Bachans of Baba Nand Singh Ji & Baba Ishar Singh Ji regarding Guru Avtar & Womb

[Ragmaala]

Here is the exact transcript from Bachans of Baba Ji regarding the above topic.  This should end all debate regarding the Avtars & their coming into Womb.

 

 

[Ragmaala]

Here is a simple english translation of above for non-punjabi readers.

“I have heard these bachans from mukharbind of Baba Nand Singh ji , not any itihas. The avtars do not come into birth & death.  If Gurus Avtar also comes into cycle birth & death then what is the difference ? If an avtar also has to see womb, then what is the additional benefit ? So Baba Nand Singh ji used to bless that just like we make an earthen pot.  We make an earthen pot, but it is empty.  The object is aside from the empty pot.  Once the pot is ready for the object to be put in, we put the object inside the pot right away.  Baba Nand Singh Ji used to give this example. When the Avtars get Pargat, their pot is made in a similar way, it takes 9 months for the pot to get ready but the Avtar Shakti is standing ready for the pot.  Once the child takes birth/ is delivered the Avtar Shakti enters the empty pot/child right away.  This is how Avtars get pargat.  Baba Nand Singh ji  used to say what is the difference between laymen and Avtars if the avtars also had to take birth like laymen?  So this is how Avtars get Pargat.”

Baba Ishar Singh Ji Nanaksar Kaleran

[BhagatSingh]

@Ragmaala

2 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

We make an earthen pot, but it is empty.  The object is aside from the empty pot.  Once the pot is ready for the object to be put in, we put the object inside the pot right away. 

He is just having fun.

We are not talking about objects.

According to Guru Granth Sahib, Hari exists everywhere. How can you have a creation and not have Hari in it? Hari is supreme consciousness. Consciousness extends out as an infinite field over all of creation and permeating it.

 

 

 

This is how I would answer this question seriously -

2 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

If Gurus Avtar also comes into cycle birth & death then what is the difference ? If an avtar also has to see womb, then what is the additional benefit ?

The gurus came in the cycle of births and death due to their will and not because they were attached. They were free to do as they liked.

And if they were ignorant in previous births, I don't know if they were but if they were and were compelled due to previous attachment then while they were alive they cultivated a state of detachment and detached themselves from the compulsion to take birth, and thus merged with the supreme consciousness that is Hari.

And this is the difference between Karm and Nehkarm as well. Nehkarm are still karm but they have been performed with detachment, with freedom from outcome. And thus such freedom from outcome transforms the nature of doing into being. It changes the quality of the karm. One transcends past conditioning in this way and obtains the supreme state.

But this is just words. One would have to meditate and experience such freedom for themselves. And then they will find out very how this freedom changes their entire life and transforms it into this "supreme state".

 

If Gurus Avtar also comes into cycle birth & death then what is the difference ? If an avtar also has to see womb, then what is the additional benefit ?

Also I must say this question assumes that there is an inherent negative quality about being born in a womb. While the gross fluids of the womb do make it unpleasant. Nobody remembers that. Who cares.

What is problematic about life is that there is suffering that is unbearable.

People say  - "I am suffering too much. I cannot bear this."
Guru Sahibs answer - If you meditate on Hari then you will be free from such unbearable suffering.

People say - "This is too much for me. I wish I would die so that I don't have to go through this"
Guru Sahibs answer - You are too attached to the body and experience so if you kill yourself, you are still going to return to this exact same experience you are having now because you are attached to such experience. You will come back through the womb and have this experience. So do meditation on Hari and cultivate states of detachment so that you no longer have to return to the womb and experience it. Short form -> ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਗਰਭਿ ਨ ਬਸੈ ॥

People then twist that up and get confused. They start asking stupid questions like if what is different if Avtars also came from the womb.

Then all the Mahapurush collectively do a facepalm, and give these people an answer to distract their monkey mind so that they can finally start doing some bhagti.

And later people start quoting those same Mahapurush about stuff they said earlier. These people have no understanding and they are further confused. Instead of finding out what the Mahapurush were talking about for themselves what is different about a regular person and an avtaar through doing bhagti. They just attach themselves to words.

 

Btw Baba Nand Singh ji is sitting up there laughing at me for even attempting to rectify this. Whoever that is, he says that I am too attached to making things right and I should just let it go and let it be as it is.

[Ragmaala]

Do you believe in Jamdoots, the dangerous paths that one has to cross, and Naraks...or are those also tactics to scare people into doing bhagti ?

[Lucky]

9 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

Do you believe in Jamdoots, the dangerous paths that one has to cross, and Naraks...or are those also tactics to scare people into doing bhagti ?

They are real when you see them and you don't wanna see them coming towards you man, seriously. They appear as if hooded, and if you are unlucky enough to see their faces, ...then God help!...I don't wanna know!. 

The naraks may be seen or you may just bypass them and just get a weeee glance. Waheguru probably does this to show you what you have just avoided by uttering his name "Narayan" on your last breath. (Ajamila uttered his sons name "Narayan" and was saved from the noose of yama).

However, if your dasam is open, then you skip all this shit and go super shuttle express into Akaal Purakhs lap--  Bolaaay soooonihaaal...Saaat sreee Akaaaal  .Then you do the ultimate Fateh

 

 

 

[paapiman]

15 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

Here is the exact transcript from Bachans of Baba Ji regarding the above topic.  This should end all debate regarding the Avtars & their coming into Womb.

 

 

Matches (more or less) with Taksal ideology.

Thanks for sharing bro.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Ragmaala]

45 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Matches (more or less) with Taksal ideology.

Thanks for sharing bro.

No problem, it is my moral duty to share Bachans of Great Sages esp when things come close to Guru Nindya.

I am sure not even Taksal but other realized Mahapurush share the same sentiment.

[BhagatSingh]

@Ragmaala

Since you listen to Mahapurush so much, explain this to me Ragmaala -

How can you have a creation and not have Hari present in it?

[BhagatSingh]

16 hours ago, Ragmaala said:

tactics to scare people into doing bhagti

Is that what you think I said?

[HappyDays]

All this talk about Guru Avtar and when they come into the body is so pointless. It's a useless discussion and gives us no benefit, it just looks foolish. So Avtar gets to come in the body later? Okay cool story, who cares, lets move on to more important things now. Bhagat Singh has already spoken to Baba Nand Singh Ji on the matter. Just let it go Raagmala.                                                          "Baba Nand Singh ji is sitting up there laughing at me for even attempting to rectify this. Whoever that is, he says that I am too attached to making things right and I should just let it go and let it be as it is."

[Ragmaala]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

@Ragmaala

Since you listen to Mahapurush so much, explain this to me Ragmaala -

How can you have a creation and not have Hari present in it?

Hari is permeating everything, it is called the Nirgun Form. Nirgun is present in your tatti & peshab too.

As per Baba Ishar Singh Ji , "Nirgun is Asudh Brahm. Nirgun cannot give you salvation. Just like Ghee is present in Cow but it cannot benefit you unless you churn milk and make butter & ghee"

Sargun is Guru Nanak.  Sargun also does not come into jooni nor does have intercourse.

But yes you can say that Nirgun is present in wombs, intestines, urinary bladders, sinus cavities producing phlegm, infection, bacteria, tatti, fart, menstruation, semen, sperm, cells, you get the idea.   But it does not matter. This whole creation is Nirgun.  But it does not mean anything nor does it solve anything nor does it give you anything. Nirgun is present when people are fornicating, drinking and enjoying drugs, Nirgun does not give a shit about you me, or creation.

Only Sargun Guru Nanak is the one who really matters.  Sargun is Shudh Brahm!

You cannot say the above things I just said about the Sargun Guru Nanak. Similarly you canot say Sargun comes into jooni or has intercourse.

lol.

 

 

 

 

[Ragmaala]

@BhagatSingh    Do you believe in scary Yamdoots as real entities or not ? or is that 'imaginary or poetic suffering' made up ? lol

[HappyDays]

10 hours ago, Lucky said:

They are real when you see them and you don't wanna see them coming towards you man, seriously. They appear as if hooded, and if you are unlucky enough to see their faces, ...then God help!...I don't wanna know!. 

The naraks may be seen or you may just bypass them and just get a weeee glance. Waheguru probably does this to show you what you have just avoided by uttering his name "Narayan" on your last breath. (Ajamila uttered his sons name "Narayan" and was saved from the noose of yama).

 

 

 

 

Ay Lucky, doesn't that sound foolish to you he is calling out Narayan but his chit is on his son not god. So it's just a word that he does not associate with god. He is not thinking of god, he is thinking of his son. Yet he gets saved while yelling out to his son. Some things just don't add up lol. I think we take things too literally sometimes and don't get the message behind it. Like in the Quran it says if a person does not believe in Allah they should have their head removed. Some muslims then go killing people who don't believe in Allah. I'm pretty sure that's not what Mohammed intended. Lol! Then you look at Jesus saying drink with me in my fathers kingdom. Christians then start drinking wine in their Churches. Lol! While Jesus was talking about amrit ras. People take things too literally man.

[Ragmaala]

@HappyDays   Talk to your grandfather about this topic, if Avtars & Gurus come into Garbh Jooni. I am sure he will provide an insightful answer beneficial to us all. Hope to hear from you soon!

[HappyDays]

23 minutes ago, Ragmaala said:

@HappyDays   Talk to your grandfather about this topic, if Avtars & Gurus come into Garbh Jooni. I am sure he will provide an insightful answer beneficial to us all. Hope to hear from you soon!

I'm going to India in 3 months to meditate I'll make sure to bring this across and let you know what he says.

[samurai]

@Ragmaala wise up bruva...this @HappyDays grand papa is no other than shrooms.

[Lucky]

56 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

Ay Lucky, doesn't that sound foolish to you he is calling out Narayan but his chit is on his son not god. So it's just a word that he does not associate with god. He is not thinking of god, he is thinking of his son. Yet he gets saved while yelling out to his son. Some things just don't add up lol..

I know,...I really know. Of course it's foolish. You can't have your dyaan elsewhere and be uttering God's name expecting forgiveness for sins and acceptance in his court.  Yes, this story is referred to in Gurbani and I clearly know that it is always grasped from the wrong end of the stick. 

Most people and kathavachaks even, talk about the uttering of God's name and how the syllables of "Narayan" helped to clear Ajamal's sins, even though he wasn't meditating on the Lord.

The story goes further than this and the message is that after uttering Narayan,  Ajamil was saved from the messengers of Dharamraj (the jams) because they were intervened by Lord Vishnu, who claimed he was to protect anyone that utters the name of Narayan.  Some debate goes on between them and Dharam and Adharam is discussed..Ajamil witnessed this and came out of this NDE(near death experience).    The deeper message was that Ajamil realised and awakened to his senses, awoke to his wrongs, and awoke to who his real maker was. He was now aware that the  Lord's name has so much power, and he said to himself  "what will happen if I utter it even further and to him directly"?.

 The message was about showing the dharam and someone(guru) to show the way, it leaves you working out who guru is and how you may need some to guide you from dark-->Light..etc.....Anyway, story goes that Ajamil left and spent the rest of his days in deep meditation to Akaal purakh by some river banks. I believe he attained greater heights in bhakti and was enlightened.(I don't quite remember full details)

I know exactly what you are saying, that they all look at stories and texts very literally in all the faiths and just get it wrong. I have loads of meditative interpretations, especially with huge chunks of Christian bible. There is plenty of gurmat in there when you find it. We, the people, are the biggest fools, regardless of dharam.

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-06-22 at 4:58 PM, Ragmaala said:

Hari is permeating everything, it is called the Nirgun Form. Nirgun is present in your tatti & peshab too.

As per Baba Ishar Singh Ji , "Nirgun is Asudh Brahm. Nirgun cannot give you salvation. Just like Ghee is present in Cow but it cannot benefit you unless you churn milk and make butter & ghee"

Sargun is Guru Nanak.  Sargun also does not come into jooni nor does have intercourse.

Only Sargun Guru Nanak is the one who really matters.  Sargun is Shudh Brahm!

Define your terms. None of what you have said so far is mentioned in Guru Granth Sahib.

So do start with some definitions

What is Nirgin Hari?

What is Sargun Hari?

[BhagatSingh]

On 2016-06-22 at 5:03 PM, Ragmaala said:

@BhagatSingh  'imaginary or poetic suffering'

Is that what you think I said?

[Ragmaala]

I cannot tell anyone what Nirgun is. Even if someone goes into Nirgun they cannot explain it in words. But for a working definition, Nirgun is Everything, starting from partciles to all universes & other infinite everything. No one can describe it.

Bachan of Baba Ishar Singh Ji ," The end goal is Nirgun but it is done through Sargun".

Sargun Hari for Sikhs is Guru Nanak.

tbh, I am not interested in discussing if Gurus came into joonis, or were affected by 5 chors as happydays mentioned, or did intercourse etc etc. 

I only place my trust in the travellers who have walked the unknown path. I place my hand in those Mahapurush & trust their Bachans. Beyond that nothing else matters really.

[Ragmaala]

If one is really interested, they can visit this link which has the audio tapes & the transcripts of Baba Ishar Singh Jis bachans. The audio quality varies & it need your full focus.

http://nanaksargurdwara.com/books

I dont feel I am worthy of trying to make sense of a Mahapurush Bachan & trying to explain it.  I have given the gist, Make of it what anyone wants to.

But I am done with this topic.

My faith is unshakeable from their bachans, and no discussion is going to change that. ! cheers