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We run out breath, but don't stop elaborating on how Maharajah Ranjit Singh annihilated our quasi-democratic spirit (our brothers in blue only stop after their 10th wind); how autocracy is the bane of the Panth. But positing one individual jathedar above the rest of the Panth, isn't that autocracy?

I've never quite understood those who critisice Maharaja Ranjit SIngh for abolishing the Gurmata system. What else was he supposed to do? The misl leaders of his time were mostly focused on advancing their own cause and thereby stuck in internal warfare and petty chiftainship. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had greater ambitions for the panth. Had he continued the Gurmata system (of which many hardly even showed up to the meetings) Punjab would have continued being politically divided and most likely destroyed by the Afghans and British much sooner.

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8 hours ago, amardeep said:

I've never quite understood those who critisice Maharaja Ranjit SIngh for abolishing the Gurmata system. What else was he supposed to do? The misl leaders of his time were mostly focused on advancing their own cause and thereby stuck in internal warfare and petty chiftainship. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had greater ambitions for the panth. Had he continued the Gurmata system (of which many hardly even showed up to the meetings) Punjab would have continued being politically divided and most likely destroyed by the Afghans and British much sooner.

Interestingly enough, in my experience, its the Nihangs who degrade him more than any other jatha/samprada. 

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11 hours ago, amardeep said:

I've never quite understood those who critisice Maharaja Ranjit SIngh for abolishing the Gurmata system. What else was he supposed to do? The misl leaders of his time were mostly focused on advancing their own cause and thereby stuck in internal warfare and petty chiftainship. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had greater ambitions for the panth. Had he continued the Gurmata system (of which many hardly even showed up to the meetings) Punjab would have continued being politically divided and most likely destroyed by the Afghans and British much sooner.

IMHO, Maharaja Ranjit Singh did the right thing. Sometimes difficult decisions have to be taken for the greater good. He was a good tactician.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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Exactly. He did what had to be done. When the Afghans invaded Punjab in the late 1790s, it was only him and a few other misl sardars who kept bay and fought back. Many Misl leaders ran away. Why should Maharaja Ranjit Singh engage with leaders in a Gurmata if they are not willing to defend their lands?

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On 1/4/2018 at 7:47 AM, amardeep said:

Many Misl leaders ran away.

Did they run away or according to them it was more prudent to fight the guerrilla warfare with the invaders?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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36 minutes ago, paapiman said:

@Amarjeet Singh_1737 - Bro, do you know the reason(s) why Baba Santa Singh jee did not support Sant Jarnail Singh jee Khalsa during the dharam yudh morcha?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Veer ji here is a thread i found on the issue before 1984 

 

 

http://sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/67154-relationship-of-buddha-dal-with-damdami-taksal-during-dharam-yudh-morcha/&tab=comments#comment-540390

 

 

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40 minutes ago, paapiman said:

Did they run away or according to them it was more prudent to fight the guerrilla warfare with the invaders?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Since the misl leaders were the rulers of Punjab it was considered running away.

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On 09/11/2017 at 12:30 PM, Kaur Inder said:

Really. U mean Nihal singh ji as well. I’ve been at his residence few times at harianvela gurudwara can’t say anything about him. But yes the other nihangs there his cheles they are not that religious or I don’t know which word to use for them. Like some of them are weird. Not all of them.. I did heard something about that happened between him and I think some other Nihang as well I think his name is Balbir not sure. But don’t know the exact details.. so I just wanted to know what’s wrong with baba Nihal singh.  

 

Baba Nihal Singh has also taken in, in the past, recovering alcoholics and such and given them a place in his dera. This is a common thing in other deras as well. Not all go there because of prem or sharda. For some its poor life choices or unfortuate circumstances that took them there.

 

On 03/01/2018 at 10:32 PM, amardeep said:

I've never quite understood those who critisice Maharaja Ranjit SIngh for abolishing the Gurmata system. What else was he supposed to do? The misl leaders of his time were mostly focused on advancing their own cause and thereby stuck in internal warfare and petty chiftainship. Maharaja Ranjit Singh had greater ambitions for the panth. Had he continued the Gurmata system (of which many hardly even showed up to the meetings) Punjab would have continued being politically divided and most likely destroyed by the Afghans and British much sooner.

 

This is a little bit tricky. Maharaja saw that the degeneration of the Sikh leadership amongst the Misls was very weak. However the key point here is that even if Maharaja had abolished the Gurmatta, he didn't speak for the Panth. That was Akali Phoola Singh's job. He was Jathedar of Sri Akal Bunga and could have called a Sarbat Khalsa without the need to inform, or seek permission from Maharaja Sahib. Unless of course this decision to stop Sarbat Khalsa was taken after 1823, by which time Maharaja Sahib had been soveriegn for 23 years. Is there any record of any Sarbat Khalsa happening in that era?

 

On 04/01/2018 at 7:25 AM, Amarjeet Singh_1737 said:

Interestingly enough, in my experience, its the Nihangs who degrade him more than any other jatha/samprada. 

 

Maybe they are just continuing the traditions of Akali Phoola Singh.

 

On 04/01/2018 at 10:15 AM, paapiman said:

IMHO, Maharaja Ranjit Singh did the right thing. Sometimes difficult decisions have to be taken for the greater good. He was a good tactician.

 

Maharaja Ranjit Singh did what was best for himself. His decision making in his court and amongst his children was extremely poor. The repercussions of which the Panth suffer today. Coming to "tactics", Maharaja Sahib let the british get a foothold in Panjab by letting the Malwa Sardars seek their protection. Maharaja Sahib went on a tour of the Malwa states and subdued all of them but then, follishly re-instated them to their titles. He should have either executed the bloody lot, or sent them to Lahore where they had to attend court daily, as he did with a lot of the Manjha Sardars.

Letting these fools go, they ran straight to the British and accepted them as overlords, which gave the british an opportunity to move their borders right up to Satluj.

 

On 04/01/2018 at 12:47 PM, amardeep said:

Exactly. He did what had to be done. When the Afghans invaded Punjab in the late 1790s, it was only him and a few other misl sardars who kept bay and fought back. Many Misl leaders ran away. Why should Maharaja Ranjit Singh engage with leaders in a Gurmata if they are not willing to defend their lands?

 

It was Sada Kaur who encouraged Maharaja Sahib to first make a stand against the afghans and then take over Lahore/Misls/Panjab.

At this time, no Misl Sardars had run from the battelfield. They all met in Amritsar where some wanted to fight Abdali, some wanted to retreat only to Amritsar to stop abdali desecrating Amritsar again, and some wanted to retreat completely to the hills. But none had actually retreated/run at that time.

 

 

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If I remember correctly, they left Lahore unprotected. When you leave your Capital it Means you have surrendered as a state.

Yes it would have been better for him to have taken over the Malwa area but that would put him in a situation of bordering Delhi, - which would have put him in direct conflict with the British. I think he did the right thing in 1809 considering that he was still a small leader at the time. Having fixed a border with the British near the satluj meant that he could focus on areas like Multan, Kangra and Kashmir without having to worry about the British.

But yes, looking back, he should have taken the Malwa states.

Edited by amardeep

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I find it a shame that these singhs who dress in bana carry loads of shastar and carry their nishaan Sahib around nagar kirtans / when they visit the gurdwara. This pathetic bunch has not replied on this topic to clariffy their stance & why their so called head of dal panth the opium addict Joginder has jumped wagons. 

The point of this topic is to shed light on why we should stop supporting these nihangs in India and bringing them to the Uk...avoid, waste of sangats money. Politics is rife in the panth. It cannot be avoided. 

 

These people in India are enjoying being flown around the world, enjoying luxuries etc. What have they worked for?

If any of these men I have mentioned consider themselves the real nihangs they would have dealt with balbir

 

Or

 

They would have openly come out and gone against him...but these people are nothing but lazy people who are very much irrelevant. 

 

Heck ,theses so called warriors only know gatka. Truely pathetic panth.

 

Budha dal UK. When will you show yourselvss to be true khalsA? Carry on hiding bitches.

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5 hours ago, Crystal said:

I find it a shame that these singhs who dress in bana carry loads of shastar and carry their nishaan Sahib around nagar kirtans / when they visit the gurdwara. This pathetic bunch has not replied on this topic to clariffy their stance & why their so called head of dal panth the opium addict Joginder has jumped wagons. 

The point of this topic is to shed light on why we should stop supporting these nihangs in India and bringing them to the Uk...avoid, waste of sangats money. Politics is rife in the panth. It cannot be avoided. 

 

These people in India are enjoying being flown around the world, enjoying luxuries etc. What have they worked for?

If any of these men I have mentioned consider themselves the real nihangs they would have dealt with balbir

 

Or

 

They would have openly come out and gone against him...but these people are nothing but lazy people who are very much irrelevant. 

 

Heck ,theses so called warriors only know gatka. Truely pathetic panth.

 

Budha dal UK. When will you show yourselvss to be true khalsA? Carry on hiding bitches.

Just trying to get sense of things in reality, how many nihangs, dals (which dals) endorsed baba prema singh ji hazoor sahib budda dal? and how many endorsed baba joginder singh ji?

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14 hours ago, sarabatam said:

Just trying to get sense of things in reality, how many nihangs, dals (which dals) endorsed baba prema singh ji hazoor sahib budda dal? and how many endorsed baba joginder singh ji?

Basically whoever steps in front of them, they give a dastaar. 

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On 1/8/2018 at 6:29 AM, paapiman said:

@Amarjeet Singh_1737 - Bro, do you know the reason(s) why Baba Santa Singh jee did not support Sant Jarnail Singh jee Khalsa during the dharam yudh morcha?

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I asked some relatives who were around back then. Santa Singh, basically, was a Congress supporter from the start. 

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Samurai's rant..

admin cut

hence my reply below.

ill get straight to the point,.. so  unless you are a practising nihang or have an affiliation with such people you cannot really know whats going on. i don't mean dressed up nihangs. So best to be quiet , judge in your cosy blanket and keep your opinions to yourself. Reason being you are posting your sh*t on a net that potentially every one in the world will read and somewhat believe. 

Anyway, santa singh did not get involved for a few reasons, not that he was a pro congress (maybe he could be..ok) but for the following reasons,

1..he told Jarnail singh to not promote akali dal or have any affiliation with them as they will stab him in the back, which they did. 

2. that the morcha should be in anandpur sahib not harmandhir sahib (if you have a war strategic mentality/preparation you will know why.)- this being main reason.

3. the fact that the head of buddha dal was the head of akkal takth (so should be making the military decision) 

4. this is just my opinion, santa singh wanted to gain power of akaal takth, hence taking responsibility of taking govt money to rebuild the takht.

 

Right, i feel santa singh was wrong not to get involved in the morcha. But do not forget the nihangs that did, remember they are going against the decision of their head. A big big thing in any military organisation. 

one last thing, many of you are not living the messy side of political practices, most are in professional jobs loving the saintly side of things and want to judge the military side of things. Well...

Well second last thing,  Baba prem singh is the jathedar of Buddha dal, baba joginder singh didnt even want jathedhari in the first place, he's a sadhu yodha (paradox in itself)but you clever people will refer to him as an opium addict. 

Don't forgive me for my mistakes,  admin cut

 

 

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So why the admin cut..

ok let me be politically correct and i think i will take a snapshot of this. 

A representative of the sikhawareness organisation kindly contacted myself in regards to contribute to the website which was in very bold terms, deflated. I, in response advised the representative not to contact me and to reach out for those who express a very romanticised version of the warriors aspect of the Sikh religion.  

Wish everyone well, and please do remember to turn the other cheek if one violently slaps you. 

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It's not good times for the panth, there are divisions literally everywhere in the panth. Solution to this specific issue -division among nihang dals can be solved if jathedar joginder singh ji and jathedar baba prem singh ji budda dal sit together-endorse each other, more importantly clear any doubts their followers may have against other. They are leaders, they have to show the way to their premis be united.

As far as past goes,  leave that up to the historians no point getting worked up on chronology when most of us were still toddlers. Concentrate on present issues.

 

 

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I have another question to nihangs specially,  i realize i may get different answers, who do you pay allegiance to? Khalsa Budda dals/dals as khalsa institution ? or jathedar of that dal which changes always? or both?. There is subtle difference and very important one. I think if one pay allegiance to institution, one is more focused and unlikely to get carried away with personality worship. 

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We are not Sikhs of any Sant/Baba/Sadhu/Bhai/Jathedar/Singh Sahib/Akali Nihang/Professor/Principal/Doctor/Samprada, etc.

We are Sikhs of, one and only Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj (currently in the form of Satguru Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee Maharaaj).

The situation with the Nihangs might be disappointing but Daas would humbly request all the Sikhs associated with Nihangs to stay focused on your main leader (Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh jee Maharaaj) and follow Gurbani. No human can be perfect as our greatest Masters.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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i will not answer questions/suggestions which require time. Simply because there is no simple quick answer. a nice story you may like.. A learner asked the teacher to tell him about his experience of "god", the teacher replied...it took me 20 years to be where i am, how can i explain this in 20 mins...live with me for 20 years then you will understand my experience  

Yes sikhs should be sikhs and remain so.

Not all sikhs are Nihang/akali, but all nihangs/akali's are firm sikhs. 

 

 

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On 11/01/2018 at 1:25 PM, Crystal said:

I find it a shame that these singhs who dress in bana carry loads of shastar and carry their nishaan Sahib around nagar kirtans / when they visit the gurdwara.

 

On 11/01/2018 at 1:25 PM, Crystal said:

They would have openly come out and gone against him...but these people are nothing but lazy people who are very much irrelevant. 

 

On 11/01/2018 at 1:25 PM, Crystal said:

Heck ,theses so called warriors only know gatka. Truely pathetic panth.

 

CrCrCrystal! Some very strongs words there. I remember a few years ago discussing these themes when Ajit Singh Poohla was being discussed. Even though Poohla was hated by many of the other nihangs they could not do anything about him. Personally, i felt that the other dals were scared of Poohla's crew. He got upto enough stuff but no-one from Dal Panth could/would do anything about it. Poohla had high level support from Panjjab Ravan sena (although that very quickly dissipated.) Similarly Balbir Singh has a lot of support from political connections (SGPC etc.) This may be one of the reasons why others don't act against Balbir Singh.

 

I want you to clarify some reasons on why you do not support Balbir Singh though.

 

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On 12/01/2018 at 9:46 AM, Amarjeet Singh_1737 said:

I asked some relatives who were around back then. Santa Singh, basically, was a Congress supporter from the start. 

 

Baba Santa Singh could very easily be a congress supporter. For one, he and the Akalis/SGPC did not have a good relationship. That is well known. Another thing is that he and Zail Singh had a mutual affection for one another. Zail Singh was the one who inaugarated the "Guru Gobind Singh Marg in 1970" and Budha Dal were the ones who led the nagar kirtan on its inaugaraion. Baba Santa Singh called Zail Singh a "a param Sikh." Equally it could also have been the hatred towards Akali/SGPC that made him accept congress overtures in 1984.

 

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