Guru Gobind Singh and Rai Singh (From Chaupa Singh Rehatnama)

[dalsingh101]

Amardeep (now forum admin), brought this text to our attention a few years ago (nice one bro!), and I've been looking at it recently. It's a very interesting extract from the Chaupa Singh Singh rehatnama as translated and published by Hew McLeod. 

If it is an accurate account, it suggests that Guru ji didn't expect all Sikhs to fight in war, deeming some unsuitable. I've not compared the translation to the original Panjabi text as given in McLeod's book yet. I'm posting both for people's inspection. 

I love reading, but unfortunately I just can't do it for prolonged periods in electronic form (ebooks, kindle, ipads etc.), and can't afford to print out the whole thing either hence I haven't read the book fully yet.

Translation: 

 

Quote

 

Once in S. 1759 (1702 A.C) [there occured the following incident]. The annual gathering to celebrate Baisakhi had been held and the naqib had been instructed to announce that everyone should go home. The naqib announced in a loud voice that the Supreme Master had instructed all to return to their homes. Hearing the announcement all who were assembled there duly dispersed. All departed except for a Khatri called Rai Singh. The naqib reported [to Guru Gobind Singh] that the gathering had dispersed but that one participant, Rai Singh, still remained. 

"If you want to be a faithful Sikh [obey my command and] go to your home,' [the Guru] said to him.

"My Lord," he answered, "I have remained here because I have abandoned my home. How can I be a faithful Sikh in my home when I have no home?"

"Only at home can you be a faithful Sikh, not here," said [the Guru. "This is no place for you at present.] You are a literate person, one who knows Persian, whereas here our business has to be war. Because of the designs of [evil] people I must bring about a time of tumult (raula), for only thus can our ends be attained. [In such circumstances you will be a hindrance.] When you witness the turmoil you will think up all sorts of suggestions concerning the way this should be done and that should not be done. You will say, "The Master has made a mistake."

"[Instead of flinging yourself in combat] you will sit and listen to what others say. You will think, you will observe and you will make calculations. But we shall be in the midst of tumult and when the panth is plunged into tumult it has to fight! If all is calm [my] Sikhs will stay at home and there fall prey to excessive affection for family and possessions. But now, in the coming tumult, there will be no such distractions." And so [the Guru] sent [Rai Singh] home.  

 

Page 191 - internal book numbering

 

 

The full book is here: https://www.scribd.com/doc/251660050/The-Chaupa-Singh-Rahit-Nama-Translation-by-Hew-McLeod

 

[amardeep]

Thanks for bringing this up. What do people here think about the story, its morale etc?

[dalsingh101]

24 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Thanks for bringing this up. What do people here think about the story, its morale etc?

I think it speaks of certain people being unsuitable for violent conflicts (or raula as dasmesh pita puts it according to the text). It points at Guru ji's military strategy. It makes sense that he didn't put people unsuitable for certain roles in certain positions - it's commonsense actually.   It also shows how firm yet tactful Guru ji was - he sends Rai Singh home without calling him a weakling. He says some Sikhs will follow their Sikhi at home, and some in war.  

I've always associated Amritdharis with an explicit warrior element in the quom, so it was surprising to see Guru ji send Rai Singh home  (I presume Rai Singh took amrit from the name). 

Amardeep, I think Guru ji did that with Bhai Nand Lal too if I'm not mistaken? Making him remove a kirpaan he donned? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

The text also implicitly outlines some characteristics required of warriors i.e. not over-analysing things and questioning and throwing themselves into the fray when it mattered. In terms of family life, it suggests Guru ji wasn't too keen on excessive attachments to your children and material wealth (ਧੀਆ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾ ਮਾਲ ਧਨ ਦਾ ਮੋਹੁ) and felt these things were incompatible with the struggle that that they foresaw. And we all know he firmly practiced what he preached in this department. 

 

[amardeep]

3 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think it speaks of certain people being unsuitable for violent conflicts (or raula as dasmesh pita puts it according to the text). It points at Guru ji's military strategy. It makes sense that he didn't put people unsuitable for certain roles in certain positions - it's commonsense actually.   It also shows how firm yet tactful Guru ji was - he sends Rai Singh home without calling him a weakling. He says some Sikhs will follow their Sikhi at home, and some in war.  

I've always associated Amritdharis with an explicit warrior element in the quom, so it was surprising to see Guru ji send Rai Singh home  (I presume Rai Singh took amrit from the name). 

Amardeep, I think Guru ji did that with Bhai Nand Lal too if I'm not mistaken? Making him remove a kirpaan he donned? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

The text also implicitly outlines some characteristics required of warriors i.e. not over-analysing things and questioning and throwing themselves into the fray when it mattered. In terms of family life, it suggests Guru ji wasn't too keen on excessive attachments to your children and material wealth (ਧੀਆ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾ ਮਾਲ ਧਨ ਦਾ ਮੋਹੁ) and felt these things were incompatible with the struggle that that they foresaw. 

 

Many modern historians have given that account of Bhai Nand Lal yes, amongst these Pyara Singh Padam and Gurmukh Singh (see below). Tsingh here on the forum once provided a text from an old sewa panthi book that showed how Bhai Ghaneya was asked to remove his sword and spend his time instead on doing sewa. Its here on the forum somewhere.

 

[dalsingh101]

5 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Many modern historians have given that account of Bhai Nand Lal yes, amongst these Pyara Singh Padam and Gurmukh Singh (see below). Tsingh here on the forum once provided a text from an old sewa panthi book that showed how Bhai Ghaneya was asked to remove his sword and spend his time instead on doing sewa. Its here on the forum somewhere.

 

Thanks for sharing.

You know I could swear that you mentioned something about a few of the writers of dasmesh darbar becoming shaheed in battle in that essay you wrote a while ago. Am I recalling rightly? 

 

Also, I wonder if the Bhai Nand Lal story has an old provenance or is a modern construct? 

[amardeep]

18 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think it speaks of certain people being unsuitable for violent conflicts (or raula as dasmesh pita puts it according to the text). It points at Guru ji's military strategy. It makes sense that he didn't put people unsuitable for certain roles in certain positions - it's commonsense actually.   It also shows how firm yet tactful Guru ji was - he sends Rai Singh home without calling him a weakling. He says some Sikhs will follow their Sikhi at home, and some in war.  

I've always associated Amritdharis with an explicit warrior element in the quom, so it was surprising to see Guru ji send Rai Singh home  (I presume Rai Singh took amrit from the name). 

Amardeep, I think Guru ji did that with Bhai Nand Lal too if I'm not mistaken? Making him remove a kirpaan he donned? Correct me if I'm wrong please.

The text also implicitly outlines some characteristics required of warriors i.e. not over-analysing things and questioning and throwing themselves into the fray when it mattered. In terms of family life, it suggests Guru ji wasn't too keen on excessive attachments to your children and material wealth (ਧੀਆ ਪੁਤ੍ਰਾ ਮਾਲ ਧਨ ਦਾ ਮੋਹੁ) and felt these things were incompatible with the struggle that that they foresaw. 

 

I remember the first time i read this account 8-9 years ago I found it awfully strange that the Guru would dismiss the use of thinking, observing and calculating. I mean, - isn't it better to have a firm strategy when conducting war?

Now, 8-9 years after, having gotten older and seen more of the world, i've seen how many "outsiders" who've spend loads of time studying books and sitting behind a desk studying people and social problems at a distance are absolutely clueless about real problems of the world. Yet these same people are used to make recomendations for politicians and people of power....They sit there and analyze and give reports (to politicians etc) who on the basis of these "never seen the real world" reports go on and conduct absolutely terrible political strategies in areas of social problems, foreign policy etc.... I realize now that the above sakhi is absolutely correct, - there are some things you can't learn from just reading books afar, - you need to be in it to know about it. If you aint in it,- stop commenting about it.... Thats why the Guru told Bhai Rai Singh to go home and let the warriors do their business...

Edited March 19, 2016 by amardeep

[amardeep]

4 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

Thanks for sharing.

You know I could swear that you mentioned something about a few of the writers of dasmesh darbar becoming shaheed in battle in that essay you wrote a while ago. Am I recalling rightly? 

 

Also, I wonder if the Bhai Nand Lal story has an old provenance or is a modern construct? 

According to Pyara Singh Padam (who quotes the bhatt vahis) many of the kavis were killed in the battle of chamkaur.

I have been looking for older sources of the Bhai Nand Lal incident but have'nt been able to find it so far :/

[dalsingh101]

8 minutes ago, amardeep said:

I remember the first time i read this account 8-9 years ago I found it awfully strange that the Guru would dismiss the use of thinking, observing and calculating. I mean, - isn't it better to have a firm strategy when conducting war?

Now, 8-9 years after, having gotten older and seen more of the world, i've seen how many "outsiders" who've spend loads of time studying books and sitting behind a desk studying people and social problems at a distance are absolutely clueless about real problems of the world. Yet these same people are used to make recomendations for politicians and people of power....They sit there and analyze and give reports (to politicians etc) who on the basis of these "never seen the real world" reports go on and conduct absolutely terrible political strategies in areas of social problems, foreign policy etc.... I realize now that the above sakhi is absolutely correct, - there are some things you can't learn from just reading books afar, - you need to be in it to know about it. If you aint in it,- stop commenting about it.... Thats why the Guru told him to go home and let the warriors do their business...

So true brother.

It's like all the sh*t with the growth of Islamist fundamentalism in the UK that's caught these white mfs out. If you was at ground level and rubbed shoulders with everyday people, and saw how society operated, you would have seen this ish coming from ten miles off. 

 

But maybe they knew, and actually wanted this? 

[dalsingh101]

1 hour ago, amardeep said:

 

Quote

According to Pyara Singh Padam (who quotes the bhatt vahis) many of the kavis were killed in the battle of chamkaur.

These two authors contradict each other. 

[amardeep]

Yes and no. It might be so that the kavis were killed as civilians caught in battle. I can't remember if Pyara Singh Padam/Bhatt Vahis actually state they were fighting in the war.

 

[dalsingh101]

One scribe called Bhai Hardas, who seemed quite prominent back then, doesn't seem to have much information available about him today? 

I think we should remember that there were 'kavis' who created and translated works  and (I believe) even more 'scribes', who would make copies of stuff or write out dictation. Bhai Hardas was probably a scribe.

[amardeep]

11 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said:

One scribe called Bhai Hardas, who seemed quite prominent back then doesn't seem to have much information available about him today? 

I think we should remember that there were 'kavis' who created and translated works  and (I believe) even more 'scribes', who would make copies of stuff or write out dictation. Bhai Hardas was probably a scribe.

Very prominent indeed. He wrote a Guru Granth Sahib saroop in extra ordinary beautiful calligraphy in 1682. It was destroyed in 1984 under Operation Blue star. He is also one of the 5 scribes of the Anandpuri Dasam Granth saroop of 1698. Pyara Singh Padam also attributes the Prem Ambodh Granth to his authorship. This is disputed amongst other scholars who believe someone else wrote it.

Baba Hardas was the grand father of Jassa Singh Ramghariya

[amardeep]

According to Gurbilas Patshahi 10 (Sukha Singh) there were 36 scribes in the Guru darbaar.

[dalsingh101]

Quote

 

Bhai Hardas (Haridas) was a resident of Sur Singh, a large village in the Lahore district (now Taran Taran); he became a close confidant of Guru Gobind Singh. He prepared an early recension of Guru Granth Sahib. This manuscript was dated 1682 AD and completed at Damdama at Anandpur Sahib. This was one of the earliest manuscripts which also contained the saloks of Guru Tegh Bahadur. It was kept at Sikh Reference Library, Manuscript No. 511, with the description, Sri Guru Gobind Singh ji de Likhari Bhai Hardas vali birh.

This manuscript was considered special as it contained the saloks of Guru Tegh Bahadur inserted into the birh not long after Gobind Singh became Guru. The names of the nine Gurus were recorded in the colophon as well the manuscript bearing a  Nishan of Guru Gobind Singh.  It was destroyed in Operation Blue Star in 1984.

Whilst the name of Bhai Mani Singh and Baba Deep Singh is well known in the preparation of Sikh scriptures the name of Bhai Hardas is not. He was a Hazuri Likhari meaning he was official scribe of the Durbar of the Tenth Guru. Bhai Hardas was involved in the preparation of other Guru Granth manuscripts and pothis.

This also included scribing Dasam Patshah Ka Granth (Sri Dasam Granth Sahib). He was one several likharis who wrote the first recension of the Granth known as the Anandpuri bir. His name appears within this early manuscript.

Interestingly he also fought in the battles with Guru Gobind Singh and Baba Banda Singh Bahadur. He was martyred in the battle of Bajwara (Hoshiarpur) in 1715 AD.

 

http://www.sikhscholar.co.uk/2012/05/ramgharia-dynasty-bhai-hardas-and-jassa.html

[paapiman]

9 minutes ago, amardeep said:

Baba Hardas was the grand father of Jassa Singh Ramghariya

Is he the one, who used to write about Sri Satguru jee(Tenth Master)'s daily activities?

Bhul chuk maaf

[Jatro]

On 19/03/2016 at 10:53 PM, amardeep said:

Thanks for bringing this up. What do people here think about the story, its morale etc?

Bhaji, the bit about 'raula' is very striking, this is similar to how Rattan Singh Bhangu describes the activities of the Khalsa after its formation. He uses words like 'dunga' (riot). He describes how Mughal administration had been made impossible by the activities of the Khalsa. When i first heard this i thought that Bhangu was exaggerating for bir ras, but i think this extract from Chaupa Singh makes it clear that there was a method to all of this.

[chatanga1]

What an very interesting topic. Some good knowledge of forgotten history being shared.

[samurai]

I read this last night and it got me thinking if the likes of rai singh did stay around the fauj we would all be quarter backs now... 

It made me think of the current grooming situation in uk.. in 90's shere punjab stressed to the committee members of the seriousness of, at the time conversion now grooming. They had the rai sort of attitude of no, we are educated etc now and any problem we will go via the authorities, well look at whats happened. In 90's it was more about picking up apneah from day timers/uni's so predomiantly 16/18+ now the sulleh have targeted 11+ and in some cases younger.. Had those so called sikh leaders listened to the sp, im pretty sure none of this would be happening in our community and if so it would be the odd here and there (not saying sikh girls would not go with sulleh just not in the manner of manipulation/deciet)...

Maharaj knew it was time for physical battles and the 'turn the other cheek' sikhs was not gonna be any good to the cause, as they will always find a way not to confront in physical battle..

[dalsingh101]

Quote

Maharaj knew it was time for physical battles and the 'turn the other cheek' sikhs was not gonna be any good to the cause, as they will always find a way not to confront in physical battle..

Forget physical confrontation, these types of apnay haven't even got the mental courage/strength to face up to serious issues we face lest it put them in jeopardy or makes them feel uneasy. Straight cowards on all fronts. Meanwhile the people targeting us just get emboldened by these people's inaction and excuses to go into overdrive with their ish. 

So many of our people played down grooming and conversions over the years and castigated any apnay that tried to highlight and deal with the issue as being trouble makers, or exaggerating. But now  (like Jagraj said in the video you posted), they've gone all quiet when it becomes undeniable to the point that hordes of tonday get plastered all over the media when they get caught doing it to goreean and evidence of apneean being abused gets thrown in their face via mainstream media. These pricks don't trust their own but will accept it is happening when they hear it from a paedophile infested organisation like the BBC......

Now you don't hear these b@stards saying sh1t. They should feel ashamed of themselves for the damage they've caused and how they've colluded in the disrespect towards our community with their stupidity. 

The other (serious) issue is when certain apnay go to the other extreme and try and make this into some big battle between Sikhs and ALL Muslims. I mean the grooming thing was being done mainly by a section of pak society - not all sullay in general. But instead of simply dealing with these people, these plums try and twist things into some retarded battle against every last damn sullah.