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11 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

Whoever reproduced the Rehatnamas tampered with them. 

The motive is quite obvious. With Rehatnamas being an authority on Sikh law, way of life, social structures, governence, etc., Scribes who reproduced these Rehatnamas added, edited and removed injunctions as they pleased. This was done to better suit their own needs. To justify (to the Sikh masses), propagate, and authenticate the personal ideals, practices and convictions that the scribe had held onto. 

Another motive was to address issues in the Sikh Panth at that time. 

do nihangs still have the real rehitnama, sau sakhi, etc. or not.

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22 hours ago, Kuttabanda2 said:

Whoever reproduced the Rehatnamas tampered with them. 

The motive is quite obvious. With Rehatnamas being an authority on Sikh law, way of life, social structures, governence, etc., Scribes who reproduced these Rehatnamas added, edited and removed injunctions as they pleased. This was done to better suit their own needs. To justify (to the Sikh masses), propagate, and authenticate the personal ideals, practices and convictions that the scribe had held onto. 

Another motive was to address issues in the Sikh Panth at that time. 

 

These are some points on which research could be made. How did the rehatnamas change over time, and how the Sikhs were accepting of them. When we read some of the details of the rehatnamas we can see some things which we would be concerned with, but did the Sikhs of those times prefer to accept them, leaving us with the injunctions we have today?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/29/2017 at 2:03 PM, chatanga1 said:

 

These are some points on which research could be made. How did the rehatnamas change over time, and how the Sikhs were accepting of them. When we read some of the details of the rehatnamas we can see some things which we would be concerned with, but did the Sikhs of those times prefer to accept them, leaving us with the injunctions we have today?

Looking at the transition from the 19th century to the 20th century, seems like they did accept most of them. As some of the ones we'd call "Un-Gurmat" today, happened to be in practice back then.  

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On 09/06/2017 at 10:16 PM, Kuttabanda2 said:

Looking at the transition from the 19th century to the 20th century, seems like they did accept most of them. As some of the ones we'd call "Un-Gurmat" today, happened to be in practice back then.  

 

Practices  do seem to have changed very significantly. Even the way Sikhs think nowadays and their thoughts of social, and political practices are different.

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Please listen to Gyani Inderjeet Singh jee Raqbewale providing information on Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee.

@chatanga1 - The original Granth was in Sanskirt.

Please start listening after 15:45 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Sant_Giani_Inderjeet_Singh_(Raqbe_wale)/Sri_Gurpartap_Sooraj_Parkash_Katha/05_Sri_Guru_Arjan_Dev_Ji/Giani.Inderjeet.Singh.(Raqbe.wale)--Sooraj.Parkash.Katha.-.Ras.02.Adhyai.34.-.Santokhsar.Vicho.Jogi.Nikliya.-.1994-07-23.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 6/11/2017 at 8:03 AM, chatanga1 said:

 

Practices  do seem to have changed very significantly. Even the way Sikhs think nowadays and their thoughts of social, and political practices are different.

Yeah, for example, on a social level, the attitude towards Kurehatees, anmatiye, turks, etc. have changed.  On a socio-political level, we've become relaxed on Sikh Nationalism/Identity and maintaining even the fundamental tenets of the Sikh Panth.  

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On 12/06/2017 at 11:38 AM, paapiman said:

Thanks for the link bro. Will listen to it soon. Share anything you find interesting from it please.

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On 6/12/2017 at 3:38 AM, paapiman said:

Please listen to Gyani Inderjeet Singh jee Raqbewale providing information on Sri Sarabloh Granth Sahib jee.

@chatanga1 - The original Granth was in Sanskirt.

Please start listening after 15:45 min:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Sant_Giani_Inderjeet_Singh_(Raqbe_wale)/Sri_Gurpartap_Sooraj_Parkash_Katha/05_Sri_Guru_Arjan_Dev_Ji/Giani.Inderjeet.Singh.(Raqbe.wale)--Sooraj.Parkash.Katha.-.Ras.02.Adhyai.34.-.Santokhsar.Vicho.Jogi.Nikliya.-.1994-07-23.mp3

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Interesting views from the Traditional School of Thought. 

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  • 3 weeks later...

I'll take a proper look in the next few days.  Interesting that it is a re-translation of the dasam skandh that is also to be found in the Dasam Granth. Good stuff for comparative analysis.

The invocation is unique from what i've seen in Dasam Granth. The "...ya nam[ah]" ending is often found in 18th century Nirmala and Udasi writings - ie. Sri Ganeshya Nam[ah]" .. I dont think this manglacharan can be found in Dasam Granth.

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I think it has to do with what scholars of today call "Kavi maryada" - it was normal in higher literature at the time to invoke your primary nirgun isht and focal point (Akaal Purakh) hereafter followed by the Sargun saroops (one or more) then down to your own gurdev/Vidiya Guru. You can see Kavi Santokh Singh doing the same .. He starts with Oankaar, then Sarasvati, then the Gurus, then Guru Gobind Singh, then Guru ji's talwaar and finally Giani Sant Singh who he learned from. Pandit Gulab Singh has a similiar approach just another order: Akaal Purakh, Ram Chander, Guru Nanak, Guru Gobind Singh and finally Pandit Maan Singh,.


 

Edited by amardeep
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In terms of manglacharans in Sikh literature, there was no standard per se apart from Ik Oankaar. What comes after the Ik Oankaar is always diverse. The hukamnamas of Mata Sundri and Mata Sahib Devi often has invocations like Ik Oankaar Guru Guru. Banda Singh Bahadur's was Ik Oankaar Fateh Darshan. Dasam Granth has Ik Oankaar Satgur Prasaad or Ik Oankaar Sri Vahiguru ji ki fateh. Guru Granth Sahib has Ik oankaar Satgur Praasaad but also some others variations.. Some of the kavis of Guru Gobind Singh had "Oam" which marks the author as a non-Sikh. There was no standard apart from Ik Oankaar untill at least the late 1700s when the Vahiguru ji ki Fateh becomes prominent. But alongside this you still have the "...ya namah" that continues in the samprdayas.


The constant and fixed beginning of Ik Oankaar is very vital, as it means that the prime isht and focal point for these various writers is Akaal Purakh. Not some minor God.

Edited by amardeep
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It's a grammatical form of the root "karaa" ie to do something. To perform or do something. Like Karta Purakh is the performer/doer. I read it as the power/essence behind the physical deed of performing an action. The namaskaar before hand is to the talwaar that symbolises power/shakti - so this namaskaar is to the force behind the talwaar.

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So in essence:

One Oankaar, The Victory of Vahiguru

One Oankaar, [may] the Sword assist me

One Oankaar, I kneel before the Power [behind the sword]

One Oankaar, I kneel before Krishna

Now begins the vernacular translation of the tenth chapter of the Bhagavat Purana, By your power O' Shiva.

 

The above manglacharan mixes different Indic theologies into one philosophy. It would be like writing a Abrahamic text that invokes Allah, Jehova, Jesus etc in one go!. Contradictory for some, unity for others.

The first line invokes the followers of Akaal Purakh (Sikhs)

The second line invokes the Goddess Shakti worshippers

The third like invokes the Brahma worshippers (Kara refers to creator ie brahma)

The fourth line invokes the Vaishnavas

The fifth line invokes the Shivaites

The last three are the trimurti.

 

Edited by amardeep
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If you listen to the katha of Rababis you'll see they also sometimes do something similiar of mixing diversity to present unity.

Ik oankaar Allah

Satnam Allah

Karta Purakh Allah

Nirbhau Allah

etc etc.

 

Kavi Santokh Singh has a manglacharan similiar that goes something like:
 

Ik Nanak

Oankaar Angad

Karta Amardas

Purakh Ram Dass

Nirbhau Arjan

Nirvair Har Gobind

Akaal Moraat Har Rai

Ajuni Har Krishan

Saibhang Tegh Bahadur

Gur Prasaad Gobind Singh

 

Diffent guru bodies, same spirit. One.

 

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This kind of mixed theology is also seen in the Japji sahib.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ  

गुरु ईसरु गुरु गोरखु बरमा गुरु पारबती माई ॥  

Gur īsar gur gorakẖ barmā gur pārbaṯī mā▫ī.  

The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.  

ਗੁਰੂ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਹੀ (ਈਸਰੁ) ਸਿਵਜੀ ਹੂਏ ਹੈਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ (ਗੋਰਖੁ) ਬਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਹੂਏ ਹੈਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ (ਬਰਮਾ) ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਜੀ ਹੂਏ ਹੈਂ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਧਾਰਨ ਕਰਕੇ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਜੀ (ਮਾ) ਲੱਛਮੀ ਜੀ (ਈ) ਸੁਰਸਤੀ ਜੀ ਹੂਈ ਹੈ ਵਾ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੀ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵ ਰੂਪ ਹੈਂ ਈਸਰ ਕਾ ਗੁਨੁ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਸਿੱਖੋਂ ਕਾ ਅਗ੍ਯਾਨੁ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਸੁਭ ਗੁਣੋਂ ਕੀ ਪਾਲਣਾ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਕਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਆਦਿ ਗੁਨ ਉਤਪੰਨ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਇਸੀ ਭਾਂਤ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਕਾ ਗੁਣ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਅਵਗੁਣੋਂ ਕਾ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਲੱਛਮੀ ਕਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਧਾਰਕਰ ਦੈਵੀ ਸੰਪਦਾ ਕੇ ਗੁਣੋ ਕਾ ਦਾਤਾ ਹੈਂ ਸੁਰੱਸ੍ਵਤੀ ਕਾ ਗੁਣੁ ਧਾਰ ਕਰ ਬਾਣੀ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਕਾਸੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਹੈਂ॥ ਪ੍ਰਸ਼ਨ: ਐਸੇ ਗੁਰੋਂ ਕੀ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਔਰ ਭੀ ਕਹੀਏ॥ ਉੱਤਰ:

Edited by amardeep
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2 hours ago, amardeep said:

Kavi Santokh Singh has a manglacharan similiar that goes something like:
 

Ik Nanak

Oankaar Angad

Karta Amardas

Purakh Ram Dass

Nirbhau Arjan

Nirvair Har Gobind

Akaal Moraat Har Rai

Ajuni Har Krishan

Saibhang Tegh Bahadur

Gur Prasaad Gobind Singh

 

Diffent guru bodies, same spirit. One.

 

What about Satnaam?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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