Praveen Singh Khalsa Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh ji Saadh sangat ji daas got an question What has an Amritdhari Singh or Singhni have to do when he or she lied do they have to be pesh in front of the Panj Pyaare or what does he or she have to do? Pul chuk di Maaf karni Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh ji 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 1 hour ago, Praveen Singh Khalsa said: Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguruji ki Fateh ji Saadh sangat ji daas got an question What has an Amritdhari Singh or Singhni have to do when he or she lied do they have to be pesh in front of the Panj Pyaare or what does he or she have to do? Pul chuk di Maaf karni Waheguru ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki Fateh ji Did the lie cause trouble to other people or negatively affected their lives? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasperS Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 This is a tricky question. Guru Nanak said truth is higher than anything but higher than that is truthful living. So what is truthful living? Can someone tell the truth 100% of the time? Lets say you answer the door, and someone holding a gun asks for your brother (who is in the house) because they are going to kill him while saying they have no problem with you. Do you tell the truth and your brother gets shot? Or do you lie and save his life? Some would say well your brother is obligated to be a warrior and fight being he is a Sikh, but in this case with the gun drawn its already a lost battle. What do you do? (without trying to find loopholes in the scenario in order to try avoiding answering). And if you lie to save his life, is that considered a sin? Is truthful living the same thing as always telling to truth? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tva prasad Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 Just now, JasperS said: This is a tricky question. Guru Nanak said truth is higher than anything but higher than that is truthful living. So what is truthful living? Can someone tell the truth 100% of the time? Lets say you answer the door, and someone holding a gun asks for your brother (who is in the house) because they are going to kill him while saying they have no problem with you. Do you tell the truth and your brother gets shot? Or do you lie and save his life? Some would say well your brother is obligated to be a warrior and fight being he is a Sikh, but in this case with the gun drawn its already a lost battle. What do you do? (without trying to find loopholes in the scenario in order to try avoiding answering). And if you lie to save his life, is that considered a sin? Is truthful living the same thing as always telling to truth? I wud call the police. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasperS Posted November 17, 2016 Report Share Posted November 17, 2016 45 minutes ago, tva prasad said: I wud call the police. But, alas you've already opened the door and the gun is in your face. If you tell the truth and the gunman goes to look for your brother, by the time you call police he would be dead. What do you do? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tva prasad Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 4 hours ago, JasperS said: But, alas you've already opened the door and the gun is in your face. If you tell the truth and the gunman goes to look for your brother, by the time you call police he would be dead. What do you do? that's a tough situation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 13 hours ago, JasperS said: Do you tell the truth and your brother gets shot? Or do you lie and save his life? Your using a definition of truth that is not the same as the one Guru Nanak Dev ji is using. Because your brother is your brother and his life is valuable to you. This is also truth. And saving him can only be done by directing the assassin elsewhere. This is also truth. So you speak that which is core to your heart, you speak that which you embody. Do your have desire to save your brother? or not? If you have desire to save your brother and you tell the assassin where he is. Then you lied. You did not speak from a truthful place. Contemplate this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tva prasad Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Just now, BhagatSingh said: Your using a definition of truth that is not the same as the one Guru Nanak Dev ji is using. Because your brother is your brother and his life is valuable to you. This is also truth. And saving him can only be done by directing the assassin elsewhere. This is also truth. So you speak that which is core to your heart, you speak that which you embody. Do your have desire to save your brother? or not? If you have desire to save your brother and you tell the assassin where he is. Then you lied. You did not speak from a truthful place. Contemplate this. so if u told the guy ur brother's gone out of the house that'll be telling the truth? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 4 hours ago, tva prasad said: so if u told the guy ur brother's gone out of the house that'll be telling the truth? Yes if you had a desire to save your brother then if you misdirected the assassin, that will be coming from a place of truth. If you had a desire to save your brother and if you told the assassin the facts, then that will not be coming from a place of truth. This is known as truthful living in that quote by Guru Nanak Dev ji. Recognizing the situation for what it is (knowing the truth) and acting from from a place of recognizing this truth (truthful living) and doing so with utmost clarity and equanimity (truthful living) is what Guru sahib was talking about. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasperS Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 13 hours ago, BhagatSingh said: Your using a definition of truth that is not the same as the one Guru Nanak Dev ji is using. Because your brother is your brother and his life is valuable to you. This is also truth. And saving him can only be done by directing the assassin elsewhere. This is also truth. So you speak that which is core to your heart, you speak that which you embody. Do your have desire to save your brother? or not? If you have desire to save your brother and you tell the assassin where he is. Then you lied. You did not speak from a truthful place. Contemplate this. Actually that was my point. I was trying to get him to think it out and come to that realization himself. Truthful living is not the same as telling the truth. So what you wrote above is exactly the point I was trying to make. It's not possible for a human to always speak the truth 100% of the time (in relative terms).I was just hoping everyone would read the scenario and come to that conclusion themselves thats why I worded it that way. So 100% in agreement with you! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 47 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said: Yes if you had a desire to save your brother then if you misdirected the assassin, that will be coming from a place of truth. A lie is a lie, which is a sin. Period. If the truth can harm someone, then stay silent. If a lie can help someone, then one can say it (only for serious matters like saving a life or preventing assaults), but it will still become part of your lekha and you will have to erase it by doing Bhagti. On the bright side, you will gain many merits for saving a life or preventing an assault. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said: Yes if you had a desire to save your brother then if you misdirected the assassin, that will be coming from a place of truth. If you had a desire to save your brother and if you told the assassin the facts, then that will not be coming from a place of truth. This is known as truthful living in that quote by Guru Nanak Dev ji. Sikhism teaches us to choose an option (in case of ethical dilemmas) which minimizes lekha. In the above scenario, saving your brother by lying would do this, rather than having him killed by stating the truth. It is a pretty simple decision in this case. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 @paapiman It's about speaking what you embody. That is the truth. If you embody the idea that you must always state facts then you will tell the assassin where your brother is even if you desire to save him. Then you must give accurate facts to the assassin for you it would be truthful to yourself. And if that means your brother dies then so be it. You face the consequences either way. For each person it is different. Reducing "lekha" depends on the individual because people lift different kinds of burden. I might call you ugly and you think, ok sure whatever. No effect. I might call someone else ugly and they get depressed. This is because of individual differences. Quote If the truth can harm someone, then stay silent. It's not as simple. Like you Paapiman need to be told that you are accumulating a lot of information without understanding it and integrating it. That might hurt you but you need to hear that. I know that to be the truth and I embody it so I must say it. - You must always speak the truth but what you speak and whether or not you speak depends on the situation. Because truth can be spoken while being silent also. - Stating facts is not speaking truth. To speak the truth, you must recognize Hukam and learn to align yourself with it. Question - Kiv sachiara hoyiye kiv koode tute paal how to be truthful and break through falsehood? Answer - hukam raza e chalna nanak likhia naal Nanak says, by recognizing hukam and walking with hukam at every moment (that's how you can be truthful). Once you practice recognizing the truth (hukam) then truthful living (hukam raza e chalna) will come easily . 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 4 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said: It's not as simple. You must always speak the truth but what you speak depends on the situation. Silence can be golden. ਸੰਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ When you meet a Saint, talk to him and listen. ਮਿਲੈ ਅਸੰਤੁ ਮਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ Meeting with an unsaintly person, just remain silent. ||1|| Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 Yes. Reread my post I edited it after you took the quote. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samurai Posted November 18, 2016 Report Share Posted November 18, 2016 there's a saint who lied about the direction of where the cow went to a butcher... please contemplate, and make sure you praise me when you have contemplated...serious man..ffs 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ragmaala Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 5 hours ago, paapiman said: ਸੰਤੁ ਮਿਲੈ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਨੀਐ ਕਹੀਐ ॥ When you meet a Saint, talk to him and listen. ਮਿਲੈ ਅਸੰਤੁ ਮਸਟਿ ਕਰਿ ਰਹੀਐ ॥੧॥ Meeting with an unsaintly person, just remain silent. ||1|| Simple and to the point. I remember the story of Bhai Bidi Chand Ji who stole horses to get the khushi of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj. Also, Bhai Sukha Singh & Bhai Mehtab Singh who lied to get closer to Massa Rangarh. I think it depends on context, common sense, and what your Guru is instructing you at the time. Think of it this way, if your Guru is happy with you in saving someones life, then that automatically trumps the lekha of lieing imo. Guru takes care of everything, as long as you are under his instructions & hazoori. same thing with the story of saint & cows, his par-upkar was greater than lying 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 53 minutes ago, Ragmaala said: Guru takes care of everything, as long as you are under his instructions & hazoori. Ragmaala, this is a good way of putting it. We must speak to our inner Guru, and see to it that we do whatever he guides us to do, and to perform those actions in his presence. Ultimately he takes care of it all. ਮਾਈ ਬਾਪ ਪੁਤ੍ਰ ਸਭਿ ਹਰਿ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ॥ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਨਬੰਧੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਦੀਏ ॥੧॥ Mother, father, son, etc, everyone Hari has created. He has created all the relations. ਹਮਰਾ ਜੋਰੁ ਸਭੁ ਰਹਿਓ ਮੇਰੇ ਬੀਰ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਤਨੁ ਮਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਹਰਿ ਕੈ ਵਸਿ ਹੈ ਸਰੀਰ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ My brother, I have lost my strength; my body, mind, everything belongs to Hari, my body is under his control. ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਰਧਾ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਈ ॥ ਵਿਚੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਸਤ ਉਦਾਸ ਰਹਾਈ ॥੨॥ Hari has blessed his devotees with devotion, and he kept them detached while attached in married life. ਜਬ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਬਨਿ ਆਈ ॥ ਤਬ ਜੋ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਰੇ ਸੁ ਮੇਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਈ ॥੩॥ When inside there is love for Hari, then whatever you do is pleasing to my lord Hari. ਜਿਤੁ ਕਾਰੈ ਕੰਮਿ ਹਮ ਹਰਿ ਲਾਏ ॥ ਸੋ ਹਮ ਕਰਹ ਜੁ ਆਪਿ ਕਰਾਏ ॥੪॥ I do whatever Hari has got me doing, I only do what he himself orders. ਜਿਨ ਕੀ ਭਗਤਿ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਤੇ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮ ਲਿਵ ਲਾਈ ॥੫॥੧॥੭॥੧੬॥ Those who immerse themselves in Ram naam, their devotion is pleasing to my lord. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tva prasad Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 I agree. Lying isn't always bad. There is sakhi of suthra shah. He was a poor man, the guru's sevadaars (they knew that he was poor) asked him to bring something for the guru or they would not let him go in. Suthra filled with bairaag returned home. He then came back with a sack. He asked the guards if he could go in. They asked him what he had brought. He said he had brought a sack full of sugar. He then met guru ji and said the sack was actually full of sand. His love for guru ji is immense. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 4 hours ago, Ragmaala said: Think of it this way, if your Guru is happy with you in saving someones life, then that automatically trumps the lekha of lieing imo. Guru takes care of everything, as long as you are under his instructions & hazoori. ਲੇਖਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪੁਛਈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸੰਦਾ॥ Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 2 hours ago, tva prasad said: I agree. Lying isn't always bad. There is sakhi of suthra shah. He was a poor man, the guru's sevadaars (they knew that he was poor) asked him to bring something for the guru or they would not let him go in. Suthra filled with bairaag returned home. He then came back with a sack. He asked the guards if he could go in. They asked him what he had brought. He said he had brought a sack full of sugar. He then met guru ji and said the sack was actually full of sand. His love for guru ji is immense. Are you sure that the above sakhi is of Baba Suthre Shah jee? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tva prasad Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 Just now, paapiman said: Are you sure that the above sakhi is of Baba Suthre Shah jee? Bhul chuk maaf yep I'll try and provide the link. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bal Rehal Posted November 19, 2016 Report Share Posted November 19, 2016 8 hours ago, tva prasad said: yep I'll try and provide the link 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 20, 2016 Report Share Posted November 20, 2016 20 hours ago, paapiman said: ਲੇਖਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਪੁਛਈ ਜਾ ਹਰਿ ਬਖਸੰਦਾ॥ 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BhagatSingh Posted November 20, 2016 Report Share Posted November 20, 2016 Dr. Jordan Peterson on Truth I respect this guy a lot. I have learned a lot from him. He talks about truth here starting at 17 minutes. Worth the watch. If anyone wants TLDW let me know. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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