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paapiman

Sri Charitropakhian Sahib jee Series - Charitar #25

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Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion.

Please forgive me for being explicit.
 
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Bhul chuk maaf

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This charitar obviosly has to do with the prominent concept of royal dynasties and how to continue a dynasty. It was very normal in human history that the females of harem's would plot and plan how to make sure their own sons were to take over power. If you read the story of Hindu and Muslim kings of India and the Middle East this is something that keeps happening again and again.

The way I see it, the story raises a discussion on legitimacy of the throne, - is being the son really all it requires to become a heir to the throne? Human history shows that many were of this belief, - if that is all it takes, then what do you do with all those fraud cases where the person sitting on the throne is not even the real son ? It debunks the whole notion of heirship and sitting on the throne, if it can be manipulated that easily.

According to the Hikayat, a true king is he who has wisdom and justice, - not bloood lines.

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OK, a few thoughts on this.

First the area where the confluence of Ganga and Jamuna is a holy place for Hindus. So the story starts by talking of an exalted place but says that within this place people have the status of animals. So this could be a reference to the Royal Palace of the King, but also telling that some of the dwellers of this palace have a animalistic standing.

 

Seeing as this is a short story Im going to translate it myself. In line 3 it says she contemplated destroying the monarchy but then wants her son to be King? Something seems wrong there, so Im going to have a look at translations.

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15 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Seeing as this is a short story Im going to translate it myself. In line 3 it says she contemplated destroying the monarchy but then wants her son to be King? 

3 seems to be translated right. Below is the Gurbani Tuk.

image.png.1c8d996e7aa667115d70e59001b54e7d.png

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

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Dohra

 

In between the Ganga and Jamuna there was a valley called Kailakhar

here people of this place lived as humans in animal form 1

 

chaupai

 

Then the Minister began to speak

Listen o King who is dear to my life

One story I wish to narrate to you

which will get rid of your pain. 2

 

dohra

The King of Kailakhar had a woman

Who fearing the rule would come to end had this idea in her mind 3

 

Chaupai

 

Prem Kaur was the Queen

Who feared because of the King's old age

In who's abode there was not one son

This worry was always on her mind 4

 

Dohra

 

There was no son in the family and the King had become old

He was unable to perform intercourse and sire offspring 5

 

Chaupai

 

She then created a charade

To stop the Royal Palace slipping out of her hands

I shall get a son from another person

And announce it as the King's own body (ie his son) 6

 

Dohra

 

There was a pregnant woman who she called to her

And let the rumour start that she, the Queen was pregnant 7

 

She gave great wealth to obtain the (womans) son

And announced a son had taken birth in the King's House 8

 

Great wealth was given to singers, poets and musicians

And named him Sher Singh to everyone's approval 9

 

Chaupai

 

After some days the King passed away

And Kingship passed to Sher Singh

O King O King everyone called him

but no-one knew the truth behind it. 10

 

Dohra

 

Under the lines of destiny, a poor person became a King

He was made the King's son and then King by a womans charade. 11

 

Ending

 

 

 

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7 hours ago, paapiman said:

3 seems to be translated right. Below is the Gurbani Tuk.

image.png.1c8d996e7aa667115d70e59001b54e7d.png

 

 

Who fearing the rule would come to end had this idea in her mind 3

 

This is the correct translation of the line.

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OK so form this translation I'm getting some new info.

 

Firstly the setting, the Minister has told here of a setting which should be exalted but which is actually inhabited by people of low intellect. The Queen fears that her old husband is to pass away soon and has no issue. Again here is an old King with a younger Queen. So the Queen plans to obtain a child and pass it off as the King's son purely for the reason that she doesn't wish to lose her status and Queen-ly life. So she plans to obtain a child not for the Kings sake but for her own sake. It surprises me that she is more concerned about the King not having a son more than the King is. In the end no-one suspects anything and the boy does become King.

 

So we see echoes of the Queen fooling the King, the Queen going to desperate measures to achieve what she wants, and in the last line it says " Under the lines of destiny, a poor person became a King ..."

 

Under the lines of destiny. Thats something really powerful to thrown in. It's lost me a little but is the Minister saying here to the King, that this is your destiny for marrying an unsuitable woman?

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1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

Who fearing the rule would come to end had this idea in her mind 3

That makes sense. 

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

O King O King everyone called him

but no-one knew the truth behind it. 10

 

From where did Bhindra (see below) get vile gestures and inferior character into this? You got it right.

image.png.c4e17d7f06eb1eaaf39887ab060abc27.png

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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4 hours ago, amardeep said:

Could it be that she used her useless son to destroy the raj?

Is there any indication in the Charitar which alludes to the destruction of the Raj after that line?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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21 hours ago, amardeep said:

what is the name of the king and minister in the original story? Is there anything in relation to "prem" and "sher" we should be alert of?

image.png.16059cab93dd794b3cdebc6e72223624.png - Name of the king in the original story. Singh means Sher.

I don't think the name of the minster is mentioned.

image.png.6a808574faeb0629098c40f88781e194.png - Name of the queen in the original story.  This could mean:

  • The surprising intellect
  • The spry intellect
  • The Mammonish intellect
  • The unsteady intellect

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 8/2/2017 at 1:01 PM, chatanga1 said:

Who fearing the rule would come to end had this idea in her mind 3

This translation could be right too, i.e "For the destruction of the kingdom, a thought came in her mind". Obviously, she was attempting to somehow save her seat, but her thinking/actions actually led to the destruction of the kingdom.

Below is a possible scenario too.

The Kingdom was destroyed because of her decision of putting an unsuitable candidate on the throne. We could say unsuitable due to the fact that it is mentioned in the Charitar that the people of this area had an animal intellect. We can safely assume that the pregnant lady belonged to their kingdom and had an animal intellect.

This interpretation would tie well with the original story. The wise minister is trying to show the king that the queen's activities (false accusation against the prince, etc) would eventually lead to the destruction of our kingdom. She is being selfish as the queen in this Charitar and both of them are liars. (the original one has falsely accused and this one has faked her pregnancy)

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

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6 hours ago, paapiman said:

This translation could be right too, i.e "For the destruction of the kingdom, a thought came in her mind". Obviously, she was attempting to somehow save her seat, but her thinking/actions actually led to the destruction of the kingdom.

Below is a possible scenario too.

The Kingdom was destroyed because of her decision of putting an unsuitable candidate on the throne. We could say unsuitable due to the fact that it is mentioned in the Charitar that the people of this area had an animal intellect. We can safely assume that the pregnant lady belonged to their kingdom and had an animal intellect.

This interpretation would tie well with the original story. The wise minister is trying to show the king that the queen's activities (false accusation against the prince, etc) would eventually lead to the destruction of our kingdom. She is being selfish as the queen in this Charitar and both of them are liars. (the original one has falsely accused and this one has faked her pregnancy)

 

i think that may be reading too much into possible alternatives. There is nothing in the text to indicate the future of the monarchy so we shouldn't get into that at all.

 

21 hours ago, paapiman said:

Does anyone know what "ਹਨਵੰਤ " means? Hanwant Singh is the name of the son in the original Charitar.

 

Hanwant is another name for Hanuman.

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On 8/2/2017 at 6:20 PM, amardeep said:

You are right, we have to continue linking this charitar back to the main story: What is the minister trying to tell the king by this specific tale.

It is possible that the wise minister, through this Charitar, is trying to teach a lesson to the king. Here the queen has helped a poor unknown child become a King, but you (the original King) have decided to end the life of your own son. She has somehow managed to save the kingdom while you on the other hand, are on the path of destroying your own kingdom. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf 

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On 8/2/2017 at 1:10 PM, chatanga1 said:

Firstly the setting, the Minister has told here of a setting which should be exalted but which is actually inhabited by people of low intellect. The Queen fears that her old husband is to pass away soon and has no issue. Again here is an old King with a younger Queen. So the Queen plans to obtain a child and pass it off as the King's son purely for the reason that she doesn't wish to lose her status and Queen-ly life. So she plans to obtain a child not for the Kings sake but for her own sake. It surprises me that she is more concerned about the King not having a son more than the King is. In the end no-one suspects anything and the boy does become King.

 

So we see echoes of the Queen fooling the King, the Queen going to desperate measures to achieve what she wants, and in the last line it says " Under the lines of destiny, a poor person became a King ..."

 

Under the lines of destiny. Thats something really powerful to thrown in. It's lost me a little but is the Minister saying here to the King, that this is your destiny for marrying an unsuitable woman?

Another possible Interpretation:

It is mentioned in the Charitar that the people of this area had an animal intellect, i.e. this area was inhabited by uncivilized people. The queen realized that if there was no heir to the throne, then there will be anarchy in the kingdom after the death of the king. Furthermore, such a kingdom could easily be overthrown by powerful neighboring kings. Therefore, in order to save the kingdom from destruction, the queen plays this Charitar, thereby becoming a protagonist.

This could relate to the original Charitar as well. It would be a wake up call to Chitar Singh (original King), by showing him how this queen saved the kingdom using politics (dirty in this case), while you seem not to care about the future of your kingdom. This queen realized the weakness (inability to procreate) of her husband and took appropriate steps to save the kingdom. But, you are unable to see the true nature of your wife.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

 

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On August 3, 2017 at 3:24 PM, paapiman said:

Does anyone know what "ਹਨਵੰਤ " means? Hanwant Singh is the name of the son in the original Charitar.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

hunr  hunar is like ability or kala (sarab kala samrath)      
maybe hanvant is full of ability   kulvant patvant vant being full of or not lacking. 
not lacking HAN ... han being ability or power? 
bhul chuak muaff

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On 02/08/2017 at 7:40 PM, paapiman said:

 

From where did Bhindra (see below) get vile gestures and inferior character into this? You got it right.

image.png.c4e17d7f06eb1eaaf39887ab060abc27.png

 

God knows. But it's way off. You know we have been analyzing the Charitars on the basis of our understanding of the english translation of them far too much. It was my suspicion about line 3 not making sense that sparked my wanting to have a look at translating it myself. Maybe we could start doing this as a group in future Charitars ?

 

 

23 hours ago, paapiman said:

It is possible that the wise minister, through this Charitar, is trying to teach a lesson to the king. Here the queen has helped a poor unknown child become a King, but you (the original King) have decided to end the life of your own son. She has somehow managed to save the kingdom while you on the other hand, are on the path of destroying your own kingdom.

 

5 hours ago, paapiman said:

Another possible Interpretation:

It is mentioned in the Charitar that the people of this area had an animal intellect, i.e. this area was inhabited by uncivilized people. The queen realized that if there was no heir to the throne, then there will be anarchy in the kingdom after the death of the king. Furthermore, such a kingdom could easily be overthrown by powerful neighboring kings. Therefore, in order to save the kingdom from destruction, the queen plays this Charitar, thereby becoming a protagonist.

This could relate to the original Charitar as well. It would be a wake up call to Chitar Singh (original King), by showing him how this queen saved the kingdom using politics (dirty in this case), while you seem not to care about the future of your kingdom. This queen realized the weakness (inability to procreate) of her husband and took appropriate steps to save the kingdom. But, you are unable to see the true nature of your wife.

 

Good thinking bro. The more I look at it, I can't really find fault with the woman. She needed the dynasty to continue and went to lengths where everybody was happy and the dynasty continued. I can't help but think she isn't a villian in this story.

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1 hour ago, dilavrsingh said:

hunr  hunar is like ability or kala (sarab kala samrath)      
maybe hanvant is full of ability   kulvant patvant vant being full of or not lacking. 
not lacking HAN ... han being ability or power? 
bhul chuak muaff

Thanks bro for the info. Is it possible to relate the two words "Chitarmati" and "Prem Kumari"?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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54 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

God knows. But it's way off. You know we have been analyzing the Charitars on the basis of our understanding of the english translation of them far too much.

You are right paaji. We cannot depend too much on the English translations.

There might be an Anthriv Arth to this Charitar too. Maybe you or some other Singh can help me more on this.

One possible interpretation:

According to Gurbani, ਪੁੱਤਰ refers to Brahamgyan. The ਬੁਧੀ (represented by Queen) has played a Charitar with the soul. She was unable to procreate Brahamgyan with Waheguru (rep. by the King) , so she decided to adopt a child (ਅਗਿਆਨ) to live comfortably and enjoy the pleasures of this world.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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