Dhadrianwala Vs Great Sikhs

[paapiman]

On 11/22/2017 at 1:56 PM, Soulfinder said:

Listen to this at 10:00 onwards he is now challenging bhog maryda for langar parshad. How can anyone accept this ?

 

Please listen to the reply by Jaswinder Singh jee:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Soulfinder]

13 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Please listen to the reply by Jaswinder Singh jee:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Thanks veer ji for posting and replying.

[angy15]

Whatever  discussion/ arguments we are discussing .The conclusion I would like to drive. 

- Its not Dhadrianwala Vs Great Sikhs but Dhandrianwala  Vs Taksal 

-There are different authors of Sikhs History .But some of them want others to stick to their narratives   .The solution is to Standardize the historical text. I read an article where Bhai Harnam Singh Dhumma says Rehat Marayda of Akal Takht is just a draft its not final  .So if consensus is not built on marayda  differences is bound to arise.

- As mentioned earlier there are two school of thoughts emerging

  1. Sampardias based on traditional interpretation.

   2. Sikh Missionary   based on Prof Sahib Singh and other modern scholars.

Both cannot claim that their narrative is the most accurate.ਜੋ ਸ਼ਬਦ /ਵਿਚਾਰ ਗੁਰੂ 'ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ' ਜੀ ਦੀ ਕਸਵੱਟੀ 'ਤੇ ਪੂਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਤਰਦੀ, ਉਹ ਸਾਡੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਸਵਾਹ ਹੈ.

ਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥

A tweet from Bibi  Kiranjot   has a message that "You cannot force us to see Sikhi the way you do".

 

 

[angy15]

A common message to all the followers with   different  ideologies from Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa:

[angy15]

Some Popular Rituals  in Shri Hazoor Sahib Nanded .Are these Gurmat mariyada .How does Bhai Jaswinder Singh USA or any other would like to explain whats going on.

 

[angy15]

12 hours ago, paapiman said:

Please listen to the reply by Jaswinder Singh jee:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

These Rebuttals and Replies  is like Bhai Jaswinder Singh  believe that a coconut tree is God and Bhai Ranjit Singh  believe a stone is God,both of them may be fine with each other today. But tomorrow when Bhai Ranjit Singh want to cut that coconut tree for some reason, both of them  will fight. It is ones man belief against other and  clash is bound to happen.Gurbani is just a coverup . Sri Guru Granth Sahib is a universal teacher and not for the Sikhs alone.Whatever Guru Nanak said his followers will paint what suits them and drawing own conclusions .

Sadly we are back to same time which was  before Nanak

[paapiman]

12 hours ago, angy15 said:

Some Popular Rituals  in Shri Hazoor Sahib Nanded .Are these Gurmat mariyada .How does Bhai Jaswinder Singh USA or any other would like to explain whats going on.

There is nothing wrong with those rituals. Jhatka maryada is followed by Nihang samprada. Arthi is also done by Sampradas. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[angy15]

5 hours ago, paapiman said:

There is nothing wrong with those rituals. Jhatka maryada is followed by Nihang samprada. Arthi is also done by Sampradas. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Yes exactly that is the whole controversy  between the two.One school of thought is of the opinion its o.k with  these kind of tradition and they don;t want any controversy on  the tradition .Other school of thought says its a Brahimical concept of Sikhism.Thats why this disagreement.

I take a neutral view in this regard.I always feel Sprituality should always be approached with a open mind .In fact I am currently reading a book "Gurbani Paath Darshan"by Gian Gurbhachan Singh which  is interesting.But at the same time I don't think  Bhai Ranjit Singh is doing any anti Gurmat Vichaar .Taksal might have differences with him so   Akal Takht has to intervene to diffuse the  tension.

Ang Sang Waheguru

 

 

[chatanga1]

On 6/4/2018 at 6:35 AM, angy15 said:

Whatever  discussion/ arguments we are discussing .The conclusion I would like to drive.

 

Why? I asked you some questions on this topic last week, to which you haven't responded. Why are you so eager to draw up your own conclusion?

Let's discuss some things a little further.

 

On 6/4/2018 at 6:35 AM, angy15 said:

 I read an article where Bhai Harnam Singh Dhumma says Rehat Marayda of Akal Takht is just a draft its not final  .

Good start. But let me add a little more to that. Where was Harnam Singh quoting from when he said this? The SGPC's very OWN record of it.

 

On 6/4/2018 at 6:35 AM, angy15 said:

- As mentioned earlier there are two school of thoughts emerging

  1. Sampardias based on traditional interpretation.

   2. Sikh Missionary   based on Prof Sahib Singh and other modern scholars.

I asked you where these two traditions started from? You didn't answer. Maybe you would like to now?

 

On 6/4/2018 at 6:35 AM, angy15 said:

Both cannot claim that their narrative is the most accurate.ਜੋ ਸ਼ਬਦ /ਵਿਚਾਰ ਗੁਰੂ 'ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ' ਜੀ ਦੀ ਕਸਵੱਟੀ 'ਤੇ ਪੂਰੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਉਤਰਦੀ, ਉਹ ਸਾਡੇ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਸਵਾਹ ਹੈ.

ਭਸੈ ਊਪਰਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਹੋਰ ਕਥਨੀ ਬਦਉ ਨ ਸਗਲੀ ਛਾਰੁ ॥

 

Sure. There has to be some sort of accuracy doesn't there? So what if one's narrative is inaccurate? Should we not discuss why?

 

On 6/4/2018 at 6:35 AM, angy15 said:

A tweet from Bibi  Kiranjot   has a message that "You cannot force us to see Sikhi the way you do".

 

I have a  lot of respect for Kiranjot Kaur. But she has not quite grasped the whole situation here. Amrik Chandigarhia does not preach the maryada of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. He does not have any respect or belief in Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib.

Why is it that Amrik Chandigarhia can speak against sarovars, but yet hold his tongue against the heinous act of darshan rogi in starting a new form of khande pahul ceremony?

Why is it that Ranjit Dhadriwala has also held his tongue on this yet been very vocal on other matters of less consequence? darshan rogi recorded a telephone call with dhadriwala some years ago and it is on youtube. Look at the language used for dhadri in that video. Yet dhadri can criticise Kanwar Grewal for going to the Ram Rahim birthday party, but remains mute on darshan rogi. Maybe you can share your thoughts on that?

 

 

On 6/4/2018 at 7:03 AM, angy15 said:

A common message to all the followers with   different  ideologies from Sant Jarnail Singh Khalsa:

Thanks for sharing this photo @angy15. Can you please tell us what is written on point 5?

[chatanga1]

On 6/5/2018 at 4:24 AM, angy15 said:

Yes exactly that is the whole controversy  between the two.One school of thought is of the opinion its o.k with  these kind of tradition and they don;t want any controversy on  the tradition .Other school of thought says its a Brahimical concept of Sikhism.Thats why this disagreement.

I had asked you before, what was "brahmanical" about Sikhism. 

 

On 6/5/2018 at 4:24 AM, angy15 said:

I take a neutral view in this regard.

Your words certainly do not back up your claim.

 

On 6/5/2018 at 4:24 AM, angy15 said:

.But at the same time I don't think  Bhai Ranjit Singh is doing any anti Gurmat Vichaar .

 

So you sat in 1 diwan and didn't hear anything wrong spoken so that should make every other diwan ok?

Have you not heard of his diwan when he talks about amrit vela? His quip of "ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਿਜਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜ ਕੇ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ "? He was saying that nature has provided night for man to rest and so man should rest at night. He should not be getting up early in the morning because God has set nature for man to rest at night, so how can anyone go against what God has set and still please God?"

What is dhadri doing speaking rubbish like this?

And there is sarovars, bhoras, reincarnation etc. Have you heard the rubbish he has been saying about them?

 

 

 

 

[jaikaara]

8 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

I had asked you before, what was "brahmanical" about Sikhism. 

 

Your words certainly do not back up your claim.

 

 

So you sat in 1 diwan and didn't hear anything wrong spoken so that should make every other diwan ok?

Have you not heard of his diwan when he talks about amrit vela? His quip of "ਰੱਬ ਦੇ ਨਿਜਮਾ ਨੂੰ ਤੋੜ ਕੇ ਰੱਬ ਨੂੰ ਕਿਵੇਂ ਖੁਸ਼ ਕਰ ਸਕਦੇ "? He was saying that nature has provided night for man to rest and so man should rest at night. He should not be getting up early in the morning because God has set nature for man to rest at night, so how can anyone go against what God has set and still please God?"

What is dhadri doing speaking rubbish like this?

And there is sarovars, bhoras, reincarnation etc. Have you heard the rubbish he has been saying about them?

 

Bhaisahab, the only thing he will probably zero down to is listening to his bachans is perhaps the only way a Sikh can follow Sikhi . Rest all is just questionable in his and his comrades eyes. 

 

 

 

[angy15]

On 6/11/2018 at 12:44 AM, chatanga1 said:

Why? I asked you some questions on this topic last week, to which you haven't responded. Why are you so eager to draw up your own conclusion?

This is my opinion  you can agree or disagree?

 

On 6/11/2018 at 12:44 AM, chatanga1 said:

Good start. But let me add a little more to that. Where was Harnam Singh quoting from when he said this? The SGPC's very OWN record of it.

it was in an interview given by him  in Hindhustan  Times given . See the attached snnipet

 

On 6/11/2018 at 12:44 AM, chatanga1 said:

asked you where these two traditions started from? You didn't answer. Maybe you would like to now?

Well  i have no idea abt that . But certainly there are different ways to approach Gurbani. Whether Modern or traditional  .

 

On 6/11/2018 at 12:44 AM, chatanga1 said:

Sure. There has to be some sort of accuracy doesn't there? So what if one's narrative is inaccurate? Should we not discuss why?

Certainily Panthic issues should be discussed but  in front of Akal Takht  not like picking one liner  and discussing it on youtube.

 

On 6/11/2018 at 12:44 AM, chatanga1 said:

have a  lot of respect for Kiranjot Kaur. But she has not quite grasped the whole situation here. Amrik Chandigarhia does not preach the maryada of Sri Akal Takht Sahib. He does not have any respect or belief in Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib.

Why is it that Amrik Chandigarhia can speak against sarovars, but yet hold his tongue against the heinous act of darshan rogi in starting a new form of khande pahul ceremony?

Why is it that Ranjit Dhadriwala has also held his tongue on this yet been very vocal on other matters of less consequence? darshan rogi recorded a telephone call with dhadriwala some years ago and it is on youtube. Look at the language used for dhadri in that video. Yet dhadri can criticise Kanwar Grewal for going to the Ram Rahim birthday party, but remains mute on darshan rogi. Maybe you can share your thoughts on that?

Well that is your interpretation.She is very well educated and respected Lady and she has righty tweeted  if it doesn't suit your narrative fine.

Honestly i have never heard any Katha of Amrik .If you can produce the complete video not the clips than only i can comment on it .If  he had spoken against Sikh marayada why Akal Takht not taking action against him.  

On 6/11/2018 at 12:44 AM, chatanga1 said:

Can you please tell us what is written on point 5?

Who defines Sikh Sidhant  Akal Takht or Damadami Taksal 

Are these Sikh Sidhant what Sant Jranail Singh talking abt :

1. May 8,2018  Amrik Singh assaulted and  his  turban  was knocked off.Charanjit Singh Jassowal threatned  other preachers.

2. Sept 2017 A scuffle took place when Taksal sympathizers  portested inside a Gurudwara where Ranjit Singh was delivering a discourse 

3. May 2017 Panthpreet  Singh was attacked in a Gurudwara in Germany 

4. Marc 2016 A scuffle  took place in Gurudwara in Glenwood in Sydney where sikh author Gurtej Singh was speaking.

Now these are few incidents which i have citied .All incidents have something in common .These are attack due to differences in interpretation of Gurbani .

[angy15]

@chatanga1. 

    Veerji there is a very popular sakhi in life og Guru Har Krishan ji life. 

Pundit Lal Chand’s meeting with Guru ji:
At Aurangzeb’s request, Guru Har Krishan traveled to Delhi. On his way to Delhi, Guru ji stayed at a place called Panjokhara. There lived a pundit Lal Chand, who was very proud of his caste and knowledge. He came to see the young Guru and asked sarcastically “It’s said that you sit on the Gur gaddi of Guru Nanak, but what do you know about Bhagavad Gita”? Guru ji smiled at Lal Chand’s request and asked for Chhajju Ram. Chhajju was an illiterate, mute and deaf, village water-carrier who was helping in the kitchen at that moment. Guru ji asked Chhajju to sit in front and explain to the pundit the gist of Bhagavad Gita. Guru ji touched Chhajju’s head with a stick (wand). Chhajju Ram recited Gita in front of all there. Lal Chand was ashamed and fell at the Guru’s feet.

 

Do you really believed this incident  happened as it is described ( magic stick)

 

[chatanga1]

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

This is my opinion  you can agree or disagree?

I'm not talking about agreeing or disagreeing. I'm asking you why you are so eager to arrive at a conclusion given that you shared some opinions and did not wait to hear any other opinions whether in agreement or differing.

 

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

it was in an interview given by him  in Hindhustan  Times given . See the attached snnipet

And if you care to read the whole paragraph you will see that the source of Dhuma's information is the SGPC itself. He is only quoting them. I asked you (and also told you) what was the source of his info. Yet you stated the same thing again without understanding. So where is the drama in Dhuma saying this? You presented it here as some kind of weapon.

 

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

Well  i have no idea abt that . But certainly there are different ways to approach Gurbani. Whether Modern or traditional  .

So if you have no idea when the traditional ways to approach Gurbani started why are you automatically choosing a modern approach? Wouldn't it be better to see both sides and then make an informed decision?

 

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

Who defines Sikh Sidhant  Akal Takht or Damadami Taksal

When was Sikh Sidhant defined in Sri Akal Takht Sahib? When was Sikh Sidhant defined in Taksal?

 

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

Honestly i have never heard any Katha of Amrik .If you can produce the complete video not the clips than only i can comment on it .If  he had spoken against Sikh marayada why Akal Takht not taking action against him.  
 

Katha of Amrik is the same as the other missnaris. Nothing different.

 

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

Certainily Panthic issues should be discussed but  in front of Akal Takht  not like picking one liner  and discussing it on youtube.

This is not a Panthic issue. It is an issue of whether incorrect meanings are given to Gurbani.

For decades the HIndus have claimed that "Hari" in SGGS is for Vishnu, and "Ram" is for Ram Chander. If Sikhs object to Hindus distorting the meaning of Gurbani, why shouldn't Sikhs object to dhadriwala for distorting the meanings of Gurbani?

 

[chatanga1]

10 hours ago, angy15 said:

Do you really believed this incident  happened as it is described ( magic stick)

One at a time. You have the usual missnari trait of throwing anything and everything into a discussion. Lets discuss previous points first.

[angy15]

40 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

One at a time. You have the usual missnari trait of throwing anything and everything into a discussion. Lets discuss previous points first.

This was in response to Brahmanism which you were referring too.

[paapiman]

11 hours ago, angy15 said:

Do you really believed this incident  happened as it is described ( magic stick)

You don't believe in that historical narrative? You don't think that Sri Satguru jee can turn an illiterate person into a scholar in an instant with his grace?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 6/4/2018 at 1:35 AM, angy15 said:

I read an article where Bhai Harnam Singh Dhumma says Rehat Marayda of Akal Takht is just a draft its not final  

There is no one Sikh Rehat Maryada or one Panthic Maryada.

Please have a look below:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[angy15]

45 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

And if you care to read the whole paragraph you will see that the source of Dhuma's information is the SGPC itself. He is only quoting them. I asked you (and also told you) what was the source of his info. Yet you stated the same thing again without understanding. So where is the drama in Dhuma saying this? You presented it here as some kind of weapon.

That is his allegations but akal takht has a  SRM  circulated to sikh masses . The whole fight  is different  Maryada adopted at different places You  look at the maryada  and rituals done in Hazoor Sahib and Patna Sahib  from which angle doesis it in accordance the maryada of Akal Takht .Do you agree that all the maryada  of different deras  circulating have somthing common .

 

53 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

So if you have no idea when the traditional ways to approach Gurbani started why are you automatically choosing a modern approach? Wouldn't it be better to see both sides and then make an informed decision?

From which discussion of mine you came to a conclusion that i am choosing a modern  approach .

 

56 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

This is not a Panthic issue. It is an issue of whether incorrect meanings are given to Gurbani.

For decades the HIndus have claimed that "Hari" in SGGS is for Vishnu, and "Ram" is for Ram Chander. If Sikhs object to Hindus distorting the meaning of Gurbani, why shouldn't Sikhs object to dhadriwala for distorting the meanings of Gurbani?

There are different ways of looking and understanding  beacuse Gurbani is written in poetic form. For exapmle  poet will try to interpret  it in a poetic way ,a scientist in a scientific way so with Missionaries .We just can't have the literal meaning as the final understanding .it has to be contextual based and within the Gurbani framework.

[angy15]

2 minutes ago, paapiman said:

There is no one Sikh Rehat Maryada or one Panthic Maryada.

Please have a look below:

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Exactly this the root of all controversies . Taksal have there own ,Hazoor sahib there own and sikh missionary there own.As long we are not in common terms these difference will their.

[angy15]

1 hour ago, chatanga1 said:

One at a time. You have the usual missnari trait of throwing anything and everything into a discussion. Lets discuss previous points first.

 i am sorry if i have difference of opinion  with you  does it make me a missionary how ridiculous. Bibi kiranjot was right in her tweet  in this regard. 

[angy15]

12 minutes ago, angy15 said:

For decades the HIndus have claimed that "Hari" in SGGS is for Vishnu, and "Ram" is for Ram Chander. If Sikhs object to Hindus distorting the meaning of Gurbani, why shouldn't Sikhs object to dhadriwala for distorting the meanings of Gurbani?

Not all  sikhs are objecting to him.  Its only  Damdami Taksal and there followers who are objecting 

[chatanga1]

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

This was in response to Brahmanism which you were referring too.

OK, how is this story "Brahmanism" and what are the parameters of "Brahmanism" so that we may be more discerning in the future?

1 hour ago, angy15 said:

Exactly this the root of all controversies . Taksal have there own ,Hazoor sahib there own and sikh missionary there own.As long we are not in common terms these difference will their.

Forget these institutions. Let's look at the 2 main institutions of Sikh panth.

Please answer. "Are the maryadas of the 2 main Sikh institutions: Sachkhand Sri HariMandir Sahib and Sri Akal Takht Sahib the same? "

[Reader]

2 hours ago, angy15 said:

 i am sorry if i have difference of opinion  with you  does it make me a missionary how ridiculous. Bibi kiranjot was right in her tweet  in this regard. 

So you don't believe Guru Ji can turn an illiterate person into a literate scholar? I've noticed twice in this single thread you bring up incidents in history recorded by various Sikhs and somehow (intentionally or not) try to insinuate they didn't happen. 

[chatanga1]

3 hours ago, angy15 said:

Not all  sikhs are objecting to him.  Its only  Damdami Taksal and there followers who are objecting 

But not all Hindus claim that Sikhs are a sect of Hindus. So should we not say anything at all ?