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CdnSikhGirl

How to tell if someone you meet is a Sant or not...

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@Rock

You wanted a new post for fear of going off topic.

Please tell me (and others) by what criteria do we determine if someone we meet on the street is a Sant or not? And how do we think we have any authority to ever make that assumption about someone? 

 

 

 

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18 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

@Rock

You wanted a new post for fear of going off topic.

Please tell me (and others) by what criteria do we determine if someone we meet on the street is a Sant or not? And how do we think we have any authority to ever make that assumption about someone? 

 

 

 

My own two cents:

You would know if someone is sant or not if you are only open to them , if you can be open and receptive towards them then you will notice subtle hints of their awakened spirit/awakened mind- jot saroop,  your doubts might get clear in their company just by their presence, your mind/thoughts might just drop off for few secs/minute and you enjoy your real self-cosmic spirit. There is no easy conceptual answer to this. All i can say, our pure intuition/cognition (not be confused with skeptical mind) will validate if we have met sant/saint or not.

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However Gurbani says only a Brahamgiani can know the state of the Brahamgiani. It also says we can only judge ourselves and not others. We are thinking by human duality thought as well. So when you meet someone, things like charisma etc tend to play a big role on how we label a person. Case in point all of 3HO consider Yogi Bhajan as a sant (some even possibly a Guru) however since stories emerged about his alleged sex scandals, squandering money, lavishing the attention etc I have serious doubts about yogi Bhajan being anything close to a Sant 

I posted a tuk from Gurbani in the other thread telling how people should never be considered a saint by outward deeds. Yet I can think off hand several who were declared a saint by many and it was based on their outer deeds (and charisma). Because how else are they making a judgement?? Nobody knows what is in another's mind, but they can see their actions. 

Personally I do not think any of us are qualified to declare someone else a Sant or not. Possibly someone who HAS reached Saint level themselves... But not the rest. 

Kam1825 Even if you go by a list of qualities mentioned in Gurbani, ultimately you are making an assumption. You are making a choice of whether to call someone a Sant or not when you never really know for sure. Isn't that dangerous?? Shouldn't we be more concerned with our own spirituality than trying to analyze whether or not someone else is a Sant and then worshipping them and bowing to them?? Couldn't we actually be just creating our own idols? Our minds are prone to err are they not?? 

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2 hours ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

@Rock

You wanted a new post for fear of going off topic.

Please tell me (and others) by what criteria do we determine if someone we meet on the street is a Sant or not? And how do we think we have any authority to ever make that assumption about someone? 

 

 

 

Check this youtube channel, they have a over 20 part series explaining 'Who is a Sant' from Gurbani in english.  It will answer all your questions.

 

https://m.youtube.com/user/mysimraninfo

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Above Gursikhs have provided very good responses & links if one is genuine enough to learn & progress

Just to add, if you are spiritually receptive no doubts remain if someone in front of you is a great spiritual being or not. For example, if your third eye is open you can see their bright white aura , sometimes so bright that you cannot handle it & have to request to lower it down. Such instances have happened with Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji rara & few devotees. Also if you have rom rom simran going then your simran will automatically start & you will be in spiritual bliss. After that no doubts will remain.

Even if you are not spiritually receptive you can still know as the above gursikhs have mentioned. You negates their arguments by using the word Charisma. Charisma is temporary. Charisma does not purify your thoughts, nor does it give you a thoughtless silent stillness of mind. Charisma does not give you a taste of bliss. Charisma does not motive to do more Simran or Gurbani Jaap.  Charisma does not answer or solve your hidden or secret thoughts or doubts.

Your aim is to get benefit from service & company of saints if available or if you have enough spiritual credit to do so.

 

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@Rock We have to be VERY careful with that mate, or else we chance labelling someone a sant based on our own liking of that person. Harbhajan Yogi was mentioned above, he managed to get a whole group of people to do all of the above (or think they experienced all the above) by staring at his photo for hours. How much of that was simple delusion? 

Also how do you explain how some might think one person is a sant but another does not get that at all from that person? What if that second group however sees someone else as a sant who group one doesn't agree is? This is the state of the panth today!  Different groups have "their" different sants.  And they often disagree with each other on who is a sant or not. 

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@JasperSI do not know about Harbhajan Yogi nor do I want to discuss a person who is deceased. I am very careful about being guilty of Ninda. Please dont give their examples. Anyone can make allegations these days.

The bottomline is that if you really deserve the company of a true Saint , Guru Ji will make sure you that you recognize it.  You dont have to actively go searching out for someone, once you reach a certain stage & a help of a teacher is needed , a Saint will come in your life.  

And you cannot ignore or imagine some of signs that I have mentioned. These are very real and one of those things that you personally have to experience. I can tell you all about it but you wont get it.  Satkring wanted to know some signs so I did . If she is lucky she will come in touch with someone.

For example, when satkirin heard those bells during she freaked out and did not know what to do. She came here for answers but got none. If there was a Saint or even a Gursikh he could guide her further along a path. Its been a while now she has not heard anything. That is why you need guidance of teachers on this path.

 

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1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

However Gurbani says only a Brahamgiani can know the state of the Brahamgiani. It also says we can only judge ourselves and not others. We are thinking by human duality thought as well. So when you meet someone, things like charisma etc tend to play a big role on how we label a person. Case in point all of 3HO consider Yogi Bhajan as a sant (some even possibly a Guru) however since stories emerged about his alleged sex scandals, squandering money, lavishing the attention etc I have serious doubts about yogi Bhajan being anything close to a Sant

1. Above tuk means - endless play, state or glory of bhramgyani only fellow bhramgyan can truly know but that does not negate existence or effect of bhramgyani around their surronding such  magnetic effect of society of saints which gurbani talks about in various places in gurbani. In other words, its not the people who merely coming across with them, its the drawing magentic emitting force which draw people(neddles) in. 

2. We will not discuss personality in this topic, as it gets too subjective. But nice try cherry picking some what controversial figure of recent times and applying same paint brush on whole lineage of sants (sant khalsa) from various spiritual orders of sikhism

 

Quote

I posted a tuk from Gurbani in the other thread telling how people should never be considered a saint by outward deeds. Yet I can think off hand several who were declared a saint by many and it was based on their outer deeds (and charisma). Because how else are they making a judgement?? Nobody knows what is in another's mind, but they can see their actions. 

Who's doing it? Many who consider a saint do by so by reading life stories, gurmat written in gurbani reiterated by them, direct intutive experience.

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7 hours ago, N30 S!NGH said:

 

2. We will not discuss personality in this topic, as it gets too subjective. But nice try cherry picking some what controversial figure of recent times and applying same paint brush on whole lineage of sants (sant khalsa) from various spiritual orders of sikhism

 

Who's doing it? Many who consider a saint do by so by reading life stories, gurmat written in gurbani reiterated by them, direct intutive experience.

 

Please note I am NOT saying Sants don't exist.  

What I am saying is that NONE of us are qualified to judge someone is a Sant or not.  I could call someone a Sant because they have helped me on my spiritual path and they are in my eyes a hugely spiritual person. You might think they are not. You might call someone a Sant who I don't think is.  And the genuine Sants I don't think look for the attention but remain humble and filled with humility.  I don't think a true Sant is one who sits on a platform handing out blessings with people bowing to them and/or looking for microphone and camera time... obviously a lot of people do.  I think I true Sant would help people along the path without ever claiming to be a Sant and without that person ever knowing they have encountered one. So to me, when it says in Gurbani to seek company of the Saints, I think it means generally be pure in your actions etc so as to attract them to you, but I don't think it's telling us to make judgement calls on others whether you think they are a Sant or not.  A true Sant you might never think they are one, because outwardly they remain humble and do not show it. 

 

 

 

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9 hours ago, Rock said:

Above Gursikhs have provided very good responses & links if one is genuine enough to learn & progress

Just to add, if you are spiritually receptive no doubts remain if someone in front of you is a great spiritual being or not. For example, if your third eye is open you can see their bright white aura , sometimes so bright that you cannot handle it & have to request to lower it down. Such instances have happened with Sant Baba Ishar Singh ji rara & few devotees. Also if you have rom rom simran going then your simran will automatically start & you will be in spiritual bliss. After that no doubts will remain.

 

Waheguru ji

It's nice to see Rock's genuine efforts in order to help answer other's questions. 

I haven't been on here a while because of my own battles with my bhakti and panj chor

 

I'm not posting to poke at you or anything but I just wanted to mention about the couple of spiritual points you mentioned above :)

Firstly, the aura's are not just about seeing bright white. There's a couple of us on here that have been able to experience them and they are not just about what you see!  Also, not everyone on high avastha can pick up the dristi aspect but will be able to "feel" and "sense" them. They shouldn't be confused with just a "visionary" of some sort and the brightness witnessed is never blinding to the eye (as if to make you look away), but you are either able to hold a connection with it or you completely switch off and don't see anything!! ..........(I know it's difficult to explain) .

 

As for Rom Rom, I can explain and answer questions in some detail from my own experiences about this and I also explained how to practice the simran technique that can help to pave the way for spontaneous rom rom to become pargat.. You can see this and some later experiences on the meditation thread below

BTW. I'm unable to freely discuss too much detail about rom rom and/or  some other stuff on the open forum because of some previous plagiarism, but I'm more than happy to share with members on pm.

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17 minutes ago, Lucky said:

 

Firstly, the aura's are not just about seeing bright white. There's a couple of us on here that have been able to experience them and they are not just about what you see!

And they are not all white either!  There are layers of different colours! At least from what I have seen. And I can tell when someone is ill with something serious like cancer.  Also, I can nearly always tell if someone is pregnant (even before showing or if they tell me).

  Also, not everyone on high avastha can pick up the dristi aspect but will be able to "feel" and "sense" them. They shouldn't be confused with just a "visionary" of some sort and the brightness witnessed is never blinding to the eye (as if to make you look away), but you are either able to hold a connection with it or you completely switch off and don't see anything!! ..........(I know it's difficult to explain) .

It's all energy. Some people can 'see' the energy. Others can feel it. For example think of static electricity. Sometimes you can feel it (hair standing on end) sometimes you can feel it, when it jumps from your finger to a metal object like a door handle. Sometimes you can hear it too! But it's all the same energy. 

 

But I don't think there is some bright blinding light as Rock stated.  I think it's more along lines of what Amardeep stated. That its a personal assessment of someone who might have helped you on your spiritual path etc. But it's not an official title etc.  So going by that, anyone who helps others on their spiritual path are all Sants... in that sense then I guess we all can be a Sant to at least someone.

 

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6 minutes ago, Lucky said:

What's the reason for slandering the Yogi ?  Did he claim to be a sant?

Satkiran, you don't have to slander to prove that you are white and at the same time NOT affiliated with 3HO.   You can learn tons of stuff from Yogis talks, lectures and videos. He had plenty of gyan to give but it's up to you if want to go low enough to pick the grains of sugar from the sand or stay in the elephant-mind

 

Its not me who claimed these things lol. I am just quoting the news stories I read.  I am not saying he was or wasn't. I am just illustrating a point that he may or may not have been. And how can we ever tell. He was just an example because many people think he was. And many people think he wasn't. So was he? or was he not? That just illustrated my point on the fact that human judgement errs. Both can't be right.

 

 

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A Sant is Sikh, when that Sikh considers himself and acts as a true servant of God, then he/she is a true sevak, a true sant.

The Sant serves with love and keeps the sang (sangat) of those that want to jap naam and encourage further prem for Naam.

A true sant does not preach for money and this means he/she does not take bhetah or gollock donations either. I have only ever seen one or two sants that leave all the sangat donations at the guru-ghar and don't exit gurdwara premises with heavier pockets!!     WHY? ...because if a sant has duty of serving God and God only, then why would you serve yourself with sangat donations?

 

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1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

 

Please note I am NOT saying Sants don't exist.  

What I am saying is that NONE of us are qualified to judge someone is a Sant or not.  I could call someone a Sant because they have helped me on my spiritual path and they are in my eyes a hugely spiritual person. You might think they are not. You might call someone a Sant who I don't think is.  And the genuine Sants I don't think look for the attention but remain humble and filled with humility.  I don't think a true Sant is one who sits on a platform handing out blessings with people bowing to them and/or looking for microphone and camera time... obviously a lot of people do.  I think I true Sant would help people along the path without ever claiming to be a Sant and without that person ever knowing they have encountered one. So to me, when it says in Gurbani to seek company of the Saints, I think it means generally be pure in your actions etc so as to attract them to you, but I don't think it's telling us to make judgement calls on others whether you think they are a Sant or not.  A true Sant you might never think they are one, because outwardly they remain humble and do not show it. 

 

 

 

As amardeep has said, its subjective matter. So its not black and white. It's driven by individual's direct experience with them and that varies. I dont think you can judge them with one standard barometer of humility.

Whats our definition of humility and what humility actually is may varies. Our conditioned mind box humility certain way but what we need to realize - there are NO patterns, logic, rational sant/bhramgyan follows thats why gurbani keep its open not closed or confined.

When bhramgyan(pure god realized knowledge) dawns on lucky one, it literally consumes the ego conditioned mind/ personality, its literally identity shift there is NO you or me there is only bhramgyan/truth and from the body its only truth/bhramgyan that flows but there are literally no rules, conditioned patterns , logic, rational you can throw on bhramgyan. Truth cannot be defined as soon truth is defined, we have conceptualized it- made it to idea, boxed it, truth cannot be defined, it could only be realized

 It's a change of occupancy, pure real self (Jagad JOT) takes center stage of being/ core being instead of ego and then pure divine direct hakum unfolds by appearing spontaneously in self realized being(sant)  drives them to benefit human kind and that hakums varies sant to sant and thats why there are various task and nature of sants and bhramgyani. 

 

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Okay we have determined a Sant is entirely subjective.  A Sant to me, might not be a Sant to you and vice versa, so it's someone who is special to you who helps YOU in your own spiritual journey. That means every one of us could be a Sant to someone else as long as we help someone else on their path. It's not a title or position.

If it's not a title or position, then why do many treat it as such? To the point of lavishing in people bowing to them etc? Why do their followers go to the point of worshipping their now departed Sant's personal possessions, or even attributing spiritual powers to things like fingernail clippings? Are these behaviours not dangerously treading upon that which Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemned (idolatry)??

The whole point of the other thread was that of idolatry (in reference to Hinduism influence) which is why it led to this discussion.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Okay we have determined a Sant is entirely subjective.  A Sant to me, might not be a Sant to you and vice versa, so it's someone who is special to you who helps YOU in your own spiritual journey. That means every one of us could be a Sant to someone else as long as we help someone else on their path. It's not a title or position.

If it's not a title or position, then why do many treat it as such? To the point of lavishing in people bowing to them etc? Why do their followers go to the point of worshipping their now departed Sant's personal possessions, or even attributing spiritual powers to things like fingernail clippings? Are these behaviours not dangerously treading upon that which Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemned (idolatry)??

The whole point of the other thread was that of idolatry (in reference to Hinduism influence) which is why it led to this discussion.

 

 

You just answered your own question. These Sants give people a subjective spiritual experience, therefore they start venerating them.

Edited by amardeep

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9 minutes ago, amardeep said:

You just answered your own question. These Sants give people a subjective spiritual experience, therefore they start venerating them.

But the venerating is where we possibly are starting to encroach into idolatry... Only Waheguru should be venerated no? Yes we should respect someone we *perceive* to be higher spiritually than ourselves. But still, we might be wrong as human mind is prone to err and sometimes people are not who we think they are. And still yet, venerating an aspect of this duality existence, is still living in duality is it not? We should recognize that ultimate truth is ONE. If who we deem to be a Sant is in fact a true Sant (brahamgiani) then there will be no difference between God and them. So it's God we are venerating and not the individual entity. So saving toenail or fingernail clippings, hair, even their slippers or turbans (all physical things) are not what we should be bowing to.  Do you get what I am trying to say?? Physical in the end everything will disappear. Only thing which is real, is not physical. 

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29 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

If it's not a title or position, then why do many treat it as such? To the point of lavishing in people bowing to them etc? Why do their followers go to the point of worshipping their now departed Sant's personal possessions, or even attributing spiritual powers to things like fingernail clippings? Are these behaviours not dangerously treading upon that which Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemned (idolatry)??

 

Its not enitrely subjective, there will be outward signs.  these may be listed in SGGS.

In SGGS, (I cannot remember where- sorry), I once read Saloks stating that the possessions of a Sant are indeed sacred.  However I don't know about attributing special powers etc to these objects.

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1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Why do their followers go to the point of worshipping their now departed Sant's personal possessions

Why do Sikhs bow down to relics of Guru Sahiban like comb, hair of Guru Amardas Ji Maharaj, mirror of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj, slippers, turbans, kharawan, clothing and other  items ?   Because it connects them with their Guru & God, and they have love & devotion.  Guru Sahibans are also Nirankar in Human Bodies during their time.

Similarly, Sants who have become complete with God become the roop of Guru or God. People show their respect & devotion by bowing down to their slippers or clothes. I only know of Baba Nand Singh Ji & Baba Ishar SIngh Ji kaleran. I am not sure about others. Infact Baba Nand Singh Jis name has been mentioned in Sau Sakhi along with other great Saints.

48 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

So saving toenail or fingernail clippings

Where are you getting this from ? Who is doing this..

And definition of Saint is not subjective. Guru Ji says those who do not forget God with each breath are Saints..jina saas giraas na visre...

ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥

Those who do not forget the Lord with each breath and morsel of food whose minds are filled with the Mantra of the Lord's Name

Jinā sās girās na visrai har nāmāʼn man manṯ.

Who with every breath and morsel of theirs, forget not God's Name and within whose mind is this spell,

ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥

- they alone are blessed; O Nanak, they are the perfect Saints. ||1||

Ḏẖan sė se▫ī nānkā pūran so▫ī sanṯ. ||1||

they alone are the blessed and they alone are the perfect saints, O Nanak.

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3 hours ago, Lucky said:

I'm not posting to poke at you or anything but I just wanted to mention about the couple of spiritual points you mentioned above :)

I get your point brother :). I understand these things are hard to translate to written words thus stories can help to get the point across.

I was trying to relate to two instances during Sant Ishar Singh Ji Rara Sahibs time when Suleman could not enter near the aura ( for a lack of better word) tej pratap and requested Sant Ji to let him or allow him to come near. And there were many time when devotees could not look at the face of Baba Nand Singh Ji. It was described as looking at a bright sun & unable to keep their eyes open. Also Baba Mahaharnam Singh Ji ( Murshad of Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji ) would keep their face covered. Once few mischievous youth took off the cloth over their face, and a pile of hay in front of their eyes got burnt.

My point is that if you happen to come in contact with such a powerful personality/ a pooran Sant, it can be hard to miss especially if you are receptive or have the grace of Guru. But I also get what you were trying to tell me as well.

 

 

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1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Okay we have determined a Sant is entirely subjective.  A Sant to me, might not be a Sant to you and vice versa, so it's someone who is special to you who helps YOU in your own spiritual journey. That means every one of us could be a Sant to someone else as long as we help someone else on their path. It's not a title or position.

If it's not a title or position, then why do many treat it as such? To the point of lavishing in people bowing to them etc? Why do their followers go to the point of worshipping their now departed Sant's personal possessions, or even attributing spiritual powers to things like fingernail clippings? Are these behaviours not dangerously treading upon that which Guru Nanak Dev Ji condemned (idolatry)??

The whole point of the other thread was that of idolatry (in reference to Hinduism influence) which is why it led to this discussion.

 

 

I understand there tends to be over board personality worship/their idea worship but that something to do with followers be stuck with pointer as opposed to what pointer is pointing towards..Whether akj followers with their bhai sahib, 3ho with their yogi, taksali, nanaksar with their sants, nihangs with jathedars so on and so forth.

But with that being said, glory and respect shown towards sants is not all subjective, its part and parcel of gurbani theme of sadh sangat and sat sangat...Gurbani talks about it and encourages their company. Respect and worship are different things. One can deeply respect sants, follow their gurmat gurbani reiterated practical teachings yet not worship them- idiolize them in a way where one's surat- consciousness is totally caught up in their form, worshiping them, worshiping their ideals conceptually without any direct experience with them. Unfortunately, lot of sikhs from all walks of life and jathas are caught up in personality worship/idiolize them in a way where one does not even make effort to follow the message they are trying to convey but rather stuck in a pointer/messenger. 

As they say- being religious is idolizing someone else experience  but being spiritual is bringing up teaching which deeply resonates with one and with right guidance from saints and having its own direct experience.

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