me) is beyond their psychological and physical abilities to confront directly. War and systematic violent oppression (which our Gurus and forefather's dealt with not too long ago) is a great example to give of this. 

Thing with  our Gurus is that they never did a very traditional Indian thing and ducked out of society. 

Instead, they took leadership roles and dealt with all problems: social, political, educational, spiritual, cultural and military. If some of these things are considered lesser 'gross' factors (which is what you seem to be suggesting?), then we should note that our Gurus daily engaged with these challenges and involved Sikhs (and nonSikhs!) in their battles on this front. They didn't just limit themselves to expounding lofty theological or spiritual matters. 

It could be that the more 'subtle' a person appears, or to put it another way, to remain this elusive 'subtle', a person strategically ends up ducking serious challenges that might well shake them up, thus giving them a false illusion of being 'subtle'. A person can't tell what they are until they are seriously challenged -  in my opinion. When all theory gets put to the test.  

 

If our Guru's demonstrated this capacity for subtlety (as you put it) - they did it in the most extreme and challenging of situations - that they voluntarily placed themselves in for  a greater cause. Even everydays Singhs were doing this.

Until someone demonstrates this capacity of demonstrating this  'subtlety' you speak of, under serious duress  I'd be quite wary of believing in any of their professed abilities, because, for all we know, when faced with some grim, life-challenging reality, they may well start crying and run off, calling their mommies name? 

I need to see how this 'subtly' holds under fire, preferably on more than one occasion - remaining detached in a closeted, comfortable, isolated context, isn't any sort of achievement in my experience.

[BhagatSingh]

@dalsingh101

Maybe you ought to first understand what I am saying before criticizing?

You are coming at me with so much of your own baggage. How can I even communicate with someone, who has a put up a wall, a shield of presumptions, criticisms and other baggage? But of course I must.

This is the gross mind, with baggage, it is heavy. It's like an elephant. The elephant cannot separate sugar particles from sand particles.

Be subtle, be light, be without baggage. Be like an ant, the ant can separate sugar particles from sand particles.

See how light an ant is? It is very subtle.

Of course, you must be careful of being an ant on the battlefield. On the battlefield, you must be a drunk elephant. You gotta trample many foes.

So it is situation-dependent. It is context dependent.

In Gurbani, Bhagat Kabir ji talks about being an ant and picking up (Hari, gyan) sugar particles from the  (Maya, agyan) sand. He contrasts this with an elephant, who is not able to do that.

ਹਰਿ ਭਇਓ ਖਾਂਡੁ ਰੇਤੁ ਮਹਿ ਬਿਖਰਿਓ ਹਸਤੀਂ ਚੁਨਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
Hari is like sugar mixed in with sand and spread out, an elephant cannot pick out the sugar.
ਕਹਿ ਕਮੀਰ ਕੁਲ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਂਤਿ ਤਜਿ ਚੀਟੀ ਹੋਇ ਚੁਨਿ ਖਾਈ ॥੨॥੩॥੧੨॥
Kabir ji says, leave behind your baggage* and be an ant and eat the sugar.
(baggage - your tribe, fanclub, profession, ancestory, status etc your identity, even your acquired knowledge and experience)

Gurbani is taking you from gross to subtle. It is talking about subtlety.
I am doing katha of gurbani, so of course I am going to speak of subtlety as the goal.

On a battlefield, you are fighting with bodies. So gross tactics must be employed. When you are out in the world, you have to deal with gross things.

I am not denying that.

If a tornado is coming at you, you aren't going to be like "I am an ant, I have acquired Hari. Tornado is nothing before me" If someone is coming at you with a knife, you can't be like "I am water, the knife won't hurt me" You idiot of course the tornado and knife will hurt you, you must protect your gross body. Fight or Flight

However

When it comes to knowledge and the battle with ego, then you are fighting with shit that is extremely subtle. You must be the ant.

Ahankar (Ahan – I, Kar- Continous), the constant sense of self that sees itself as separate from everyone else, can neither be destroyed inside nor outside nor upside nor downside nor by man nor by animal nor by projectile nor by weapon nor by day nor by night. Ahankar can only be destroyed by Hari himself. In this sketch, the supreme being, Shri Hari takes the form of a Man-Lion to kill Harnakash, who is the respresentation of Ahankar, and liberates his devotee Prahlaad, who surrenders his self to him.

 

Ahankar is very subtle and it cannot be fought with gross things like weaponry.

ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਕਰਿ ਸਰੀਰੁ ਕਟਾਵੈ ॥ ਤਉ ਭੀ ਹਉਮੈ ਮੈਲੁ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥

This sakhi of Bhagat Prahlaad and Ustad Nar Singh ji Narayan teaches us that none of the gross-level tactics will work with ahankar.

But notice that Shri Hari is on a battlefield, employing gross-level tactics. He transforms in to a monster and kills Harnakash. On a gross level he is doing one thing. One a subtle level he is doing another.

People often understand the gross dimension (they know he is fighting a dude) but do not understand that which is subtle (the fight with ahankar). This is why I emphasize that Harnakash here is referring to Ahankar.

The boon Harnakash got, was to not be killed by gross level things, this is the same boon that our Ahankar has. Ahankar cannot be killed by any gross-level tactic. A tornado cannot kill ahankar. A knife cannot kill ahankar.

 

Why do I say that we start at gross level things?

You can feel the hardness of the keyboard. You can drink water. You can sense your breath. You can think thoughts. (in decreasing level of grossness)

 

But can you totally separate yourself from the hardness, the breath, the water, the thoughts?

Can you for a moment, be completely distinct from the ultimately gross-level world? Can you for a moment be completely subtle as to be in the charan kamal of Shri Hari?

[amardeep]

6 hours ago, Jatro said:

Sure brother, i'm attaching the screenshots. My personal opinion on 'pavan guru' is that the Guru wanted to attack personhood (the feeling that we are identical with our bodies, or that we ARE our bodies) which creates selfishness, cowardice and egotistical behaviour, so the Guru always emphasized on distinct parts which make up a person. So we have

ਦੇਹੀ ਮਾਟੀ ਬੋਲੈ ਪਉਣੁ ॥

The body is dust; the wind speaks through it.

ਬੁਝੁ ਰੇ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਮੂਆ ਹੈ ਕਉਣੁ ॥

Understand, O wise one, who has died.

 

 

As we all know voice of human beings is generated through the flow of air from the lungs to the larynx. So essentially it's the air that is speaking. So Pavan is Guru because it is only through Pavan that the Gurshabad is emerging.

Its cool to have you here on the forum. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us and welcome to the forum :)