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Havan (Fire Ritual) Maryada

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In the katha below, Gyani Inderjeet Singh Raqbewale briefly talks about Havan (fire ritual). This ritual has faded away to a great extend in Sikhism. Udasi samprada still do it.

Please start listening after 33:30 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Sant_Giani_Inderjeet_Singh_(Raqbe_wale)/Sri_Gurpartap_Sooraj_Parkash_Katha/09_Sri_Guru_Tegh_Bahadur_Ji/Giani.Inderjeet.Singh.(Raqbe.wale)--Sooraj.Parkash.Katha.-.Ras.11.Adhyai.52.-.Akal.Purkh.Paso.Vidaigi-.1996-06-22.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 4/5/2017 at 11:33 AM, mrhsinghk said:

Veer Ji they discussed this topic on this program 

 

Bro, these people might be associated with AKJ or following so-called SRM. We should avoid listening to such people as they can possibly create confusion in our minds.

Even Nihangs in the past used to do Havans.  

Sri Satguru jee (Ninth Master) did Havans, while on tour in the eastern parts of India. (Ref - Sri Sooraj Prakash Granth)

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 4/5/2017 at 11:48 AM, paapiman said:

Bro, these people might be associated with AKJ or following so-called SRM. We should avoid listening to such people as they will create confusion in our minds.

Bro, these people might be associated with AKJ or following so-called SRM. We should avoid listening to such people as they will create confusion in our minds on some subject matters, especially for people who have little knowledge of Sikh/Hindu scriptures.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Sargun Havan is not Gurmat. Gurmat says that nothing is to be worshipped except the Nirgun swarup. According to Baba Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal wale, a Gurmukh's Havan is when Gyan awakens, when the avashnas are washed with the fire of Brahmgyan. Therefore "havan" like other words is used as a metaphor.

Udasis were the real Sikh missionaries. Their job was to spread Sikhi, to attract more and more people. Therefore, in order to achieve their goals, they adopted many Sanataan practises. Of whom are the saffron bhekh, idol worship, havan etc. They did succeed. They converted many Hindus into Sehajdhari Sikhs.

However, Khalsa has been strictly advised against these practises. 

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34 minutes ago, Akali_Akal_Singh said:

Sargun Havan is not Gurmat. Gurmat says that nothing is to be worshipped except the Nirgun swarup.

Why is that bro? When Sikhs do Havan, we are suppose to read Gurbanis (worship Akal Purakh). Fire (Agni Devta) is not being worshiped, but being used as a medium to reach Waheguru jee. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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5 hours ago, paapiman said:

Why is that bro?

5 hours ago, paapiman said:

Sikhs do Havan, we are suppose to read Gurbanis (worship Akal Purakh). Fire (Agni Devta) is not being worshiped, but being used as a medium to reach Waheguru jee

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Singh Sahib, Didn't you mean traditional Hindu havan? The havan Udasis do?

Udasis recite verses from the Matra Sahib, their scripture. Udasis don't reject the demi-gods and agni worship won't be taboo to them.

As I had said earlier, Sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal Wale have defined the meaning of havan as the awakening of gyan and destruction of avashnas.

It wouldn't be bad, to do a havan with Gurbani, but It would dichotomize our already divided people. There are many a missionary walking around us and would find the slightest excuse to ostracize open-minded individuals.

There are many people who want to merge us with them. For instance, neo-Hindus often emphasize in the "Hindu-Sikh oneness". To combat this, Singh Sabha arose. They not only differentiated the definition of Sikh, but almost alienated Sikhs from their past..... 

I would suggest to do Paath, Jaap or Kirtaan instead of havan, hom etc. Their significance has been mentioned thousands times in Sri Guru Granth Sahib. 

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12 hours ago, paapiman said:

Sikh Havans are different from Hindu Havans. Namdharis still do it

which part of the above post by @Akali_Akal_Singh, didn't you understand? (please answer this, instead of dodging the questions as in the past).

Q. Doing Havan differently in sargun roop; doesn't mean it's a different nirgun worship. ... does it? If so, then please explain how and why a different approach to some sargun action "demonstrates" that the inner-nirgun homage must be different.

 

Q. I don't understand why you are justifying by bringing Namdharis into this when they don't follow "Guru Maneyo Granth"?>

Comments on topics like these need to be explained and you just continue to confuse other Sikhs by continually pasting other people's works. This just tarnishes the image of a forum. There is no constructive dialogue on here; just persistent spam like pasting that has no interactive elements that a forum is supposed to.

 

You asked some questions about the 5 tat(elements), not long ago, if you had done some vichaar using your own buddi (like a Sikh is supposed to), then you may have concluded some relevance to the issue of havan. Hence, your approach to this topic could have been more collective and productive.

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On 08/04/2017 at 11:17 PM, paapiman said:

Sikh Havans are different from Hindu Havans.

Bro do you think Sikhs had Havan at the time of Anand Kaaraj in the past, i.e. do you think they walked around the holy fire instead of SGGS?

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I remember talking to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale about this. Whilst he never downplayed havan ritual itself -udasi and nirmale do with gurbani mantras invoke shaheed singhs. He did mentioned In our tradition, havan is practical instead of offering havan /fire to deities instead fire is used in langar to cook and gurbani is reciten.

Now thats practical.

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17 minutes ago, sarabatam said:

I remember talking to sant jagjit singh ji harkhowale about this. Whilst he never downplayed havan ritual itself -udasi and nirmale do with gurbani mantras. He did mentioned In our tradition, havan is practical instead of offering havan /fire to deities instead fire is used in langar to cook and gurbani is reciten.

Now thats practical.

I see what you mean here. I have heard that mentioned in Katha before. But I'm thinking on a practical level too - in the days of old there were not hundreds of Saroops in circulation, and before that it would have been inefficient for the masses to do Laavan around the human form of Guru Sahiban. The only option would have been fire as it was both familiar to majority of Sikhs and symbolically makes sense - the fire is Parmaatma and the bride and groom make rounds, symbolising making a promise by circumambulating, around the symbolic Parmaatma that they will work together to merge with Him.

As I see it, it wasn't the holy fire that was the problem rather it was the significance behind the Vedic ceremony that was not in line with Gurmat. The Havan wouldn't be considered to be accepting offerings as such. E.g. some Gurdwaras have 24/7 jyot, nothing to do with light or purifying the air. The Janeu became the gatra etc, I'm sure you can see where I'm going.

Symbolism and symbolic practise play a role in Sikhi contrary to what many think.

I could be wrong as I'm just speculating.

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To be honest, don't think normal mass are receptive towards esoteric fire symbolism. I would say only rare individuals have dhian birthi of sargun/nirgun in same breath/flow or moment. Lot of us are caught up or stuck in pointers rather whats pointer pointing towards.

Due to maya, our senses are drawn towards objectification. Ultimately, since our dharam is gurmat advait marg - over objectification of sargun is not encouraged . I agree with bhai vir singh positions on over exaggeration worship of sargun rituals as many have fallen into.

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47 minutes ago, sarabatam said:

To be honest, don't think normal mass are receptive towards esoteric fire symbolism. I would say only rare individuals have dhian birthi of sargun/nirgun in same breath/flow or moment. Lot of us are caught up or stuck in pointers rather whats pointer pointing towards.

Due to maya, our senses are drawn towards objectification. Ultimately, since our dharam is gurmat advait marg - over objectification of sargun is not encouraged . I agree with bhai vir singh positions on over exaggeration worship of sargun rituals as many have fallen into.

Good point. But my response to that would be SGGS is just as esoteric then. Many people have little or no understanding themselves really, and when prompted to put forth their views on who/what the central figure in Sikhi is and or the significance, it's just repeating things verbatim. Would you not say that's objectification?

Tbh, the whole idea of circumambulation is moot if we are to go by this logic. I'm firmly of the view that too much symbolic ritualism has been done away with in Sikhi. It's become a case of throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

A good point to make would be Namdharis; they don't do phere around their Baba even though they consider him to be Guru and final authority. I don't believe they technically worship the fire in the Vedic sense either or see it as a manifestation of their Baba. Then again I'm not Namdhari so I can't state these points as facts but it's something to ponder over nonetheless.

Btw thanks for letting me freely air my views here, even if we disagree somewhat - had I posted this on SS I would have been attacked no end, it probably would have broken the internet.

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Good discussion all around, all views are welcome here even polar opposite ones.

Main crux here is Sri guru granth sahib ji is our Ishat Dev Guru not Agni. Objectification of Sri guru granth sahib ensues bhagti results in one of five types of mukti which is parvan in gurmat.

What does objectification of fire ensues ? Not much except if you are really esoteric knows essence(tat) of fire and really into vedant

 

 

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41 minutes ago, sarabatam said:

Good discussion all around, all views are welcome here even polar opposite ones.

Main crux here is Sri guru granth sahib ji is our Ishat Dev Guru not Agni. Objectification of Sri guru granth sahib ensues bhagti results in one of five types of mukti which is parvan in gurmat.

What does objectification of fire ensues ? Not much except if you are really esoteric knows essence(tat) of fire and really into vedant

 

Thanks bro.

True but is the fire seen as Agni Dev in a Sikh Havan, or just a mere symbolic fire? Would we need to see it through Vedant lens? Why can't it take on a new meaning altogether in Sikhi marg?

I understand that SGGS is our Isht Dev, but walking around a fire with the Laavan being read would have the same result, no? The message behind it would essentially be the same, just a different medium.

Let's just say I've got the wrong end of the stick for a second, how were marriage ceremonies performed in the old days, and I mean after the Laavan were composed?

31 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Baba Deep Singh was the leader of the Misal Shaheedan, He was born near the town of Jalandar at Dukohe, and was a Sandhu Jatt.

Baba Ji organized an Akhand Paat and completed a Havan [before heading towards the battle] and tied a wedding bracelet around his wrist [a preparation for martyrdom as death is seen as a merging with their beloved Lord]

Doaba I see. Interesting. Doaba is home to the original Nihang...I just may have found my calling.

Jokes aside, bro Kira says this is metephorical Havan. I'm 50/50 on this, leaning towards it being an actual one. Care to shed some light? Are there any other examples of metephorical Havans in any other texts?

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This video shows us how prayers are first smoke and then turn into fire. Havan is a fire. So it makes more sense to me that this is the fire which our phaat turns to which in turn reaches God.

There is lots of evil amongst our people. We believe in evil eyes, bad luck, bad omen, prayers not answered... well this makes more sense as to what the cause really is.

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