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16 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

 

She had been kidnapped by a Muslim priest of the court called Qazi Rustam Khan. He was based in Lahore, Pakistan. Qazi Rustam Khan had stolen her from her Hindu parents while she was a child. The Qazi gave her the education of Islam and sent her to Saint Mian Mir for higher schooling.

...........................

Mata Kaulan Jee was imprisoned in the house of the Qazi and forced to do unthinkable things. The Qazi kept Mata Kaulan Jee under the pretense that she was his adopted daughter but the truth was very different and he did not treat her as a daughter at all. She was beaten and tortured very badly and was regularly abused.

Do you think that Hazrat Mian Mir would have said something if he knew that the Qazi was abusing his daughter? Either to the Qazi or Guru Sahib?

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15 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Do you think that Hazrat Mian Mir would have said something if he knew that the Qazi was abusing his daughter? Either to the Qazi or Guru Sahib?

Well, these things could have been either: very common (to normalised levels) back then? Hardly surprising given what we know about harem culture in Islamic society that exists to this day. So it may not have been too shocking. 

 

It could also be that this whole victim thing was made up by later Sikhs to try and get away from the fact that maybe Kaulan made a mistake when younger and got seduced by an older, powerful man (like that doesn't happen....). That's what the text seems to be possibly suggesting. 

 

If the translation is correct it seems to suggest that Kaulan is upset that the stigma of having been associated with a 'turk' and having become a 'turknee' and is lamenting this?

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Kaulan Speech

If this world is spent in the the company of a man, is what way is this harmful?

Ram and Krishan in this world had many sons, Oh Lord listen,

You have fours sons and a daughter, tell me this

Without intercourse a child cannot be born, without intercourse who (dynasty/family)has remained in this world (710)

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3 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

If the translation is correct it seems to suggest that Kaulan is upset that the stigma of having been associated with a 'turk' and having become a 'turknee' and is lamenting this?

Reading on further a little, the story seems to be saying that Kaulan wanted a child, preferably by Guru Ji as his wife. She has concerns that she would be forgotten and leave no issue in the world, and hence Guru Sahib promised that she wouldn't be forgotten in the world as he would have a sarovar dug for her (Kaulsar).

As Guru Sahib is not in agreement with this, Kaulan is asking is it because of her background etc.

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6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

As Guru Sahib is not in agreement with this, Kaulan is asking is it because of her background etc.

Reword this please, I don't understand what you are trying to say?

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From the story so far, Kaulan is saying to Guru Ji, that she doesn't have a son and will leave no sign on tis earth. She (I think) wants Guru Sahib to marry her and have a child with her. Guru Sahib is reluctant to do this. Kaulan is asking Guru Sahib if it's because of her background as a Turknee/Muslim. Further on in the katha Guru Sahib says that he will get a sarovar in her name so she will be remembered in this world.

 

@Jatro Bro have you had a chance to look at what has been added?  If you have and feel it's ok, I will add the next page.

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1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

From the story so far, Kaulan is saying to Guru Ji, that she doesn't have a son and will leave no sign on tis earth. She (I think) wants Guru Sahib to marry her and have a child with her. Guru Sahib is reluctant to do this. Kaulan is asking Guru Sahib if it's because of her background as a Turknee/Muslim. Further on in the katha Guru Sahib says that he will get a sarovar in her name so she will be remembered in this world.

 

@Jatro Bro have you had a chance to look at what has been added?  If you have and feel it's ok, I will add the next page.

So what's this big controversy that had people's kasheray in a twist?

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17 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

From the story so far, Kaulan is saying to Guru Ji, that she doesn't have a son and will leave no sign on tis earth. She (I think) wants Guru Sahib to marry her and have a child with her. Guru Sahib is reluctant to do this. Kaulan is asking Guru Sahib if it's because of her background as a Turknee/Muslim. Further on in the katha Guru Sahib says that he will get a sarovar in her name so she will be remembered in this world.

 

@Jatro Bro have you had a chance to look at what has been added?  If you have and feel it's ok, I will add the next page.

Yes, time for the next page

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17 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

So what's this big controversy that had people's kasheray in a twist?

 

On 25/04/2016 at 5:22 PM, chatanga1 said:

Let the mystery unravel. I think part of the controversy was that Guru Sahib brought Kaulan from her house in the night, secretly on the back of his horse. Detractors's say it's makes it seems like a story from Panjabi romantic follklore.

 

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Good read!

On 2016-05-10 at 11:16 AM, dalsingh101 said:

It could also be that this whole victim thing was made up by later Sikhs to try and get away from the fact that maybe Kaulan made a mistake when younger and got seduced by an older, powerful man (like that doesn't happen....). That's what the text seems to be possibly suggesting. 

Could also be that men tend to demonize men from other groups / tribes.

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What does ਮੈਥਨ mean? 

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On 16/05/2016 at 10:37 PM, dalsingh101 said:

What does ਮੈਥਨ mean? 

Sexual intercourse.

 

@Jatro@IJJSingh Brothers. I'm having a lot of trouble putting the first few of the latest page into some sort of context. I have worked out the words, but can't structure them to make some sense. What are your thoughts on the Chaupai at the top?

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Guru's speech Chaupai

If the world was under the rule of fools, men and women spread the bliss of the name of Hari and Ram

the Pure, Eternal, True being, will show them layered in a coat of colour (love)

If a man is concerned with his own possesions, and in happiness with these

Look upon the world as a dream, the pain of a family can be destroyed by love.(711)

Guru Nanak the pure Primal Spirit started this tradition, listen with concentration

Revealing the mantar from the True Name, suck (consume) this name and the bliss (or desire) of having a son will be gone

Because of this I did not have intercourse, but gave mantar to create the 4 sons

So stay steadfast in your mind, giving up all thoughts of intercourse will bring you happiness.(712)

 

.Any corrections/ideas?

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It's kind of weird. If I'm scanning it right, it seems to be suggesting that all the Guru's had their children by using a mantar, and not via the normal route (sex).  

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Here is my take on the posted sawaiya I will put a comma, where I feel there is a vishram. Gurmukhi is transliterated in italics.

Sri Gurovach || Savaiya ||

je jag moodh, adhin triya nar, ram hari keh, kel machayo|   This stupid/foolish/ignorant world, under influence of woman, saying Ram Hari, play |

suda sada satnand pratam ,tahe kao lep na, rang dikhayo | everlasting sat chit anand parmatma, not meditating upon him, world plays |

vast vichar kare nar je, nij roop anand kiyo sukh payo | If one meditates/contemplates on objective i/e nij roop ( self-contemplation), one gets bliss pleasure |

supne sam jaan sabhi jagko, dukh khaan, triya dekh neho mitayo |  consider this world like a dream/illusion, a mine of suffering, thus seeing a woman eradicate attachment|711|

My commentary: The world is foolish & ignorant because they do not contemplate or meditate upon their blissfull sat chit ananda swaroop instead they are under the influence/spell of womans beauty. If they were to contemplate on their nij-swaroop they would consider this world an illusion & upon seeing a woman would not be attached to her |711|

guru nanak sudh parmatma ji, eho reet kari suniye man layi |  The pure Parmatma Guru Nanaj ji has started this tradition, O mind listen carefully

satnam ko mantra uchar kiyo, teh choos bhaye sut , bhog mitayi | Reciting the SATNAMA  mantra, sucking upon it/ enjoying nectar from it, need for sexual course eradicated

eh karan maithan nahe karo, mam mantra diyo sut bed upayi |  for this reason I do not do sexual intercourse, my mantra has given son/s , bed upayi

tahe ta dhir dharo man mhe, tum maithan bat tajo sukhdayi|  this is why or thus have patience in mind, you leave the pleasurable talk of sexual intercourse |

O! Listen to this attentively!The Pure Guru Nanak Dev Ji have started this tradition. I recite the SATNAMA mantra & meditate upon it to procreate. I do not need  physical intercourse. I have sons through Mantra technology; mention of bed (vedas) might suggest this technology might be mentioned there. Thus, you should eradicate any conversation about having physical course (maithuna).

I wont go word to word for next stanzas ( time constrants) but it suggests that the 10 gurus procreated through Mantra technology & not through physical intercourse. This in line with thinking of great Mahapurush of Sikh Panth,the shiromani being, Baba Nand Singh ji.

 

 

 

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19 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

O! Listen to this attentively!The Pure Guru Nanak Dev Ji have started this tradition. I recite the SATNAMA mantra & meditate upon it to procreate. I do not need  physical intercourse. I have sons through Mantra technology; mention of bed (vedas) might suggest this technology might be mentioned there. Thus, you should eradicate any conversation about having physical course (maithuna).

I wont go word to word for next stanzas ( time constrants) but it suggests that the 10 gurus procreated through Mantra technology & not through physical intercourse. This in line with thinking of great Mahapurush of Sikh Panth,the shiromani being, Baba Nand Singh ji.

It should not come of as a surprise to Sikhs that Sri Satguru jee procreated without any sexual intercourse. Mantar technology is very powerful and can do wonders. In the past, this technology was also by Hindu Rikhis for procreation and many other purposes. There is a sakhi which mentions of Maharikhi Ved Vyas jee bringing back the skeletons of elephants (who were thrown out of Earth's gravitational field) by Bhim jee (one of the Pandavs), using Mantars

Another historical text mentions about the miraculous birth of Sri Satguru jee (Third Master)'s grandson. Baba jee (son of Sri Satguru jee) was able to impregnate his wife using his vision.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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2 hours ago, paapiman said:

Another historical text mentions about the miraculous birth of Sri Satguru jee (Third Master)'s grandson. Baba jee (son of Sri Satguru jee) was able to impregnate his wife using his vision.

The above Sakhi might be mentioned in Sri Mehma Prakash. Gurparsaad, will try to confirm it.

In another sakhi, Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master) creates a baby, takes it out of his shawl and hands it over to his Sikh.

If saints can create and destroy life, then we all can imagine, what Sri Satguru jee (Almighty Waheguru) can do.

Even if Sri Satguru jee had sex with thousands of women, that would be fine too (as he is Nirlayp saroop), but the facts must not be altered.  First Master and Sixth master did not have any physical sexual intercourse, to have children.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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2 hours ago, amardeep said:

The Gurus were grishti householders with everything it implies.

These ideas of using mantars were probably poetic devices used to make the Gurus resemble the Avatars of the Puranas etc.

 

I think it is more to do with the notion that sex is somehow 'impure' and writers finding novel ways to point out that our Gurus were never 'tainted' in this way. 

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4 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Thanks bro. Can you extend your kirpa upon us and do some more of this page please?

The rest of the page is translated below:

Dohra (couplet)

I hear that for [his] ten generations there is no sex with women

Buddha Sahib (Baba Buddha ji) has given this up (sex), and he is greatly fortunate (713)

Kaulan Speaks – Choupaee (four-lined verse)

If Sahib Buddha were to renounce [sex], then he will have no descendants in this world

Who would remember his name, my case will be the same?  How will renouncing sex lead to happiness? (714)

Shri Guru ji Speaks

By meeting Guru Nanak, all the sorrows of Buddha Sahib disappeared

If one were to receive mantar from somebody like Guru Nanak, he will enjoy great happiness of sons (715)

Soratha (type of verse)

Third in line, Bhana was born (Bhai Bhana was Baba Buddha ji’s son.  I am not sure why Bhai Bhana ji would be third in line, by my count, he should be second), and listen more were born [down the generations]

Then I tell you about Sahib Sarwan (Bhai Sarwan was the son of Bhai Bhana ji) he was lal (ruby or favorite son) in the fourth generation (716)

Dohra

Sahib Jhanda, in the fifth generation became world famous (Bhai Jhanda ji was the son of  Bhai Sarwan ji)

Sahib Gurditta , born in the sixth had great powers (Bhai Gurditta ji was the son of Bhai Jhanda ji) (717)

Choupaee

He [Bhai Gurditta] shall accompany the Ninth Guru, and with the Guru will sacrifice his life in Delhi

Sahib Raam Kaur is his [Gurditta’s] son, he will attain great fame (718)

With the Tenth Guru, he will do marvelous things, he [Raam Kaurji] will be immensely holy and people will sing his praises

The Guru will bestow a khitaab (title) on him (Raam Kaurji became Bhai Gurbakhsh Singh ji).  Listen to me Kaulan, he will be given the name by the Guru (719)

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

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