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chatanga1

Five villages for peace and prosperity

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I have been watching Mahabharat again recently and came to the part where Lord Krishna becomes a peace envoy for the Pandavs and asks King Dhritrashtr for the Pandavs kingdom to be returned. Naturally Durodhyan objects, and Krishan then offers plan B, where he says the 5 Pandavs would be content with 5 villages only. Duroyodhhna replies that he wount give even a pin-prick of land to them, and then war starts and there is immense loss on both sides.

 

When watching this it reminded me of the current situation in Kashmir, and how the indian govt is pouring so much of its money into holding onto Kashmir by force. Wouldn't it be better to let Kashmir go, if they really want to be free and concentrate on those people who actuallu want to live in india as indians? So many people dying of poverty could be helped.

 

Isn't the indian govt just as stubborn as Durodhyan and making the same mistake ?

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26 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

When watching this it reminded me of the current situation in Kashmir, and how the indian govt is pouring so much of its money into holding onto Kashmir by force. Wouldn't it be better to let Kashmir go, if they really want to be free and concentrate on those people who actuallu want to live in india as indians? So many people dying of poverty could be helped.

 

Isn't the indian govt just as stubborn as Durodhyan and making the same mistake ?

Excellent point. So much resources being wasted on a small piece of land.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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It's a scenario that is being repeated all over the world, and has been for centuries. But in India, the region where the Gita and Mahabharat were born, you wonder why the people ruling make the same mistakes over and over.

 

So much trouble in the world over land, from families, to tribes, to religions. It seems that Duruyodhan is being born over and over.

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5 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

I have been watching Mahabharat again recently and came to the part where Lord Krishna becomes a peace envoy for the Pandavs and asks King Dhritrashtr for the Pandavs kingdom to be returned. Naturally Durodhyan objects, and Krishan then offers plan B, where he says the 5 Pandavs would be content with 5 villages only. Duroyodhhna replies that he wount give even a pin-prick of land to them, and then war starts and there is immense loss on both sides.

 

When watching this it reminded me of the current situation in Kashmir, and how the indian govt is pouring so much of its money into holding onto Kashmir by force. Wouldn't it be better to let Kashmir go, if they really want to be free and concentrate on those people who actuallu want to live in india as indians? So many people dying of poverty could be helped.

 

Isn't the indian govt just as stubborn as Durodhyan and making the same mistake ?

Bro remember one thing, this is not going to be limited to Kashmir ..they the sulleh are well planned ..they will boom populations with time and then state after state will fall in their hands . Look what they are doing to Europe.

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They may have a plan., but you have to accept that they (Kahsmiris) are the inhabitants of that land. that they have changed religion doesn't mean they don't belong there. How long will you hold a majority against their will for political purposes?

If we go by the Mahabharata the indian govt is committing adharam. Rulers have a duty to serve the citizens, but here (as in other places of india) the rulers are more of the duroyodhan (and aurangzeb) type.

The govt should idealy hold a referundum for the kashmiris, and give them that area of land that their votes determine. Jammu need not be given. It could be given on the condition that pakistan also cedes it control over kashmir, and kashmir be allowed to be a fully independent country. india needs to wake up to the reality that a disgruntled populace do the country more harm than is imagined. Release the rope and little and get a lot more in return.

 

Concerning the other states, they have muslim minorities so i cant see them becoming any kind if majority there in the next 100 years. And even then they wouldnt have the murky history that kashmir has had since 1947. Nor Panjab for that matter,  but it has to be accepted that the demand for Khalistan does not have the support it once had, and generally the support for Khalistan at this moment in time is weak.

 

Khalistan movement lasted around 12 years, Kashmir movement has been going for around 28 years. North-east secession has been on since 1947. World powers or pretenders to wolrd power cannot have these kind of internal chaos if they wish to progress.

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On 5/4/2017 at 8:02 PM, chatanga1 said:

They may have a plan., but you have to accept that they (Kahsmiris) are the inhabitants of that land. that they have changed religion doesn't mean they don't belong there. How long will you hold a majority against their will for political purposes?

If we go by the Mahabharata the indian govt is committing adharam. Rulers have a duty to serve the citizens, but here (as in other places of india) the rulers are more of the duroyodhan (and aurangzeb) type.

The govt should idealy hold a referundum for the kashmiris, and give them that area of land that their votes determine. Jammu need not be given. It could be given on the condition that pakistan also cedes it control over kashmir, and kashmir be allowed to be a fully independent country. india needs to wake up to the reality that a disgruntled populace do the country more harm than is imagined. Release the rope and little and get a lot more in return.

 

Concerning the other states, they have muslim minorities so i cant see them becoming any kind if majority there in the next 100 years. And even then they wouldnt have the murky history that kashmir has had since 1947. Nor Panjab for that matter,  but it has to be accepted that the demand for Khalistan does not have the support it once had, and generally the support for Khalistan at this moment in time is weak.

 

Khalistan movement lasted around 12 years, Kashmir movement has been going for around 28 years. North-east secession has been on since 1947. World powers or pretenders to wolrd power cannot have these kind of internal chaos if they wish to progress.

Before militancy they were one of the prosperous states in India and were living a good life . They themselves have made their own lives hell. The best way to destroy their culture is giving them independence . There are different voices, one group wants complete freedom from both India and Pakistan and another wants to accede to Pakistan. Islam and Kashmiriyat are not the same sides of a coin . They have been convinced that Islamic rule will improve their lives. It is quite contrary to the fact . There is barely any islamic ruled country which is living in peace . 

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3 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Before militancy they were one of the prosperous states in India and were living a good life .

They weren't prosperous, but just had a better standard of living compared to other indian states.

 

3 hours ago, jaikaara said:

They themselves have made their own lives hell.

It's their prerogative. you can't be everyone's mother. The british could say the same thing for india and pakistan and numerous other countries they invaded and then set free. Does that mean we should get the brits ruling india again?

 

3 hours ago, jaikaara said:

The best way to destroy their culture is giving them independence

It's their choice what they want to do. it's pretty ironic that you think this. if it would destroy them why not give it to them, let them destroy themselves and then take over again?

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As in the case of Duroyadhan, giving a little would yield so much more. Remember India (rightly) helped the bengalis separate from Pakistan, but still does what the pakis did in Bengal to the Kashmiris and other minorities in India, when they ask for the same thing.

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4 hours ago, jaikaara said:

There is barely any islamic ruled country which is living in peace . 

That's not true bro. Countries like Qatar, Bahrain, Kuwait, Dubai, etc. are relatively peaceful and rich/prosperous too.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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15 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

They weren't prosperous, but just had a better standard of living compared to other indian states.

 

It's their prerogative. you can't be everyone's mother. The british could say the same thing for india and pakistan and numerous other countries they invaded and then set free. Does that mean we should get the brits ruling india again?

 

It's their choice what they want to do. it's pretty ironic that you think this. if it would destroy them why not give it to them, let them destroy themselves and then take over again?

Based on a foreign religion's concept they are asking for a separate country which is part of this country. Unfortunately there is no other choice but to suppress

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10 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Based on a foreign religion's concept they are asking for a separate country which is part of this country. Unfortunately there is no other choice but to suppress

You know, you sound just like Duroyadhan saying that. Everybody has the freedom to choose their religion. Add to that the pretence of india being the world's largest democracy, you can see that these people ruling india have clearly forgotten the teachings and guidance of Mahabharat.

And this country continues to use suppression where it should be using intellect. So what if kashmir goes? Already a part of this made up country called india has lost territory called pakistan and Bangladesh. So what if a little more goes, at least those left can eat properly.

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On 5/7/2017 at 2:18 AM, chatanga1 said:

You know, you sound just like Duroyadhan saying that. Everybody has the freedom to choose their religion. Add to that the pretence of india being the world's largest democracy, you can see that these people ruling india have clearly forgotten the teachings and guidance of Mahabharat.

And this country continues to use suppression where it should be using intellect. So what if kashmir goes? Already a part of this made up country called india has lost territory called pakistan and Bangladesh. So what if a little more goes, at least those left can eat properly.

Well then you should be generous to donate 'Punjab' as it is you dont live on Indian territory . Why is that in the ardas there is mention of Panja Sahib, Nanakana Sahib ? Why dont you convince them to change this post partition addition to the ardas ? 

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2 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Well then you should be generous to donate 'Punjab' as it is you dont live on Indian territory . Why is that in the ardas there is mention of Panja Sahib, Nanakana Sahib ? Why dont you convince them to change this post partition addition to the ardas ? 

 

Panjab can only be "donated" to the Panjabis. The ardas for Sri Nankana Sahib is for sewa sambhal of those holy shrines. Not to take those territories (West Panjab) into our control again. The Sikhs messed up in 1947, but that doesn't mean we can blame everyone else. The culture of blame seems to be a big part of indian psyche.

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1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

 

Panjab can only be "donated" to the Panjabis. The ardas for Sri Nankana Sahib is for sewa sambhal of those holy shrines. Not to take those territories (West Panjab) into our control again. The Sikhs messed up in 1947, but that doesn't mean we can blame everyone else. The culture of blame seems to be a big part of indian psyche.

You have named it Punjab otherwise someone can name it something different too. It is not about blame, if you cannot leave what you love then why do you expect someone else to do that. Tomorrow in Punjab  if the Bihari migrant numbers increase and they decide to throw out Sikhs like what was done with Kashmiri Pundits then what would you want to do ? India should do this ..and do that ..and what would people like you do ? Live a comfortable life in western countries and expect everything to be done by everyone else . 
 

I thought looking at your posts that your mindset had matured and all that hatred had diminished. That doesn't seem to be the case though...its futile to explain and discuss anything. 

 

Thanks for nothing. 

 

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22 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Tomorrow in Punjab  if the Bihari migrant numbers increase and they decide to throw out Sikhs

That is a different case scenario. The Kashmiris did not come from a different place. they come from kashmir.

 

22 hours ago, jaikaara said:

like what was done with Kashmiri Pundits then what would you want to do ?

 

Even the kashmiri groups now recognise that it was a foolish move to target hindus, and they repent that.

 

22 hours ago, jaikaara said:

India should do this ..and do that ..and what would people like you do ?

 

India has an obligation to it's people, for their survival amongst others. The indian govt has got itself embroiled into a silly conflict on which it spends so much while its true patriots die in their thousands from hunger. Do you not see the irony?

 

People like me would watch Mahabharat and wonder why the indian govt is so anti-Krishna/Yudhistra. And then remind others that they need not be like Duroyodhan.

 

22 hours ago, jaikaara said:

Live a comfortable life in western countries and expect everything to be done by everyone else . 

 

The politicians live a very comfortable life in new delhi, whilst other peoples sons take the risks in fighting a useless war. Why dont the policy makers go and fight? Why are the new delhi wale expecting everything to be done by others?

 

22 hours ago, jaikaara said:

I thought looking at your posts that your mindset had matured and all that hatred had diminished.

 

Im laughing and crying at this. Watch mahabharat. Decide who was righteous and who wasn't and which side you see yourself on.

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20 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

That is a different case scenario. The Kashmiris did not come from a different place. they come from kashmir.

the tyranny is the same act whether done by insider or outsider. 

 

Even the kashmiri groups now recognise that it was a foolish move to target hindus, and they repent that.

Really? And they told you that ?

India has an obligation to it's people, for their survival amongst others. The indian govt has got itself embroiled into a silly conflict on which it spends so much while its true patriots die in their thousands from hunger. Do you not see the irony?

People have an obligation too, if you think it is so silly have a big heart and donate your in Punjab to the kashmiris 

People like me would watch Mahabharat and wonder why the indian govt is so anti-Krishna/Yudhistra. And then remind others that they need not be like Duroyodhan.

What a comparison ! Grow up man.

 

The politicians live a very comfortable life in new delhi, whilst other peoples sons take the risks in fighting a useless war. Why dont the policy makers go and fight? Why are the new delhi wale expecting everything to be done by others?

it is a system, it is running the country as a whole nation. there are groups within the U.K. and U.S.  too wanting some territory as a separate land, try preaching this stupid logic to them and see what answers you get. 

 

Im laughing and crying at this. Watch mahabharat. Decide who was righteous and who wasn't and which side you see yourself on.

Please dont waste your time watching, since what you learnt in the end in your way is crap!

 

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On 5/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, jaikaara said:

the tyranny is the same act whether done by insider or outsider. 

Why should there be any tyranny in the first place? The world's largest democracy ? The people of Kashmir have for 67 long years resented that they are part of india. Why force them to be part of it? Why no concentrate on those that actually want to be part of India? Are Indians outsiders in Kashmir or insiders?

 

On 5/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, jaikaara said:

Really? And they told you that ?

 

The militant groups have made overtures to the non-muslims not to leave Kashmir, and to facilitate the return of those that did. I have read interviews where these groups have realised the mistake they made and repented for having targeted the Hindus in the firstplace. So, yes they have told me that.

 

On 5/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, jaikaara said:

People have an obligation too, if you think it is so silly have a big heart and donate your in Punjab to the kashmiris 

Why should we donate Panjab to the Kashmiris? Why not just donate Kashmir to the Kashmiris, as it is their homeland? Afterall india  could fight the pakis over bangladesh for the same rights of those bengali citizens.

 

On 5/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, jaikaara said:

What a comparison ! Grow up man.

So you think that we should not compare dharma-adharma in life anymore?

 

On 5/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, jaikaara said:

it is a system, it is running the country as a whole nation. there are groups within the U.K. and U.S.  too wanting some territory as a separate land, try preaching this stupid logic to them and see what answers you get. 

 

Yes, lets look at the UK where I live. The irish, welsh and scottish people all have devolved parliaments. They make up a lot of their own laws, some have their own currency, and Scotland has even had the referendum on it's future. If it wants to secede from the UK, it will have the option to do so.

What stupid answers or stupid logic do you see in this?

 

Wht great answers and great logic do you see in killing people in false police encounters and torture?

 

On 5/10/2017 at 12:22 PM, jaikaara said:

Please dont waste your time watching, since what you learnt in the end in your way is crap!

 

If you are telling me you watched mahabharat and you still beleive in killing citizens of a state for wanting to control their own destiny, then what can I say? As I said earlier, Duryodhan is being born over and over.

 

The world would be a much better place to live in, if humans groups didn't try and control one another. We have seen the mess the moghals made of india when they subjugated it, but you would think that india would learn a lesson from it and not try to repeat the same mistakes. Duryodhan and hastinapur would have had better brighter futures if they gave up 5 villages for peace. So would the whole world.

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11 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Why should there be any tyranny in the first place? The world's largest democracy ? The people of Kashmir have for 67 long years resented that they are part of india. Why force them to be part of it? Why no concentrate on those that actually want to be part of India? Are Indians outsiders in Kashmir or insiders?

 

 

The militant groups have made overtures to the non-muslims not to leave Kashmir, and to facilitate the return of those that did. I have read interviews where these groups have realised the mistake they made and repented for having targeted the Hindus in the firstplace. So, yes they have told me that.

 

Why should we donate Panjab to the Kashmiris? Why not just donate Kashmir to the Kashmiris, as it is their homeland? Afterall india  could fight the pakis over bangladesh for the same rights of those bengali citizens.

 

So you think that we should not compare dharma-adharma in life anymore?

 

 

Yes, lets look at the UK where I live. The irish, welsh and scottish people all have devolved parliaments. They make up a lot of their own laws, some have their own currency, and Scotland has even had the referendum on it's future. If it wants to secede from the UK, it will have the option to do so.

What stupid answers or stupid logic do you see in this?

 

Wht great answers and great logic do you see in killing people in false police encounters and torture?

 

 

If you are telling me you watched mahabharat and you still beleive in killing citizens of a state for wanting to control their own destiny, then what can I say? As I said earlier, Duryodhan is being over and over.

 

The world would be a much better place to live in, if humans groups didn't try and control one another. We have seen the mess the moghals made of india when they subjugated it, but you would think that india would learn a lesson from it and not try to repeat the same mistakes. Duryodhan and hastinapur would have had better brighter futures if they gave up 5 villages for peace. So would the whole world.

Your whole concept is of a personal level and when you live in a Nation you just cannot change things the way you want to. Be it anywhere and everywhere. Tomorrow you might want to argue with the govt where you are. You are not physically here and the way you see things, i am afraid you can never be a part of any system. 

Besides all these differences i still see you as a brother and know that just as you have changed with time, time will bring in more changes . 

 

Akaal Bless you. We agree to disagree but wont waste pages in argument. 

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1 hour ago, jaikaara said:

Your whole concept is of a personal level and when you live in a Nation you just cannot change things the way you want to.

You are wrong here. This is not a personal level concept. It is more to do with Dharma and this world we live in. Who makes nations? What qualifies as a nation? What right does any nation have to subjugate or decimate another nation?

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26 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

You are wrong here. This is not a personal level concept. It is more to do with Dharma and this world we live in. Who makes nations? What qualifies as a nation? What right does any nation have to subjugate or decimate another nation?

The way you are analyzing is not how a Statesman will do . A Nation will no longer be a nation if it keeps swaying according to people's whims and influenced ideas. Even in a house rebellions are crushed . Remember yourself as a teenager and if there ever was a time when the whole house was against you and even then they didn't want you to separate. 

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On 15/05/2017 at 1:32 PM, jaikaara said:

The way you are analyzing is not how a Statesman will do

 

I don't want to analyze as a statesman. i want to analyse as an "atma" through the lense of dharma. Dhritrashtra was a statesman. Krishna was dharma. Who would you choose?

 

On 15/05/2017 at 1:32 PM, jaikaara said:

A Nation will no longer be a nation if it keeps swaying according to people's whims and influenced ideas.

Exactly, let's forget people's whims and ideas and embrace dharma.

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14 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

 

I don't want to analyze as a statesman. i want to analyse as an "atma" through the lense of dharma. Dhritrashtra was a statesman. Krishna was dharma. Who would you choose?

 

Exactly, let's forget people's whims and ideas and embrace dharma.

Dhristrashtra was never a Statesman , i do not know where did you get that from.

When a Nation is being ruled ..it the Raajdharma which is to be followed . Any tom dick harry will come up with a notion for freedom . A Nation cannot run like that . The integrity and stability of the Nation is the topmost priority .

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On 5/3/2017 at 4:26 PM, chatanga1 said:

I have been watching Mahabharat again recently and came to the part where Lord Krishna becomes a peace envoy for the Pandavs and asks King Dhritrashtr for the Pandavs kingdom to be returned. Naturally Durodhyan objects, and Krishan then offers plan B, where he says the 5 Pandavs would be content with 5 villages only. Duroyodhhna replies that he wount give even a pin-prick of land to them, and then war starts and there is immense loss on both sides.

 

When watching this it reminded me of the current situation in Kashmir, and how the indian govt is pouring so much of its money into holding onto Kashmir by force. Wouldn't it be better to let Kashmir go, if they really want to be free and concentrate on those people who actuallu want to live in india as indians? So many people dying of poverty could be helped.

 

Isn't the indian govt just as stubborn as Durodhyan and making the same mistake ?

That was different issue.Duryodhan actually believed that he has broken agyaatvaas of Pandavas. Giving 5 villages to them means that Duryodhan had to concede that Pandava's successfully completed agyaatvaas .Even though 5 villages were given the war was inevitable as Arjuna Bhima Karna Duryodhana would have come face to face somewhere else

 

As far Kashmir is concerend. iNDIA SHOULD HAD GIVEN kashmir in 50s while retaining jammu and Ladakh.Giving an inch of land now means pieces of India. 

 

The first victim of Kashmir giving will be muslims who will face wrath of Hindu's

Jihadi's will take victory of Kashmir as victory of islam over Kafirs and recruit lakhs

naxals , northeast separatist movements will get boost for independence. possibly Tamilians may also start demand their Tamil nation

the whole India may end up in civil war

 

So both situations are different

Also Duryodhan was not so evil like Aurangzeb , he just hated pandava's and believed that the thrown is his

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1 hour ago, kdsingh80 said:

That was different issue.Duryodhan actually believed that he has broken agyaatvaas of Pandavas. Giving 5 villages to them means that Duryodhan had to concede that Pandava's successfully completed agyaatvaas .Even though 5 villages were given the war was inevitable as Arjuna Bhima Karna Duryodhana would have come face to face somewhere else

 

As far Kashmir is concerend. iNDIA SHOULD HAD GIVEN kashmir in 50s while retaining jammu and Ladakh.Giving an inch of land now means pieces of India. 

 

The first victim of Kashmir giving will be muslims who will face wrath of Hindu's

Jihadi's will take victory of Kashmir as victory of islam over Kafirs and recruit lakhs

naxals , northeast separatist movements will get boost for independence. possibly Tamilians may also start demand their Tamil nation

the whole India may end up in civil war

 

So both situations are different

Also Duryodhan was not so evil like Aurangzeb , he just hated pandava's and believed that the thrown is his

You hit it hard on the right point ! Most NRI brothers live some Utopian dream and find it hard to understand the situation here. Besides this, Sanatan Dharam doesnt have a rule book as to say that just because Yudhisthir did this so one has to follow this ...Nopes...along with time rules change...

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