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MENSTRUATION = FEMININE, GODDESS

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Question - If a woman is asking for EQUAL treatment and opportunity, how does that equal hatred of men?

Answer - It does not. However in many cases, it's the way they pursue it that is the problem. They believe ludicrous things like - men oppress women - when the reality is that men and women are in this world together as a team.

These people justify their beliefs by ignoring evidence of biological and psychological realities.

Remember the hormones that change our biology and create our genitals - penis and vagina - also go into our brain and change how our brain works. These hormones wire each gender differently, according to evolutionary pressures imposed by natural selection, group selection and sexual selection.

On a side note - I think this is why you can have a person stuck in the body of the opposite sex, where the brain did not change along with the genitals. This gives birth to a transsexual community.

They ignore this overwhelming evidence and believe men and women are exactly the same aside form their genitals, which feeds into their above belief that "men oppress women". They think - Why do women have different roles if they are just like men? It must be oppression!

This is not the case. Such beliefs can be countered easily by seeing the gender differences in behaviour, interests, necessity, etc.

Even though both genders are the same soul, the physical world imposes physical limitations. The gender roles are solutions to those limitations. Some of the roles are different as per society however there are some fundamental roles that are found in each society.

There are also certain gender roles that lead to the most well-being for men and women, for husbands and wives.

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5 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Question - If a woman is asking for EQUAL treatment and opportunity, how does that equal hatred of men?

Answer - It does not. However in many cases, it's the way they pursue it that is the problem. They believe ludicrous things like - men oppress women - when the reality is that men and women are in this world together as a team.

These people justify their beliefs by ignoring evidence of biological and psychological realities.

Remember the hormones that change our biology and create our genitals - penis and vagina - also go into our brain and change how our brain works. These hormones wire each gender differently, according to evolutionary pressures imposed by natural selection, group selection and sexual selection.

On a side note - I think this is why you can have a person stuck in the body of the opposite sex, where the brain did not change along with the genitals. This gives birth to a transsexual community.

They ignore this overwhelming evidence and believe men and women are exactly the same aside form their genitals, which feeds into their above belief that "men oppress women". They think - Why do women have different roles if they are just like men? It must be oppression!

This is not the case. Such beliefs can be countered easily by seeing the gender differences in behaviour, interests, necessity, etc.

Even though both genders are the same soul, the physical world imposes physical limitations. The gender roles are solutions to those limitations. Some of the roles are different as per society however there are some fundamental roles that are found in each society.

There are also certain gender roles that lead to the most well-being for men and women, for husbands and wives.

Obedience however is not one of them. Neither spouse should have to give up their will their personality and opinions so the other can have their way all the time.  And yes over history men have been the ones who have imposed many restrictions on women.... Because they could. You are saying that men placing limitations on women is somehow not oppression? How would you like it if you were being told your place is in the kitchen serving your wife (never mind any fulfilling life outside the home) and your role in religion is to remain passive and listen while all the women do all the prominent roles. Oh but you can cook of course since that's in a kitchen. It's easy to say roles are fair when your gender is being given the better 'role' which is more privileged. you would not be saying its such an equal team if you were being told you have to play the less privileged role. 

Seva during menstruation (not just in Sikhi) religious function while menstruating has been seen as dirty by men in all major religions leading to the implication that women are cursed, women are impure etc. And unfit for performing religious duties. In the extreme menstrual taboos have kept women away from families during that time, hidden away in menstrual houses or rooms, believing that everything they touch is impure including food etc. This has absolutely nothing to do with wellbeing for women! 

btw my brain works much more like what you would say men's brains do. (I just say it's a human brain) so to pigeonhole me into the submissive role doing menial domestic work would kill me. Or I'd probably kill myself. I'd feel suffocated and controlled if I was expected to obey while he got to just control me. Luckily we both believe in equality. He doesn't want to ever stomp me into submission. I don't hate men I have an awesome one as my husband who I happen to love very much!!! 

You are putting too much emphasis on telling people what roles they are to play instead of just letting them play whatever role they want. There is so much diversity in humans and our brains that you can't paint everyone the same. While some women like doing dishes and cooking and cleaning that's not what fulfills me. However it does fulfill some men!! I drive a motorbike, started to get my pilots license, joined the navy, became a submariner, loved fire fighting training, I am bit of an adrenaline junky. And I  am good at my job. I'd go crazy of boredom as a housewife. (Which sounds too much like housecat to me). The only roles should be the roles we choose. And I know you keep hinting at roles as in male controls and woman is controlled (ie must obey). Since you were so keen on that before. Let me say one last thing on this: if men want to lead then lead by example. If you want a submissive wife then lay down your own selfish motives and ask her what SHE wants and then do it her way. You want to watch the game and she wants to go out? Turn the damn game off. That's taking the lead, not barking orders or expecting to be served. Try serving her!!! It's a team right? You can join team dinner and dishes right along with her! Or she cooks dinner, then taps you in to do the dishes like a relay team! How about team diaper changes?? And also decisions can easily be made as a team in marriage you know. One person doesn't always have to have last day. That's not a team actually. That's a dictatorship. 

Anyway different topic... 

.... our Gurus recognized that menstrual taboos marked Hindu women as unclean and impure and Gurbani speaks against using menstruation to say someone is impure or unclean. Gurbani has already established that periods don't mean someone should experience limitations. 

However I like Jaspers idea! If groups want to limit women then also place the same limitation on men. Several days each month men must refrain also from seva of SGGSJ symbolically. Then it's fair. Then nobody can say women are deficient in seva because of their periods because the men are also barred for several days a month every month. 

But anyway Akal Takht recognizes no such limitation and women should not be forced to follow any such limitation. Just use common sense with protection. 

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On 30/03/2016 at 3:26 AM, JasperS said:

I was speaking with someone on this topic recently, and we came up with a solution that would be equitable.  If sampradas insist on restricting Singhnis from seva of guru granth sahib ji for several days a month, then a mandatory restriction should also be placed on all Singhs for several days each month as well (symbolically). They can take their days at any time, but for those days they can not do seva of SGGSJ out of respect for women and the days must be consecutive. This would include ALL males in younger age bracket as you want to impose this restriction on all females of childbearing years. That would create fairness. Then both males and females both would be restricted for several days each month. If you can't stand the thought of that idea (or feel like it is discrimination) then please leave the women alone, you have no right to talk. They know how to take care of their hygiene issues especially in modern times and are no more "dirty" than you are. 

oh dear, where to begin?

1. what sampardra are you talking about?  i think i have asked you before.  can you name them?

2. teven hen why should any samprada kneel to your warped sense of morality?  anymore than you want to kneel to their customs? 

maybe you can start your own samprada, you can call it "sycophantic appeasement self righteous morality crusade" samprada.  might be a big hit!

3. your logic is "if we can't do something, no one else should be allowed to either".  hm yes, very noble. 

4.So what about if a woman get pregnant and gives birth?  should everyone be forced to take the same time off as she does for giving birth, recouperting, maternity leave?

5. what about women who don't have periods due to age, medical reasons, medication, pregnancy, etc what if they don't want to follow this?  are you going to enforce it on them?  sounds like facism.

6. Cdn Sikh Girl, 'the menstruation crusder' has admitted that she has been suppressing her own periods for many years with medication, for work purposes.  seriously the hyprocrisy here is astounding.

 

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On 30/03/2016 at 1:36 PM, CdnSikhGirl said:

 You are saying that men placing limitations on women is somehow not oppression? How would you like it if you were being told your place is in the kitchen serving your wife (never mind any fulfilling life outside the home) and your role in religion is to remain passive and listen while all the women do all the prominent roles. Oh but you can cook of course since that's in a kitchen. It's easy to say roles are fair when your gender is being given the better 'role' which is more privileged. you would not be saying its such an equal team if you were being told you have to play the less privileged role. 

knee jerk reaction to claim it is gender roles.  firstly, where is this  famed samprada?  secondly, it more like decorum than a rule. thirdly, the idea that one role is more 'priveleged' than another is your own thinking.  fourthly, its a not a gender thing, logically, e.g.  a women with no mensturation (e.g. menopause) would not have this problem.  

basically you are just angry due to your own perferences.  you personally hate cooking etc but no one is telling you to specially do that seva either or that 'oly place is in the kitchen' , under any circumstances. 

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1 hour ago, Guest guest said:

knee jerk reaction to claim it is gender roles.  firstly, where is this  famed samprada?  secondly, it more like decorum than a rule. thirdly, the idea that one role is more 'priveleged' than another is your own thinking.  fourthly, its a not a gender thing, logically, e.g.  a women with no mensturation (e.g. menopause) would not have this problem.  

basically you are just angry due to your own perferences.  you personally hate cooking etc but no one is telling you to specially do that seva either or that 'oly place is in the kitchen' , under any circumstances. 

What I am saying is that a SInghni who wants to follow her Guru instruction to do seva EVERY DAY should not be told she can't because she is menstruating.  It gives feeling of you aren't good enough you are too dirty to do seva of our Guru.  This is wrong thinking.  It was condemned in Gurbani.  Clean are not those who sit down after merely washing their bodies. Only those are clean are those in whose mind the Lord abides. Anyway, as I said there is a product that can make it like women are not even on their periods. It's worn internally, for up to 12 hours, and completely keeps anything inside.  There is no chance of leaking or smells (since you are worried about smell so much. By the way many of the old Singhs sitting on tabiya smell like body odour and nobody says anything. This is even after ishnan! Anyway after putting this device, there is no chance of anything being dirty or smelling because it literally stops the cycle (well from the outside anyway).  Nobody would ever know she was on her period, even if she was naked! I am sure you will agree, that proper hygiene that can ensure this level of protection should not affect someone doing seva.  It's in effect no different than any human having feces in their bowels (which is constantly). Or urine in their bladder. Since its still inside the body. It works the same way allowing the woman to empty it when she wants just like bowels or bladder. 

Anyway yes I stopped my cycles nearly my whole adult life. Not for seva purposes. But just for convenience since I didn't have a lot of space to bring things to sea and since I was not planning on a child and was not married why bother even going through it? Its only needed for procreation. But I would not feel bad doing seva on a period either.  I would just use a menstrual cup. As I explained above it pretty much is like stopping your period since it keeps it fully internal. 

Anyway I think he meant Damdami Taksal as they have it written in their rehet maryada that women should not do seva while on their period. However the wording is should. That doesn't mean the same as can not.  

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hi i am the guest who wrote the previous reply.  this reply you gave is a lot better and reasoned out nicely.  i don't essentially disagree with what you have written there.

since i am not a woman, my knowledge is limited here.  

on a side note i read on wikipedia that menstrual cup does not carry risk of toxic shock syndrome, i do not know if that is true but if it is that perhaps make its better than tampon etc.

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2 hours ago, Guest guest said:

hi i am the guest who wrote the previous reply.  this reply you gave is a lot better and reasoned out nicely.  i don't essentially disagree with what you have written there.

since i am not a woman, my knowledge is limited here.  

on a side note i read on wikipedia that menstrual cup does not carry risk of toxic shock syndrome, i do not know if that is true but if it is that perhaps make its better than tampon etc.

Yes it does not carry any risk because it's medical grade silicone. Risk for TSS is because blood is soaked in cotton and then sits there. Blood in a cup remains in same state as it is in the uterus and does not change its composition till it meets air. 

 Can you imagine many girls in India can't afford monthly hygiene products (maybe this is why the prohibition of seva because they can't deal with it properly?) anyway one cup costs about 1.00 to make or less. Every woman in India could have one and they are reusable and last years and keep them clean. The only thing they have to get past is the idea of putting something inside and some see that as losing virginity which is bogus. 

 

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@JasperS  why have you sent me an unsolicited PM ? What do you have to say to me that you can say over the forum in public? I have not read it, and request that you delete it and do not harass me again like this. I hope that you will be able to admit that you sent me a PM.

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^^ Exactly.

But that's why some of these Gurdwaras don't allow women to do seva of SGGSJ at all, just to be sure that none are doing it while on their period. Easy way for them to prevent it is to just disallow women to do that seva at all.  This includes akhand paaths, taking hukamnama, etc.

But you are correct. If a Singh can not detect if a woman is on her period or not, then what does it matter? And why do these Singhs even care so much?

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To be honest, this whole menstrual debate never really exist in real life and still dont in india and here, it started online by bunch of bored punk ass lazy kids from akj and taksal who thrives on controversies on silly stuff.

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1 hour ago, funny said:

It must be the husbands of the married menstruating women that leak out this information to the other Singhs in the gurudvaras.  Would these objectionable Singhs object to a female menstruating doctor from administering a CPR to them if their life depended on it? Would they ask a woman doctor if she is on or off before she administers a life saving treatment to them? For most doctors saving lives and making sick well is the highest form of Seva any human being can perform.  Will they have any reservations in such circumstances?  I highly doubt it.  What if a Singh needed a surgery and the surgeon was a menstruating female? All I can say is, that they are suffering from a mental affliction which can only be treated in the looney bins of the world and not in the Sikh gurdvaras.  Sikh gurdvaras are suppose to PREACH Sikh and transform minds and not carry out brain transplants.  Their mentality is grossly sickening. Their bragging is OTT, without any logic, wisdom or spirituality.  Forget about Sikhi, they are NOT Sikhs.

As usual blaming men for all problems , The culture of this misandry is now considered as modern. Men never discuss discuss periods of of their wives or even any female relatives with other men .It is always women that discuss these things. 

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26 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said:

As usual blaming men for all problems , The culture of this misandry is now considered as modern. Men never discuss discuss periods of of their wives or even any female relatives with other men .It is always women that discuss these things. 

What's funny is you are whinging about men taking a bit of the blame for repressing and controlling / dominating women, but you don't care about the literally thousands of years of misogyny which has done MUCH MUCH worse to women than any man will ever have to endure?? 

I agree with Neo this should not even be an issue.  Why are these guys so worried about what's going on in some Singhni's kacheras when she is doing seva? 

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Just now, CdnSikhGirl said:

What's funny is you are whinging about men taking a bit of the blame for repressing and controlling / dominating women, but you don't care about the literally thousands of years of misogyny which has done MUCH MUCH worse to women than any man will ever have to endure?? 

Many of these things were their because of some reasons. I myself have lived in joint family and seen that despite modern things few women were unable to had proper hygiene during periods and there were used to be stains on bedsheets and sometimes even on sofas. so there was always earlier chance of not maintaining proper hygiene

 

My anger was directed at statement that men must be telling other men about their wives having periods when the fact is these things are kept secret in Indian culture and hardly any men discuss that .These type of statements just show that just make men scapegoat of everything

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23 minutes ago, funny said:

You mean to say that menstruating women actually go and tell Mr Singhs at the gurdvaras they are menstruating?

It is women that tell each other about their periods and some of those women may tell to men as many women as it is women particularly elder who consider menstruation as unclean

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20 minutes ago, kdsingh80 said:

Many of these things were their because of some reasons. I myself have lived in joint family and seen that despite modern things few women were unable to had proper hygiene during periods and there were used to be stains on bedsheets and sometimes even on sofas. so there was always earlier chance of not maintaining proper hygiene

But just because some people can't figure out proper hygiene you can't paint entire gender the same, and use it as a reason to say that no menstruating women can at all... vast majority of women maintain proper hygiene.  And yes, from what I have seen (on here and other forums) is it is the Singhs who are kicking up such a stink about it, not the Singhnis. And Hari Singh Randhawa also created controversy about it in Canada. And in Canada I highly doubt that any woman would have an issue maintaining proper hygiene. Neo is right, there should not even be an issue. 

My anger was directed at statement that men must be telling other men about their wives having periods when the fact is these things are kept secret in Indian culture and hardly any men discuss that .These type of statements just show that just make men scapegoat of everything

See above, as I said, I have not seen any Singhni say that women should not do seva during periods. I have only seen Singhs say so. And not matter of factly either.... their statements are usually expression of disgust when they talk about it.  Did you see the recent post with the stone idol covered in blood and Paapiman's statement just after? That "anyone who thinks women can do seva while on their period (which is an utter disgusting act) should have no problem with the above photo." The idol in the photo was covered, literally from head to toe with either fake (or animal) blood. We are talking it looked like the idol took a bath in a tub filled with blood. Like a massacre happened. This is how menstruation is viewed in his and many other Singh's minds... In reality less than one single ounce is lost during the entire period over a three day or so timeframe.  That equates to about a few drops an hour.  See what I am talking about?

 

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But just because some people can't figure out proper hygiene you can't paint entire gender the same, and use it as a reason to say that no menstruating women can at all... vast majority of women maintain proper hygiene.  And yes, from what I have seen (on here and other forums) is it is the Singhs who are kicking up such a stink about it, not the Singhnis. And Hari Singh Randhawa also created controversy about it in Canada. And in Canada I highly doubt that any woman would have an issue maintaining proper hygiene. Neo is right, there should not even be an issue. 

You are living in Canada ,one of the most advanced nation in world , vast majority of sikhs live in India the thirld world developing nation , the type of hygenic material available to them must be much superior and may be these things are available to Indian population recently and then comes cost factor.

As far forums are concerned most of the forums whichever you join barring Tv serials or films are dominated by men so you will definately meet more singhs who oppose it as participation of women in topics is negligible .

Your  sangat is also limited to Canadians which are very liberal in matters like these that's why will hardly found women who oppose it.The does and Don't s during periods mostly come from elder women as in India these things are not even discussed with men

Also women need to decide what they want equality or privilege .Once my cousin called my brother to do her some of college work as she was having period so she is in in discomfort.Recently there was controversy in bollywood as one person just condemned the actress for not standing for national anthem of India and she came down heavily on him that because of her periods she was unable to stand up.Now if women themselves give this perception that they can't even stand up in periods then of course men will get confused that whether they are fully capable of doing alll things or not

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See above, as I said, I have not seen any Singhni say that women should not do seva during periods. I have only seen Singhs say so. And not matter of factly either.... their statements are usually expression of disgust when they talk about it.  Did you see the recent post with the stone idol covered in blood and Paapiman's statement just after? That "anyone who thinks women can do seva while on their period (which is an utter disgusting act) should have no problem with the above photo." The idol in the photo was covered, literally from head to toe with either fake (or animal) blood. We are talking it looked like the idol took a bath in a tub filled with blood. Like a massacre happened. This is how menstruation is viewed in his and many other Singh's minds... In reality less than one single ounce is lost during the entire period over a three day or so timeframe.  That equates to about a few drops an hour.  See what I am talking about?

I think several people here have told you that what paapiman think its his own opinion and hardly reflect what majority of singhs or men think

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20 hours ago, funny said:

How would the Singhs know if a woman is menstruating?  Do the Singhs have a special device that can tell them which female within the 4 walls of a Gurudvara is on her menstrual period? The Singhs must be very highly developed souls to know exactly which woman is on and which one isn't.

 

seriously what a stupid question.

they dont go around policing people.  they expect people to honestly adhere to the rules themselves.

same way they do not know if someone been taking drugs of a few chugs of alcohol before visiting gudwara, or stopped off at the butchers before coming there.

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@kdsingh80  any girl who says they can't stand up during a period is lying. It's possible like anything else to have a medical issue and can cause painful periods but this is a medical issue and not normal. And in that case they should see a doctor, not use it as excuse to not stand up. If it was that bad they should have been in hospital, not at an event where they couldn't even stand. Seriously.... And 99.9999999999% of women do not do that. 

Guest there should be no rule at all. Let women themselves decide whether they think their hygiene is adequate. But there should not be a blanket statement that none on their period can, or else you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Discriminating all for what maybe a tiny few might do. 

And the elder women thing... Someone should tell them about modern hygiene products LOL it's not 1930 anymore!

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I think the point of view that should be taken is, not whether or not a woman is capable /able etc. to do sewage during monthly cycle, but rather whether Guru Sahib Ji's satkaar is maintained doing sewa in this way. This is by no means a black and white issue, as on one hand you have modern day thinking for doing sewa (modern / better hygiene products), and on the other hand you have the Singhnis of the old holding on to and maintaining the tradition of not doing sewa during monthly cycle. 

However, this should not become an issue of whether or not women should do hazoori sewa at all , that's just nuts.

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21 hours ago, N30 S!NGH said:

To be honest, this whole menstrual debate never really exist in real life and still dont in india and here, it started online by bunch of bored punk ass lazy kids from akj and taksal who thrives on controversies on silly stuff.

It never existed because the women who did do sewa were aware of Maryada involved. Nowadays any Tammy, Debbie and Harriet think they have the right to change to anything they want in Sikhi because they want their feminism to be in control of everything. We have seen how deluded feminists are already talking of being able to produce children without men in addition to their "men have oppressed women since Adam" propaganda.

 

19 hours ago, kdsingh80 said:

My anger was directed at statement that men must be telling other men about their wives having periods when the fact is these things are kept secret in Indian culture and hardly any men discuss that .These type of statements just show that just make men scapegoat of everything

 

Don't worry. It's that white saviour mentality that make these people think that only they have the answers.

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39 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

@kdsingh80  any girl who says they can't stand up during a period is lying. It's possible like anything else to have a medical issue and can cause painful periods but this is a medical issue and not normal. And in that case they should see a doctor, not use it as excuse to not stand up. If it was that bad they should have been in hospital, not at an event where they couldn't even stand. Seriously.... And 99.9999999999% of women do not do that. 

Guest there should be no rule at all. Let women themselves decide whether they think their hygiene is adequate. But there should not be a blanket statement that none on their period can, or else you are throwing out the baby with the bath water. Discriminating all for what maybe a tiny few might do. 

And the elder women thing... Someone should tell them about modern hygiene products LOL it's not 1930 anymore!

Some of us... actually most of us are dying during first day. Why do you think women take drugs to ease the pain. You are just proving guys right when they say women are faking it. Medical issue, diet issue or hormonal issue bottom line is women go through crap during their periods. We can't get all the nutrients from our diet and I don't even wanna get into the crap in our Food.

True, There should be no rules but there are and they will always be there. Main point is to realize that rules are not universal. If one samparda is not allowing women to do seva, fine just find another one. I am 100% sure there is Another one which allows women to do seva AKJ if I remember. Let some people be happy with their belief and you can be happy with your belief. 

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