Jump to content

How to tell if someone you meet is a Sant or not...


CdnSikhGirl

Recommended Posts

When you read Gurbani two major themes that you come across are  Naam & Saints.

Guru Ji says to do Naam Japp & do service & keep company of Saints.  And Guru ji also have given indications what is a Sat Sangat & who is a Sant so that you do not go wrong.

Saints are the teachers who once were students & will carry you across as well.

@CdnSikhGirl  I am not sure if you know this but this is quite popular oral tradition in Sikhism.   Guru ji have said that they will take 11 Pargat Forms as Guru Sahiban & 74 Gupt Forms in the forms of Saints during the Kalyug time period. Almost everyone will attest to this tradition. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, N30 S!NGH said:

I understand there tends to be over board personality worship/their idea worship but that something to do with followers be stuck with pointer as opposed to what pointer is pointing towards..Whether akj followers with their bhai sahib, 3ho with their yogi, taksali, nanaksar with their sants, nihangs with jathedars so on and so forth.

But with that being said, glory and respect shown towards sants is not all subjective, its part and parcel of gurbani theme of sadh sangat and sat sangat...Gurbani talks about it and encourages their company. Respect and worship are different things. One can deeply respect sants, follow their gurmat gurbani reiterated practical teachings yet not worship them- idiolize them in a way where one's surat- consciousness is totally caught up in their form, worshiping them, worshiping their ideals conceptually without any direct experience with them. Unfortunately, lot of sikhs from all walks of life and jathas are caught up in personality worship/idiolize them in a way where one does not even make effort to follow the message they are trying to convey but rather stuck in a pointer/messenger. 

As they say- being religious is idolizing someone else experience  but being spiritual is bringing up teaching which deeply resonates with one and with right guidance from saints and having its own direct experience.

This is what I am trying to push across ^^^ the parts in the bold!!

Also, 'deeply resonates with one' might not resonate with another. Yet a different person might resonate with that person. Everyone's spiritual path is different, but the destination is the same.

@Rock The Gurbani you quoted, lists qualities that ALL Gurmukhs are to have. We are to ALL remember God with every breath. And we are to ALL strive to actively do it. That means we all can be seen as Saints. What I am trying to get across is that the personalities who sit on a platform, patting heads of worshippers who are bowing to them. Those are to me, NOT what a Saint is. A Saint would realize that there is no difference between the one doing the bowing and him/herself as there is only ONEness. And so they would not feel above that person, so why would they allow worshipping of their form, or of their belongings? The only difference between the Saint and the devotee is that one has not yet had the veil of separation / duality lifted. The other has. From the perspective of the true Saint who knows the truth to reality, there is no difference between the Saint and the one worshipping the Saint. No difference between the King and the Beggar, no difference between High caste and low caste, no difference between male and female. As all are ONE and the forms are temporary and will be destroyed. I would think a true Saint will help others to remove the veil as well, and not be concerned with giving out 'blessings' or sitting on a higher platform, and they would NEVER want their slippers bowed to! LOL

As for the fingernail clippings, I can't say as we established we can't mention names.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

But the venerating is where we possibly are starting to encroach into idolatry... Only Waheguru should be venerated no? Yes we should respect someone we *perceive* to be higher spiritually than ourselves. But still, we might be wrong as human mind is prone to err and sometimes people are not who we think they are. And still yet, venerating an aspect of this duality existence, is still living in duality is it not? We should recognize that ultimate truth is ONE. If who we deem to be a Sant is in fact a true Sant (brahamgiani) then there will be no difference between God and them. So it's God we are venerating and not the individual entity. So saving toenail or fingernail clippings, hair, even their slippers or turbans (all physical things) are not what we should be bowing to.  Do you get what I am trying to say?? Physical in the end everything will disappear. Only thing which is real, is not physical. 

You are mixing two Things here. The Sikh Sangat consists of a plurality of people. In Gurbani and the vaars we hear about Saadhs, Sants, Vivekis, Gianis, Bhagats etc. These are not different names for the same thing as is commonly understood. In fact they are entirely different people having different natures and methods of reaching the divine. Each of their ways is complete.  A bhagat is one that is engaged in loving worship of the divine through various Sarguna practices - often through a personal relationship. One of these can be to show veneration and love for a man of God because they see them as gateways to God. By serving a man of God they believe they are serving God. A Giani is one who contemplates the divine through meditative practices and also "studies" the philosophy of life and soul - a search through both scriptural and spiritual methods.

Often you will see that those people who venerate saints are of the bhagti nature - simple minded, peacefull and dont bother to study the higher philosophies.. This is an accepted method... You are using an argumentation/Outlook of the Giani by discussing the futility of the bhakti actions... I hope that makes sense. Its a bit difficult to explain. But in generel you can't judge the actions of a bhagat by using the Outlook of a Viveki/Giani.  And when I say giani i dont mean the local Gurdwara granthi lol.

in many cases however, people go to the extreme where veneration becomes worship.

Edited by amardeep
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

I would think a true Saint will help others to remove the veil as well, and not be concerned with giving out 'blessings' or sitting on a higher platform, and they would NEVER want their slippers bowed to! LOL

omg you never get the point do you ?  you are making me crazy.

What I am telling you is Saints do not care about anyone bowing them or not ......its the devotees who have shardha , love & devotion,,,its for their own benefit. And its usually done once the Saint leaves his physical body and becomes Nirgum Brahm.

@CdnSikhGirl   you have not answered my question ?  Why do Sikhs bow down to relics of Guru Sahiban ?  You can open a new thread if you want.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, CdnSikhGirl said:

Also, 'deeply resonates with one' might not resonate with another. Yet a different person might resonate with that person. Everyone's spiritual path is different, but the destination is the same.

@Rock The Gurbani you quoted, lists qualities that ALL Gurmukhs are to have. We are to ALL remember God with every breath. And we are to ALL strive to actively do it. That means we all can be seen as Saints. What I am trying to get across is that the personalities who sit on a platform, patting heads of worshippers who are bowing to them. Those are to me, NOT what a Saint is. A Saint would realize that there is no difference between the one doing the bowing and him/herself as there is only ONEness. And so they would not feel above that person, so why would they allow worshipping of their form, or of their belongings? The only difference between the Saint and the devotee is that one has not yet had the veil of separation / duality lifted. The other has. From the perspective of the true Saint who knows the truth to reality, there is no difference between the Saint and the one worshipping the Saint. No difference between the King and the Beggar, no difference between High caste and low caste, no difference between male and female. As all are ONE and the forms are temporary and will be destroyed. I would think a true Saint will help others to remove the veil as well, and not be concerned with giving out 'blessings' or sitting on a higher platform, and they would NEVER want their slippers bowed to! LOL

As for the fingernail clippings, I can't say as we established we can't mention names.

 

Preserving, respecting relics of our  beloved Guru's and past gursikhs and sants is tradition in our community and same goes with other spiritual communities in asia- tibetan buddhism, indic spiritual traditions, toaism etc including many first nation communities in canada . This might be slightly hard for colonial west mindset to grasp but everything isn't simplistic, black and white in this world, these things-relics have its contextualized place. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Rock said:

Guru ji have said that they will take 11 Pargat Forms as Guru Sahiban & 74 Gupt Forms in the forms of Saints during the Kalyug time period

Bro, have you got anymore info on this. I was told there will be 74 or 72 nit avtars, one of which was sant baba ishar singh rara sahib... people totally disregard oral tradition, its all about book references now.. ..just adding/editing...i can understand this, as in this age there's less credibility in oral tradition than books..

In regards to the questions recognizing sants, i have to agree with n3o singhs' first post...when you have these experiences its not something that can be easily explained, hence its best to just keep quiet about it or shared at an intimate level

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, samurai said:

Bro, have you got anymore info on this. I was told there will be 74 or 72 nit avtars, one of which was sant baba ishar singh rara sahib... people totally disregard oral tradition, its all about book references now.. 

Check out this thread 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never want to talk in these conversations because 

1. All of you are a lot more experienced and knowledgeable than me so I will most likely say something stupid

2. There's wayyyyyy tooooo much to read 

 

Anyways, all I want to say is that everyone is a saint at the end of the day. Some people recognize who they are more than others. That is the only difference. All that exists is jot/universe/oneness etc. Nothing is outside of this. So why not just express love towards everyone?

 

They haven't done anything to you. Even if they did, it's just the oneness doing something to the oneness. If it is not in your control then why carry it on your back? I mean if there is something you can change then change it but if something is not in your control then what are you going to achieve by carrying it around in your mind? If someone even speaks of spirituality they deserve nothing but love.

 

End of day, whether you talk negative about someone who has recognized themself does not matter. They are not thinking of you even if you are constantly bashing them in your mind. If you can get something out of them then take full advantage. If you can't then keep walking, don't dwell on it and carry them on your back. You may not be physically worshipping them but in a way you are mentally worshipping them even if it is nindhia. 

 

ਹਉ ਕਾਟਉ ਕਾਟਿ ਬਾਢਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਰਾਖਉ ਜਿਤੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੰਤੁ ਚੜਿ ਆਵੈ ॥੪॥੩॥
I would cut off my head, and cut it into pieces, O Nanak, and set it down for the Saints to walk upon. ||4||3||

 

ਗਰਬੁ ਨ ਕੀਜੈ ਰੇਣ ਹੋਵੀਜੈ ਤਾ ਗਤਿ ਜੀਅਰੇ ਤੇਰੀ ॥
O soul, don't be so arrogant - become the dust of all, and you shall be saved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 08/04/2016 at 11:21 AM, amardeep said:

I see sant as a "subjective" personal thing in the relation between the sant and his students. Sant is not an official title.

The Label is only a recent thing in Sikhs. Before the term Sant became popular, the term "Guru" was in vogue (and still is amongst some, not as Satguru, but Guru as in teacher). Personally i think the aura and the radiance of a Sant would be an indication.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

The Label is only a recent thing in Sikhs. Before the term Sant became popular, the term "Guru" was in vogue (and still is amongst some, not as Satguru, but Guru as in teacher). Personally i think the aura and the radiance of a Sant would be an indication.

True.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think a REALLY good test is to picture a random card from a pack of cards on the way to meeting the sant; but make sure you pray that the sant will name the card when you first meet them.

If they do, unprompted, they was antarjami and are not bogus.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Mind-reader Saints

Well that would only work with one who is at a really high level and with only certain people who have that gift of mind-reading.

The truth is that not all high-level saints can read minds.

It is also true that you don't really need a high level saint to get you across.
You could also do with one who can't necessarily read minds but who can guide the way, who can explain spirituality to you in the right way, who can get you the results!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On Veneration of a Saint


ਐਸਾ ਜੋਗੀ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਭੇਟੈ ਮਾਇਆ ਕੇ ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟੈ ॥
ਸੇਵਾ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਉ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਕੀ ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਸੁ ਪਗ ਚਾਟੈ ॥੫॥੧੧॥੧੩੨॥

aisa yogi vadbhagi bhetai, maya ke bhandhan katai.
seva pooj karo tis murti ki, nanak tis pag chatai.

Such a yogi, who cuts desires of material and worldly desires, is found by great fortune.
Serve and worship the murti, idol, of such a yogi, Guru Arjun says I lick his feet.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

On Mind-reader Saints

Well that would only work with one who is at a really high level and with only certain people who have that gift of mind-reading.

The truth is that not all high-level saints can read minds.

It is also true that you don't really need a high level saint to get you across.
You could also do with one who can't necessarily read minds but who can guide the way, who can explain spirituality to you in the right way, who can get you the results!

What a cop out. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read the following method in Anand Chamatkar which is the biography of Sant Baba Nand Singh Ji. 

Although it is recommended that you should never test a Sant but if you do happen to test a real Sant then you should also prepare yourself for a test from the Sant himself. So if one is looking for a Murshad in the form of a Sant, he or she may stand in front of Guru Granth Sahib and do the following ardas benti prayer. O Guru Ji! I am going to meet the following Saint. Please bless me with the sumar knowledge to meet him . If the sant is brahmgiani & abedh with you please let him solve my following doubts or questions or let him do the following. If the Sant is Pooran Brahmgiani Enlightened Abedh with Guru Sahib he will get the message directly from Guru Sahib. When you go see the Saint whatever Ardas you would do will be solved. This is a tried & tested method.  Personally, I have never found anyone on whom I could try this method on.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I think a REALLY good test is to picture a random card from a pack of cards on the way to meeting the sant; but make sure you pray that the sant will name the card when you first meet them.If they do, unprompted, they was antarjami and are not bogus.  

This method will work too.  People have used knowingly unknowingly used similar methods in past. 

In these days, you may find highly spiritual  non-mind reading Gursikhs who can guide you along the path but finding a genuine Pooran Brahmgiani Sant is very rare. I have seen great gursikhs but never found a Saint. Although it maybe good in a way because one may not ready or in correct mental state to meet an Enlightened being.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

49 minutes ago, Rock said:

This method will work too.  People have used knowingly unknowingly used similar methods in past. 

In these days, you may find highly spiritual  non-mind reading Gursikhs who can guide you along the path but finding a genuine Pooran Brahmgiani Sant is very rare. I have seen great gursikhs but never found a Saint. Although it maybe good in a way because one may not ready or in correct mental state to meet an Enlightened being.

It's not the only method.

You can only ask them to perform some kind of a "miracle".

Like so -

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 4/7/2016 at 5:51 PM, Kam1825 said:

Gurfateh the easiest way to know if If we judge them in accordance to Gurbani. In the Sahaskriti Salok you get the salok, 'Mantran Ram Ram Naman' and then the other thing you have to look for is the virtues that are mentioned in the Sri Suraj Parkash. 

ANG 1357

ਮੰਤ੍ਰੰ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੰ ਧ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਪੂਰਨਹ ॥

 

Through the Mantra of the Name of the Lord, Raam, Raam, one meditates on the All-pervading Lord.

 

ਗ੍ਯ੍ਯਾਨੰ ਸਮ ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖੰ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਨਿਰਮਲ ਨਿਰਵੈਰਣਹ ॥

 

Those who have the wisdom to look alike upon pleasure and pain, live the immaculate lifestyle, free of vengeance.

 

ਦਯਾਲੰ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਜੀਆ ਪੰਚ ਦੋਖ ਬਿਵਰਜਿਤਹ ॥

 

They are kind to all beings; they have overpowered the five thieves.

 

ਭੋਜਨੰ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਕੀਰਤਨੰ ਅਲਪ ਮਾਯਾ ਜਲ ਕਮਲ ਰਹਤਹ ॥

 

They take the Kirtan of the Lord's Praise as their food; they remain untouched by Maya, like the lotus in the water.

 

ਉਪਦੇਸੰ ਸਮ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਤ੍ਰਹ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਾਵਨੀ ॥

 

They share the Teachings with friend and enemy alike; they love the devotional worship of God.

 

ਪਰ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਨਹ ਸ੍ਰੋਤਿ ਸ੍ਰਵਣੰ ਆਪੁ ਤ੍ਯ੍ਯਿਾਗਿ ਸਗਲ ਰੇਣੁਕਹ ॥

 

They do not listen to slander; renouncing self-conceit, they become the dust of all.

 

ਖਟ ਲਖ੍ਯ੍ਯਣ ਪੂਰਨੰ ਪੁਰਖਹ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮ ਸਾਧ ਸ੍ਵਜਨਹ ॥੪੦

 

Whoever has these six qualities, O Nanak, is called a Holy friend. ||40||

 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Why are majority of Sikh saints men?  When I visited India I met lots of saints but they were all men?  Women were touching their feet with their heads or hands in a very subservient manner. I found it very awkward.  Why be so subservient?  From what I have learned about the Sikh religion, I was under the impression that a Sikh, whether it's a woman or a man,  were not allowed to bow down to another human being.  I never came across any Sikh women saints ever throughout my six weeks stay in India, let alone witnessing men touching their feet with their heads or hands!  Every Sikh saint I saw was always a man!  Are there no women saints in the Sikh religion then, like Saint Teresa of Avila, St Adenine in the Christian faith?  There are many more, but I can't name every single one.  I know, I don't understand everything about this religion or its followers, but surely, this must be a very common question posed by those that are not born as Sikhs or Indians?  I was so surprised to see this and still am.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest ask god

most saints in most religions are men. there  are women saints as well. i don't know the reason, you would have to ask god. 

why are more women elementary school teachers and very few men?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 hours ago, funny said:

Why are majority of Sikh saints men?  When I visited India I met lots of saints but they were all men? 

Women have better things to do than be a sant. They are busy creating and raising future generations!

That's a more important job than being a sant.

However there are and have been many women who have taken up that job.

9 hours ago, funny said:

I was under the impression that a Sikh, whether it's a woman or a man,  were not allowed to bow down to another human being.

That's not true. We bow down to anyone whom we respect. Parents, other elders, older siblings, Gurus, Sants, sacred relics and places.

North Indian saint -

South Indian saint -

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 3 weeks later...
On 7 April 2016 at 11:43 PM, CdnSikhGirl said:

@Rock

You wanted a new post for fear of going off topic.

Please tell me (and others) by what criteria do we determine if someone we meet on the street is a Sant or not? And how do we think we have any authority to ever make that assumption about someone? 

 

 

 

Sants are very quiet and only speak if it's utterly important, or they stay quiet.  They leave their egos behind when you meet them in the street.  Their lips are always moving up and down in a very slow movement which signifies naam jap.  They always dress in white and wear a kirpan.  They look very holy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 19 April 2016 at 3:50 AM, BhagatSingh said:

Women have better things to do than be a sant. They are busy creating and raising future generations!

That's a more important job than being a sant.

However there are and have been many women who have taken up that job.

That's not true. We bow down to anyone whom we respect. Parents, other elders, older siblings, Gurus, Sants, sacred relics and places.

North Indian saint -

South Indian saint -

 

But they are not dressed in white with kirpans, have they been baptised yet?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...