dilavrsingh Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 3 hours ago, paapiman said: Thanks bro for the info. Is it possible to relate the two words "Chitarmati" and "Prem Kumari"? Bhul chuk maaf basically it could be he is able to do many things is potent, able. in contrast to the womens name being mother of chi tar's and queen of love.. just he's young and able but that does not necessarily mean he is wise to the womanly chittars and may fall susceptible 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 6, 2017 Report Share Posted August 6, 2017 On 4/8/2017 at 11:52 PM, paapiman said: It is possible that the wise minister, through this Charitar, is trying to teach a lesson to the king. Here the queen has helped a poor unknown child become a King, but you (the original King) have decided to end the life of your own son. She has somehow managed to save the kingdom while you on the other hand, are on the path of destroying your own kingdom. Bhul chuk maaf Interesting. Well spotted! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 10, 2017 Report Share Posted August 10, 2017 @paapiman Do you want to discuss the 22,23 and 24 Charitars? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 12, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2017 On 8/10/2017 at 4:42 PM, chatanga1 said: @paapiman Do you want to discuss the 22,23 and 24 Charitars? Charitar#22 is too long. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 12, 2017 Report Share Posted August 12, 2017 Let's try and analyze it regardles of length. It's also interesting if it happens to be the longest charitar so far... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 Yes lets have a look at 22. These Charitars are supposed to have some kind of background as to why Guru Sahib wrote this text in the first place according to Pyara Singh Padam. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 Pyara Singh probably leans on the Chaupa Singh rahitnama that says that the Guru wrote the charitars due to Anoop Kaur trying to seduce Him. There has been lot of fuss about the 22-24th charitars, - let's look at the text and see what it actually states. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 13, 2017 Report Share Posted August 13, 2017 " In S.1748 (1691 AD) a Sarin Khatrani, Rup Kaur, came with the members of the Lahore sangat to attend the annual Baisakhi fair. She tried to deceive the Guru in a most grievous manner, but was unable to do so. It was because of her deceit that the Charitra [Charitro Pakhyan] were composed. The work was completed on the eight day of the dark hald of Bhadon S.1753 " Chaupa Singh Rahitnama 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted August 14, 2017 Report Share Posted August 14, 2017 Yeah, Amardeep that's what I read. Now personally I dont believe it went to the length detailed in the Charitars but it provided the necessity for Guru Sahib to write this Granth. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 15, 2017 Report Share Posted August 15, 2017 On 14/8/2017 at 2:21 PM, chatanga1 said: Yeah, Amardeep that's what I read. Now personally I dont believe it went to the length detailed in the Charitars but it provided the necessity for Guru Sahib to write this Granth. A way to widen the discussion is also to see whether the early Sikh historians considered the Anoop Kaur charitar as factual history or not.. .Ie. is the story mentioned in the Bansavalinama, Gurbilas writings or Suraj Prakash Granth. If the chaitar is not mentioned it is clear that these authors did not consider it as a factual historical event involving the Guru. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted August 16, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 6 hours ago, amardeep said: A way to widen the discussion is also to see whether the early Sikh historians considered the Anoop Kaur charitar as factual history or not.. .Ie. is the story mentioned in the Bansavalinama, Gurbilas writings or Suraj Prakash Granth. If the chaitar is not mentioned it is clear that these authors did not consider it as a factual historical event involving the Guru. It is also possible that this Charitar took place before Guru-kaal. There are other places with the name Anandpur in India. Anandpur was a former princely state in Gujarat too. Furthermore, the name Kaur (or a version of it) was probably in use before 1699. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted August 16, 2017 Report Share Posted August 16, 2017 Cool. See if you can post thej charitar and we Will analyze 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 18, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 18, 2017 According to Katha, Chitarmati wants her own future son to become the next king. We also know that Chitar Singh is either old or middle aged. It is very much possible that he won't be able to procreate in the future (like the king in this Charitar). Maybe the wise minister (through this tale) is trying to tell Chitar Singh that Chitarmati wants her own son to become the next king. If you kill your son (who is 100% your blood), it is likely that one of your queens (including Chitarmati) might play a similar Charitar with you (given the fact that you are getting old) in the future. They could possibly adopt a young baby (or cheat and procreate one) and claim it to be yours. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 On 18/10/2017 at 4:48 AM, paapiman said: Maybe the wise minister (through this tale) is trying to tell Chitar Singh that Chitarmati wants her own son to become the next king. I think thats reading a little too much into the future with the story. It adds another unclear angle to the story. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, chatanga1 said: I think thats reading a little too much into the future with the story. It adds another unclear angle to the story. Daas understands your point, but this idea that Chitarmati wants her own son to become the next king was mentioned in katha by Gyani Harbhajan Singh jee Dhudikey (Taksali Vidhwan). It is very much possible that this idea was passed down by oral traditions from the time of Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 19, 2017 Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 4 hours ago, paapiman said: Daas understands your point, but this idea that Chitarmati wants her own son to become the next king was mentioned in katha by Gyani Harbhajan Singh jee Dhudikey (Taksali Vidhwan). It is very much possible that this idea was passed down by oral traditions from the time of Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). Bhul chuk maaf So it does'nt say anywhere in the text that she wants her son to be king? Interesting. Maybe it comes up much later in the text as the charitars goes along 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 19, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2017 1 hour ago, amardeep said: So it does'nt say anywhere in the text that she wants her son to be king? Interesting. Maybe it comes up much later in the text as the charitars goes along It is not mentioned in the English translation of the second Charitar. So, we have two possibilities: First, as you said, it might come later in the Gurbani. Second, there might be hint in the second Charitar itself which alludes to it, but the English translation has failed to pick. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 On 05/08/2017 at 10:48 PM, chatanga1 said: Good thinking bro. The more I look at it, I can't really find fault with the woman. She needed the dynasty to continue and went to lengths where everybody was happy and the dynasty continued. I can't help but think she isn't a villian in this story. This could also be taken the other way round as well. The minister is telling the King that the Queen was capable of keeping the raaj existing, and she is also capale of destroying that same raaj as well if she desires. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 On 8/2/2017 at 4:52 PM, chatanga1 said: No there is no mention of that. But this is also a charitar where there is an absence of details of sexual activity between characters. Prem Kumari turned out to be an ethical woman. She could have indulged in sexual pleasures with other men, get pregnant and claim that the child is of the king's. But, she behaved in a moral manner and prevented the destruction of her kingdom. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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