Adyatam questions and answers by Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale recorded in 2017 trip to toronto

[sarabatam]

Gurfateh all,

Just passing by, wanted to post Adyatam questions and answers by Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale 2017 trip to toronto, they are deep answers as usual clears lot of doubts, give deep insight of gurbani and also into state of bhramgyan:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F02_Present_Day_Katha%2FBaba_Jagjit_Singh_(Harkhowal_wale)%2FDiscussions_Questions_and_Answers%2F2017

 

 

[Soulfinder]

9 minutes ago, sarabatam said:

Gurfateh all,

Just passing by, wanted to post Adyatam questions and answers by Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale 2017 trip to toronto, they are deep answers as usual clears lot of doubts, give deep insight of gurbani and also into state of bhramgyan:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F02_Present_Day_Katha%2FBaba_Jagjit_Singh_(Harkhowal_wale)%2FDiscussions_Questions_and_Answers%2F2017

 

 

Thanks very much i like Baba Ji's katha a lot

[Singh123456777]

When did baba ji come?

[sarabatam]

They were here in toronto oct 9 onwards, they even did katha at malton gurdwara then nanaksar for one day, also went to BC.

[Singh123456777]

Damn i didnt even know 🙁

when is baba ji coming back?

[sarabatam]

Not sure but you can always go see him in india when you are down there next. Enjoy the katha for now

[sarabatam]

Any thoughts on q and a  in orginal post? Anyone?

How do you guys find it 

[Lucky]

6 hours ago, sarabatam said:

Any thoughts on q and a  in orginal post? Anyone?

How do you guys find it 

Very good and very deep. Understanding the concept and differentiation between Atma & Chetun and other deep questions are answered very well.  I've had the utmost respect for babaji from an older recording where he answered many questions at incomparable depths; much to my liking.

I've listen to it twice now, very slowly, and stopping after each question for a good while to contemplate within myself.   Thumbs up here!

[sarabatam]

I am glad sangat like this kinda deep vichar. 

The way I understood regarding Atma. There is no difference between Atma and Chetan (Pure Being Awareness) and that in bhramgyan avastha one see chetna everywhere. Once ego or mind is lost nothing matters because nothing is all chetna / awareness 

[Lucky]

On 12/13/2017 at 3:30 AM, sarabatam said:

I am glad sangat like this kinda deep vichar. 

The way I understood regarding Atma. There is no difference between Atma and Chetan (Pure Being Awareness) and that in bhramgyan avastha one see chetna everywhere. Once ego or mind is lost nothing matters because nothing is all chetna / awareness 

It's a deep question, but as you mention, chetan dissolves completely into atma at brahmgyan avastha. You can tell that Babaji has a deep and profound understanding of this and it's difficult to put in words for common man.  He's answered a question using chosen words that cover a lot of scope and I'm certain that he could talk for hours about this topic alone. There are some subtle hints that can be thought provoking with regards to seeker's intellect.

I do have a hell of a lot to say about atma and chetan/chit,(consciousness), but this is really recognized through effort and experience. I will share a few brief points in line with what Babaji said in a day or two. I can't write everything  but can give some pointers and explanations according to my own ideas. These may help you realise why I admired the answers Babaji had given.

[sarabatam]

The way i've understood it and some what expereince it on expertential level. Atma/pure awareness is both local awareness/consciouness and beyond, vast and infinite, but when surat focualized atma on local level, one existence's level , it limit themselves, it objectifies it and duality kicks in

 In reality, our atma -pure awareness in us does not have limit is vast and infinite as sky not limited to one existence/body/mind. In bhramgyan or sehaj samadhi, individual existence-consciouness/mind totally dissolves in to vast atma which is all in all, without any duality, without any distincation, there are no subject or object. Atma is one without second.

As in the recording, sant ji was reiteretating in bhramgyan there are no vichars left one sees/feels/being-chaitna/atma and atma everywhere. There are no disctination, there is no you or me, its state of non duality, there is no object and subject, or objectification or further fragmentation into individuality existence, relative realities, different body. In bhramgyan, one is not aware of one existence focualized, its all awareness on expertential level, these things are hard to explain as you mentioned.

[Kaur Inder]

On 12/12/2017 at 7:01 AM, sarabatam said:

Gurfateh all,

Just passing by, wanted to post Adyatam questions and answers by Sant Jagjit Singh Harkhowale 2017 trip to toronto, they are deep answers as usual clears lot of doubts, give deep insight of gurbani and also into state of bhramgyan:

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FKatha%2F02_Present_Day_Katha%2FBaba_Jagjit_Singh_(Harkhowal_wale)%2FDiscussions_Questions_and_Answers%2F2017

 

 

Thank u so much.. 🙏🏻

[Lucky]

On 12/17/2017 at 7:43 AM, sarabatam said:

The way i've understood it and some what expereince it on expertential level. Atma/pure awareness is both local awareness/consciouness and beyond, vast and infinite, but when surat focualized atma on local level, one existence's level , it limit themselves, it objectifies it and duality kicks in

 In reality, our atma -pure awareness in us does not have limit is vast and infinite as sky not limited to one existence/body/mind. In bhramgyan or sehaj samadhi, individual existence-consciouness/mind totally dissolves in to vast atma which is all in all, without any duality, without any distincation, there are no subject or object. Atma is one without second.

As in the recording, sant ji was reiteretating in bhramgyan there are no vichars left one sees/feels/being-chaitna/atma and atma everywhere. There are no disctination, there is no you or me, its state of non duality, there is no object and subject, or objectification or further fragmentation into individuality existence, relative realities, different body. In bhramgyan, one is not aware of one existence focualized, its all awareness on expertential level, these things are hard to explain as you mentioned.

That's good understanding,, but we have to keep an open mind and some of these vichaars have depths beyond our reach. I have tried to keep it simplistic and this is mostly my own understanding and interpretation. All errors are mine and i stand corrected.

 

It's a deep question, but as you mention, chetan dissolves completely into atma at brahmgyan avastha. You can tell that Babaji has a deep and profound understanding of this and it's difficult to put in words for common man.  He's answered a question using chosen words that cover a lot of scope and I'm certain that he could talk for hours about this topic alone. He’s also given some subtle hints that should be thought provoking depending on seeker’s intellect.

I do have a hell of a lot to say about atma and chetan/chit,(consciousness), but it’s really recognized through effort and experience.   For now, I’ll briefly share a few points in line with what Babaji said, and you may realise why I really admired his words.

For arguments sake, lets stick with the terms -

Atma=Soul,

Paramatma= Supreme single soul/nirankar

Chit/Chetun=Consciousness. 

To recognise and differentiate between them, is fundamental for realisation; in my opinion.

Imagine the universe at a moment before creation. Gurbani tells us that only he was present, and he was within himself. “Sargun Nirgun Nirankar sunn samadhi aap - apan keea Nanaka aapey hi phir jaap”. Visualise this for a second to picture the creation happening after this moment. That moment was the “ONG” or the big-bang.  Remember the meaning of IK-ONG-KAR.  Ik= singularity of one before creation.  Then came the “ONG” shabad sound, followed by the “KAR”(creation). The doer(IK) did the creation(KAR) with the Ong

Gurbani says “sunn samadhi aap” he was in primal samadhi in the void within himself. This “within himself” in sunn samadhi is crucial because when referring to that moment before creation; nothing had been created yet. At that point, it was just ‘IK’

It may help if you imagine a still, single point as IK. The big bang theory even calls this the 'moment of singularity'. It is at this stage, when there were no manifestation of Sargun or Nirgun, but it was just Nirankar himself. (No akaar =Nirankar, whereas Sargun & nirgun are akaar)

Bearing this in mind, it can help understand why two terms translated as formless (nirgun and nirankar) are used.  Nirgun, refers to  ‘after creation’ meaning = without form, without attributes etc.  Nirankar refers to that singularity, the IK himself before any creation, before any akaar. Now, when we bring in Atma and Chetan, it can help understand where they fit in. The topic itself is huge because it brings in everything like manmat, gurmat, brahmagyan, turiya avastha and much more of gurbani from comprehending this Ik-ong-kar alone along Nirankar (without akaar or consciousness)

When IK is by itself, just before moment of ong-kar, then we could also say that the almighty single soul/atma is Paramatma. It may be helpful to visualise a light(jyot) that is akin to a singularity point or dot… imagine this jyot as not radiating and not yet emitting light to the surroundings. It’s that trillionth of a second from when you turn the light switch on in a dark room, to when the room lights up. The moment when the bulb filament has just ignited and the luminosity is still within the bulb and not expanded out into the room. In this trillionth of a sec, the MOTION is not in play yet…This motion that I’m referring to is what came into play from the IK. This is the Consciousness. It is the Chetan or Chit within, and around us.

As the jyot or Ik, begins to radiate outwards and expand, we could say that it’s all executed via an increasing flux of Chetan/Consciousness. The expanding universe and worlds were created in this instant. We also know, that he is STILL creating because science tells us the universe is still expanding.  The “kar” is done but is also continuing to be created.

Q) What happened at the moment of Ong-kar/creation and what changed about God?

A) Initially, God was in a primal nothingness void and in deep samadhi within himself. There was no creation yet. Whereas after, he became God the creator, and he is now the creator and creation itself.  Gurbani refers to this attribute as “Gobind” ( lord of the universe)

According to old texts and to my understanding, this moment of creation when consciousness came into play, is when duality was created. Prior to this, there were no duality except atam/paramatma.

-The Ik was singular, ..Advait(non-dual)..........Atam, Paramatam was singular..........-no motion or time in play. 

This is the Shiv-shakti, with the shakti being the consciousness.

Babaji mentions this in the recording and refers to Chetan as the shakti which is everywhere and comes from Paramatma.

  He gave the analogy of the electrical items like bulb, heater etc that won’t work or become active unless the shakti of electric flow is present.  In the same manner, consciousness is active in the whole of existence.

   You may be aware that for some years now, quantum physics has determined that the whole universe is very much alive with this “consciousness”.  It’s also important to understand that consciousness/chetan is dualistic. When this consciousness came into existence; it started to emanate and expand outwards from Paramatma. This is when duality also became a reality.

 

In summary, …

*very original point of IK, or that non-emitting jyot is Paramatma,... this is also NIRANKAR (without consciousness and without akar)  NOTE- GOD"S consciousness was all within himself and not in creation

*The enormous flux of energy/shakti that has radiated and expanded out from it, is  the Consciousness/Chetan.

May also try and picture as if trillions of photons/light particles emanating outwards, are “atma’s” coming from Paramatma.  In Babaji’s recording where he gave the analogy of the electric current akin to Chetan/consciousness, he said the Chetan is a shakti flowing around and within us.  Just like electrical items and appliances, our indries(senses and motor functions), are all controlled and functioning under the Chetan/Consiocusness. Even the involuntary organs function through the same consciousness via subtle energies/prana.  The Consciousness stems from the atma that we have inside us. Babaji gave analogy of root and stem. Just like the mind, we can merge the consciousness into the atma/paramatma. He gave example of Bhai Mani Singh and how he directed his Chetan away from all indiries and sareer, and channeled it into the atam. All that remained was the atam in it’s purest state  This is the inner yoga, where one “jog’s”(joins) the consciousness into the soul.

 

[sarabatam]

Your post deconstructs atma and paratma very well for understanding purposes. Difference really lies in how surat fragments single block reality into duality thats why distinctive terms/different reference point/different state comes in gurbani and spiritual literature to explain concepts based on seeker different level or grasp of understanding but in reality there are none its only paratma/atma. Baba ji said in the tape- there is no you or me its only paratma/atma- tai har ape aap . Also If you read sukhmani sahib asthpadi 21st*, maharaj from absolute non dual reality/ point of view also reject/questions fragment dual reality play of shiv and shakti as they are no where to be found.

*

ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥
Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,

ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥
तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e.
then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?

This mahavak from gurbani also talks about how there are no difference between atma and paratama

Gyan Parbodh from sri dasam granth

ਪਾਧੜੀ ਛੰਦ ॥
पाधड़ी छंद ॥
PAADHRAI STANZA

ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
त्व प्रसादि ॥
BY THY GRACE

ਦਿਨ ਅਜਬ ਏਕ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਭਉ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਹਦ ਅਕਾਮ ॥
दिन अजब एक आतमा राम ॥ अनभउ सरूप अनहद अकाम ॥
On a day the curious soul (asked): The infinite and Desire less Lord, the Intuitive Entity.

ਅਨਛਿੱਜ ਤੇਜ ਆਜਾਨ ਬਾਹੁ ॥ ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਸਾਹਾਨ ਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥੧੨੬॥
अनछि्ज तेज आजान बाहु ॥ राजान राजु साहान साहु ॥१॥१२६॥
Of everlasting Glory and long-armed; the King of kings and Emperor of emperors.1.126.

ਉਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥
उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥
The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;

ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥
इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥
What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.

ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥
परातमा बाच ॥
The Higher Soul said:

ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥
यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥
This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.

ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥
जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥
Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.

ਡੋਬਿਓ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਟਿਓ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥
डोबिओ न डुबै सोखिओ न जाइ ॥ कटिओ न कटै न बारियो बराइ ॥
It is neither drowned nor soaked; It can neither be chopped nor burnt.

ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥
छिजै न नैक सत ससत्र पात ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र नहीं जात पात ॥४॥१२९॥
It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon; It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129.

ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਹੰਸ ਸਤ ਸਤ ਪ੍ਰਘਾਇ ॥ ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਖੰਡਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सत्र सहंस सत सत प्रघाइ ॥ छिजै न नैक खंडिओ न जाइ ॥
By the blow of thousands of enemies, It is neither wasted away nor fragmented.

ਨਹੀ ਜਰੈ ਨੈਕ ਪਾਵਕ ਮੰਝਾਰ ॥ ਬੋਰੈ ਨ ਸਿੰਧ ਸੋਖੈ ਨ ਬਯਾਰ ॥੫॥੧੩੦॥
नही जरै नैक पावक मंझार ॥ बोरै न सिंध सोखै न बयार ॥५॥१३०॥
It is not burnt even in the fire. It is neither drowned in the sea nor soaked by the air.5.13

[sarabatam]

This map also deconstruct well:

 

[Lucky]

4 hours ago, sarabatam said:

Your post deconstructs atma and paratma very well for understanding purposes. Difference really lies in how surat fragments single block reality into duality thats why distinctive terms/different reference point/different state comes in gurbani and spiritual literature to explain concepts based on seeker different level or grasp of understanding but in reality there are none its only paratma/atma. Baba ji said in the tape- there is no you or me its only paratma/atma- tai har ape aap . Also If you read sukhmani sahib asthpadi 21st*, maharaj from absolute non dual reality/ point of view also reject/questions fragment dual reality play of shiv and shakti as they are no where to be found.

*

ਜਬ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਹਜ ਸੁਭਾਇ ॥
जब निरगुन प्रभ सहज सुभाइ ॥
Jab nirgun parabẖ sahj subẖā▫e.
When God was without attributes, in absolute poise,

ਤਬ ਸਿਵ ਸਕਤਿ ਕਹਹੁ ਕਿਤੁ ਠਾਇ ॥
तब सिव सकति कहहु कितु ठाइ ॥
Ŧab siv sakaṯ kahhu kiṯ ṯẖā▫e.
then where was mind and where was matter - where was Shiva and Shakti?

This mahavak from gurbani also talks about how there are no difference between atma and paratama

Gyan Parbodh from sri dasam granth

ਪਾਧੜੀ ਛੰਦ ॥
पाधड़ी छंद ॥
PAADHRAI STANZA

ਤ੍ਵ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
त्व प्रसादि ॥
BY THY GRACE

ਦਿਨ ਅਜਬ ਏਕ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਅਨਭਉ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਨਹਦ ਅਕਾਮ ॥
दिन अजब एक आतमा राम ॥ अनभउ सरूप अनहद अकाम ॥
On a day the curious soul (asked): The infinite and Desire less Lord, the Intuitive Entity.

ਅਨਛਿੱਜ ਤੇਜ ਆਜਾਨ ਬਾਹੁ ॥ ਰਾਜਾਨ ਰਾਜੁ ਸਾਹਾਨ ਸਾਹੁ ॥੧॥੧੨੬॥
अनछि्ज तेज आजान बाहु ॥ राजान राजु साहान साहु ॥१॥१२६॥
Of everlasting Glory and long-armed; the King of kings and Emperor of emperors.1.126.

ਉਚਰਿਓ ਆਤਮਾ ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਸੰਗ ॥ ਉਤਭੁਜ ਸਰੂਪ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਭੰਗ ॥
उचरिओ आतमा परातमा संग ॥ उतभुज सरूप अबिगत अभंग ॥
The soul said to the Higher Soul; the Germinating Entity, Unmanifested and Invincible;

ਇਹ ਕਉਨ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਸਰੂਪ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜ ਅਤਿਭੂਤਿ ਬਿਭੂਤਿ ॥੨॥੧੨੭॥
इह कउन आहि आतमा सरूप ॥ जिह अमित तेज अतिभूति बिभूति ॥२॥१२७॥
What is this Soul Entity? Which hath indelible glory and which is of queer substance."2.127.

ਪਰਾਤਮਾ ਬਾਚ ॥
परातमा बाच ॥
The Higher Soul said:

ਯਹਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਆਹਿ ਆਤਮਾ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਅਮਿਤ ਤੇਜਿ ਅਬਿਗਤ ਅਕਾਮ ॥
यहि ब्रहम आहि आतमा राम ॥ जिह अमित तेजि अबिगत अकाम ॥
This Soul is itself Brahman;" Who is of Everlasting Glory and is Unmanisfested and Desireless.

ਜਿਹ ਭੇਦ ਭਰਮ ਨਹੀਂ ਕਰਮ ਕਾਲ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਰਬਾ ਦਿਆਲ ॥੩॥੧੨੮॥
जिह भेद भरम नहीं करम काल ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र सरबा दिआल ॥३॥१२८॥
Who is indiscriminate, actionless and deathless; Who hath no enemy and friend and is Merciful towards all.3.1228.

ਡੋਬਿਓ ਨ ਡੁਬੈ ਸੋਖਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥ ਕਟਿਓ ਨ ਕਟੈ ਨ ਬਾਰਿਯੋ ਬਰਾਇ ॥
डोबिओ न डुबै सोखिओ न जाइ ॥ कटिओ न कटै न बारियो बराइ ॥
It is neither drowned nor soaked; It can neither be chopped nor burnt.

ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਸਤ ਸਸਤ੍ਰ ਪਾਤ ॥ ਜਿਹ ਸਤ੍ਰ ਮਿਤ੍ਰ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਾਤ ਪਾਤ ॥੪॥੧੨੯॥
छिजै न नैक सत ससत्र पात ॥ जिह सत्र मित्र नहीं जात पात ॥४॥१२९॥
It cannot be assailed by the blow of weapon; It hath neither an enemy nor a friend, neither caste not lineage.4.129.

ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਹੰਸ ਸਤ ਸਤ ਪ੍ਰਘਾਇ ॥ ਛਿਜੈ ਨ ਨੈਕ ਖੰਡਿਓ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
सत्र सहंस सत सत प्रघाइ ॥ छिजै न नैक खंडिओ न जाइ ॥
By the blow of thousands of enemies, It is neither wasted away nor fragmented.

ਨਹੀ ਜਰੈ ਨੈਕ ਪਾਵਕ ਮੰਝਾਰ ॥ ਬੋਰੈ ਨ ਸਿੰਧ ਸੋਖੈ ਨ ਬਯਾਰ ॥੫॥੧੩੦॥
नही जरै नैक पावक मंझार ॥ बोरै न सिंध सोखै न बयार ॥५॥१३०॥
It is not burnt even in the fire. It is neither drowned in the sea nor soaked by the air.5.13

excellent!.  We are on the same page now. 

This is what i would have moved onto next. The understanding and differentiating is helpful to help us conquer ourselves and to "mann jithay jagjeet". With topics like the above, i find a lot of misguidance and confusion, hence the the reasons for addressing it. 

That map is very good and one of those that you need to refer back to.  

 

 

[Kaur Inder]

22 hours ago, sarabatam said:

This map also deconstruct well:

 

It’s so complex.. need a teacher who can help me analyse it.