Pronounce the Sihari at the End of the Word - How to Read Guru Granth Sahib (Part 1)

[BhagatSingh]

19 hours ago, samurai2 said:

can you provide a reference that Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not provide one way to pronounce it..??

@paapiman

You guys are the ones making that claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji taught it your way.

So the onus is on you guys to provide evidence that he did.

On 6/2/2018 at 1:11 PM, samurai2 said:

I need clarification on something, which i think is very important in me understanding where you are coming from. 

When you write Hari , and pronounce it. Is the end pronounced 'ee'... the same as the following in the english language. All spelt with "i" but pronounced as ee

Like I said the sihari at the end of Hari or any other Siharis in general, they are pronounced as the i in Tin.

It is the short e sound.

For example, I pronounce - immediately as  ਇਮੀਡਿਏਟਲਿ

The stress is on the mme so it is a Bihari. All other e sounds are siharis.

I pronounce that y in immediately as a short e sound (Sihari). But in some accents, that y is pronounced as an - eh - like immediateleh - similar to how you and paapiman pronounce Siharis.

Which is different from - Bee - pronounced as  - ਬੀ

 

Different Punjabi speakers that come from different geographical locations, they have their own way to pronounce consonants and vowels.

You and Paapiman thinking that your way to pronounce Sihari is the correct way, is ignoring your own inherent dialectical bias.

[paapiman]

1 hour ago, BhagatSingh said:

You guys are the ones making that claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji taught it your way.

So the onus is on you guys to provide evidence that he did.

Taksaal's (institution which was mean't to teach Shudh Ucharan of Gurbani) lineage goes back to Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). That is why, Daas believes that their way of pronouncing should be close to perfect.

Can you please show me any Paathi (of any Samprada) who pronounces the way you pronounce Gurbani?

Again, take it as a question. Please answer, yes or no. If yes, please provide the audio link.

Thanks

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[samurai2]

3 hours ago, amardeep said:

That’s a normal expression in English. Would you say your comment about him being abused as a kid is something of a  normal English expression?

What country are you from? Normal? Yes it is grammatically correct but it is also an insult. Are you not aware of this? \unlike your boyfriend i also trade insults in direct industrial language. 

Again to reiterate, as you phudus here have a tendency to pick and choose what you want to see/hear, the original comment from your boyfriend was an insult. Do you get this or not? 

[samurai2]

You initially made this statement. 

On 5/31/2018 at 5:49 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Guru Gobind Singh ji did not teach any one way to pronounce it.

 

3 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

You guys are the ones making that claim that Guru Gobind Singh ji taught it your way.

So the onus is on you guys to provide evidence that he did.

So the onus is on you me ol'son. 

 

A simple question. In the english alphabet please spell how you would say Hari (i use this as you are).

Har with a siharee is Har-eh not haree. What do you think? (simple question, no need for other examples)

 

please answer the above before making a comment on my next statement.

One think you really do fail to fathom is quiet simply, gur boli has nothing to do with pronunciation depending on your accent. IE english is pronounced differently in north and south of England but will spell it the same. They do not have moharni. 

Do you get this?

If not i can give examples too..

Ive had a mate of mine who said you (Bhagtee) do the same thing on Sikh Sangat, you go off on some random sh*t and go around the same circle. i do not normally go on Sikh Sangat but was decided to read the kalki thread, mate first i thought you had an agenda but now im truly thinking you are tapped. You defo have traits of a sullah, focus on the similarities then bang- down to your agenda.

This is the kind of shit that makes me personally, and a lot of other, stay away from such sites. Its like you lot have a forum identity. 

Anyway, thats my little rant.  Below is my egs of Siharee moharnee (smh to these times we have to actually spell moharnee in english alphabet) 

All sharp e (almost like eh), so hard to do in writing. This is why maharaj taught orally as done by the taksal, which Gobind Singh Ji started himself. (big maafi to maharaj and baba mani singh, baba deep singh-im no one to teach moharni but just need to state for sake of dusht)

Sassa siharee  s-e

haha siharee h-e

kakka siharee k-e

gagge siharee g-e

tenkah siharee t-e

So on and so forth.

@paapiman stop being a admin cut and repeating yourself. Bhagtee knows of taksal and how it started, linigue etc, he still does not agree. Onus is on him as he made the initial statement. "Guru Gobind Singh ji did not teach any one way to pronounce it" Wake up and smell the coffee. 

[amardeep]

51 minutes ago, samurai2 said:

What country are you from? Normal? Yes it is grammatically correct but it is also an insult. Are you not aware of this? \unlike your boyfriend i also trade insults in direct industrial language. 

Again to reiterate, as you phudus here have a tendency to pick and choose what you want to see/hear, the original comment from your boyfriend was an insult. Do you get this or not? 

I don’t know why you keep arguing. You’ve had a trash language for months and have had your posts edited and deleted by admin crew many times over, stop acting like an innocent kid claiming to defend yourself against others. Your example of child abuse was way over the top. You call it industrial language, while others will call it American trailer trash talk. It’s not a human right to talk like that and use such disgusting language, so stop it. If you have an issue with Bhagat then by all means discuss with him but don’t Use swear words and disgusting language along the way. 

[samurai2]

On 5/31/2018 at 4:31 PM, BhagatSingh said:

You are pronouncing Sihari like Lav, whereas for the rest of us Sihari is defined as a chhoti Bihari and Lan is a chhota Dulav.

You still did not answer, "rest of us" and who is this "us", another thing you "conveniently" miss.. also answer kalki on sikh sangat you rat

@amardeep  mate is this a forum thing? whereby you conveniently miss certain questions?

A direct questions was to you. ill put it in bold

Was Bhagtee's comments in regards to myself and my boy paapiman not an insult? Y or N

you will find it in the english law as an insult. If you want to play pappu so can i, it just doesn't fit me well..

Now i will stop, as you command with your authoritative voice.  (stop acting like an innocent kid claiming to defend yourself against others)

Once this siharee thread has finished ill bounce, (only reason im staying put is cos i've had a significant input)

 

 

 

 

[amardeep]

Feel free to leave if you think you can't live without swearing. If you feel that Bhagat Singh insulted you then why did'n you report the comment just like other members report content that is out of line?? Or did you just think of it as an opportunity to bring out trash talk of him being abused as a kid??  You dont make any sense.

 

The admins on this page dont read every single post that is made, so some people might break the rules without the admins knowing - for the most part we rely on members reporting material that crosses the rules. Now that i've browsed through many posts from recent two weeks I can see there are plenty of posts where you have sweared and used foul language, without it being edited or you being warned. So if you wanna continue claiming that Bhagat got a free pass then you can relax and know for sure that you've had plenty of free passes in the last few weeks also.

Edited June 3, 2018 by amardeep

[samurai2]

9 minutes ago, amardeep said:

If you feel that Bhagat Singh insulted you then why did'n you report the comment just like other members report content that is out of line??

This meaning, Bhagtee reported me?

A grass..hahah

im from east london..snitches get stitches..u wont get this, ill have to find a book ref for this...jokers

[amardeep]

No he did'n. i happened to read the post myself.

Aarh threaths. Very good. Very mature. Grow up man. Feel free to leave the page if you can't live without swearing. But it's a shame if you leave as  you've added valuable inputs to many topics over the months.

[samurai2]

Yeh. Think its best i leave. Good luck boys. 

[Lucky]

On ‎5‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 8:17 AM, BhagatSingh said:

So here we have the word - ਹਰਿ - Hari

It is definitely wrong to pronounce this as Har ਹਰ because you are not pronouncing the matra there.

That is definitely a wrong way to pronounce it.

I'm no expert on language, but from what I know about the mantar "HARi" ..it is pronounced with the sihari   "ee" sound as Bhagat mentions.

With this specific mantar as well as other mantars there is the science behind them of "completion" The "completion" is about the rolling of the tongue on to the roof of the mouth. It only has to be slight and subtle, but without it the mantar would be incomplete.

I mentioned a long time ago of how I noticed the power of the 'HARi" mantar in my yoga classes. For those with activated pineal glands that drip with amrit/nectar/soma, they can notice how the jap of "HARi" can immediately stimulate the sweet taste of nectar. This ONLY works if you jap HARi with the slight "ee" sound that causes your tongue to make a slight roll on the roof of the mouth.   

Try it!.......

When saying "HAR", you  don't get that slight subtle roll that it finishes off with thanyou would get with saying the "ee" at the end. 

I was instructed that the HARi mantar must be done with the slight tongue roll on roof of the mouth, and this was done with uttering a slight but subtle "ee" sound at the end.

It's no wonder that in gurbani the "Hari" jap is mostly associated with references to amrit.  "amrit bani har har teree" ..."amrit har ka naam hai"  .."amrit shabad, amrit har bani"   and many more.

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

 

10 hours ago, Lucky said:

"amrit bani har har teree" ..."amrit har ka naam hai"  .."amrit shabad, amrit har bani"

I thought it would be a good exercise to go through these verses and their pronunciation.

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਬਾਣੀ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਤੇਰੀ ॥
Amrit baanee Hari Hari teree.

ਸੁਣਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਹੋਵੈ ਪਰਮ ਗਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ॥
Sune sune hovai param Gati meree.

Hari and Gati have the short e sound at the end, as part of the original word.

Sun means listen. Sune means sun ke, after listening. Adding the sihari here changes the meaning of the word and thus it is is critical to pronunciation.

This is why pronouncing Sihari is also key to understanding the meaning of the word.

 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਹਰਿ ਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਹੈ ਵਰਸੈ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਧਾਰਿ ॥
Amrit Hari kaa naam hai varsai kripa dhaari

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਦਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਹਰਿ ਆਤਮ ਰਾਮੁ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ॥੨॥
Naanak gurmukhi nadaree aya Hari aatam Raam Muraari

Hari, Dhaari and Muraari all have the short e sound at the end as part of the original word.

Dhaari as we know means a small stream of water.

Dhaari  also means one who has adopted the teachings as in Kesh-dhaari, Amrit-dhaari.

 

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਸਬਦੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਹਰਿ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
Amrit shabd amrit Hari baanee;

ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸੇਵਿਐ ਰਿਦੈ ਸਮਾਣੀ ॥
Satyeguri seviyai ridai smaanee.

Satyeguri - With ਸਤਿਗੁਰ people don't even pronounce the Sihari that is in the word. This sihari represents the short ya sound, as pointed out by Bhai Jagraj Singh. So it is Satyegur.

Satyegur means  the True Guide.

Now the Gur has a Sihari on it, and this changes the meaning of the word. Satyeguri means Satyegur di

Satyeguri seviyai ridai smaanee. Jo satyegur di seva karde hn, ohna de dil vich amrit shabad, amrit Hari baanee smaee hoee hai.

 

Some words have Sihari, short e sound (or as short ya sound) as part of the word.

Other words have SIhari to indicate a different meaning, this is why in spoken Gurmukhi it is very important to pronounce Sihari.

 

In kirtan many shabads are misunderstood because they are mispronounced. One has to look at the original gurbani and read all the Siharis to realize the original meaning.

Had the siharis been pronounced as we normally do in Punjabi, then the meaning would be clear upon the first listening.

@paapiman

No samprada is behind me, no one is except the grace of Akal Purakh sahib and an understanding of Gurmukhi grammar through Mahan kosh.

[samurai2]

On 6/6/2018 at 10:18 AM, Lucky said:

On 5/26/2018 at 4:17 PM, BhagatSingh said:

 

I'm no expert on language, but from what I know about the mantar "HARi" ..it is pronounced with the sihari   "ee" sound as Bhagat mentions.

Do you not think "ee" sound is from biharee?

On 6/6/2018 at 10:18 AM, Lucky said:

With this specific mantar as well as other mantars there is the science behind them of "completion" The "completion" is about the rolling of the tongue on to the roof of the mouth. It only has to be slight and subtle, but without it the mantar would be incomplete.

 

Yes. if you are talking about reciting manter via tongue and hitting certain meridian points in mouth so the vibration is close to dhur ki bani as can be,  travelling to the dhun etc, you of all ppl should know the importance of mohrani and gurbani pronunciation..

ill ask the same question i asked bhagat..i can appreciate its hard writing how you would pronounce a word hence the following eg.

I need clarification on something, which i think is very important in me understanding where you are coming from. 

When you write Hari , and pronounce it. Is the end pronounced 'ee'... the same as the following in the english language. All spelt with "i" but pronounced as ee

Mitsubishi - pronounced mitsubishee

kali- pronounced kalee

cont think of any..

Ashanti (the singer) pronounced ashantee

So Lucky boy very simple question...in the english alphabet how do you pronounce HARi? Is it Haree in accordance to the above examples (spelt as "i" but pronounced as "ee" or as Har-eh (or Har-e (sharp e).. 

On 6/6/2018 at 10:18 AM, Lucky said:

I mentioned a long time ago of how I noticed the power of the 'HARi" mantar in my yoga classes. For those with activated pineal glands that drip with amrit/nectar/soma, they can notice how the jap of "HARi" can immediately stimulate the sweet taste of nectar. This ONLY works if you jap HARi with the slight "ee" sound that causes your tongue to make a slight roll on the roof of the mouth

ONLY?.. be careful...

This is a personal experience. Some have got to the same heights as you have described in meditation section but doing mental japp..soo?? Many pursh have had no manter??soo??

But anyway please answer the above in terms of sihari..

[Lucky]

12 hours ago, samurai2 said:

On ‎6‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 2:18 AM, Lucky said:

 

Do you not think "ee" sound is from biharee?

Yes I do think so.

12 hours ago, samurai2 said:

So Lucky boy very simple question...in the english alphabet how do you pronounce HARi? Is it Haree in accordance to the above examples (spelt as "i" but pronounced as "ee" or as Har-eh (or Har-e (sharp e).. 

I see where you are coming from. 

What I wrote in my post is referring to HARi. When someone hears this, or lets say the sound coming out of my vocal chords, then it will be heard as HAR.  On a simple mono phone line, you would perceive it as HAR, since you can't hear the vibrating "ee" effect.  You wont hear me saying Haree as in a haree Krishna type chant.    Sound is a HAR and ending in a very subtle "ee" vibration, but to average joe, it still sounds like a straight HAR.  Key is to not finish it with a dead end "Rrr" but with R-ee. The subtle 'ee' comes with exhaling breath sound.  I think this is what you mean by sharp 'e'.

12 hours ago, samurai2 said:

ONLY?.. be careful...

This is a personal experience. Some have got to the same heights as you have described in meditation section but doing mental japp..soo?? Many pursh have had no manter??soo??

That wasn't my point. I have also invoked amrit in complete silence, just with rom rom.  The core of my Simran is mental, silent rom rom with gurushabad.  The point I was making was reference to the effectiveness of HARi if you are doing verbal jap. The effect by slight roll of tongue and finishing with subtle "ee" exhaling breath sound is significant.  Even though it is so delicate and quiet, it has the effect to strike the amrit naadis. It only works when one is at those levels with mann, and the mann has been cleansed enough.  It was at that time that I noticed there were a number of pangtees with 'amrit' and 'har' in same line. 

 

[samurai2]

4 hours ago, Lucky said:

16 hours ago, samurai2 said:

Do you not think "ee" sound is from biharee?

Yes I do think so.

hmm.. cool..  

a little lesson...siharee is with a little subtle "e"..."eh" if you like... biharee is a dragged out "e"..pronounced as "ee".. do you agree??

 

 

 

[samurai2]

On 6/13/2018 at 7:13 PM, samurai2 said:

I need clarification on something, which i think is very important in me understanding where you are coming from. 

When you write Hari , and pronounce it. Is the end pronounced 'ee'... the same as the following in the english language. All spelt with "i" but pronounced as ee

Mitsubishi - pronounced mitsubishee

kali- pronounced kalee

cont think of any..

Ashanti (the singer) pronounced ashantee

Why are you and your boyfriend avoiding this question??

Simple answer,,multiple choice if you like.. 

 

[Lucky]

15 hours ago, samurai2 said:

hmm.. cool..  

a little lesson...siharee is with a little subtle "e"..."eh" if you like... biharee is a dragged out "e"..pronounced as "ee".. do you agree??

Yeh, that's the difference, you can describe it as dragged out 'e'.  I know what you mean

Did i miss something? I haven't avoided no question, i explained the subject of siharee with reference to Har-i, as I understood it.  I haven't followed this thread in detail and I haven't got the time or energy either.  I've given all the input as per my understanding, since my punjabi reading is limited based only on what I've taught myself.

[samurai2]

15 hours ago, samurai2 said:

I need clarification on something, which i think is very important in me understanding where you are coming from. 

When you write Hari , and pronounce it. Is the end pronounced 'ee'... the same as the following in the english language. All spelt with "i" but pronounced as ee

Mitsubishi - pronounced mitsubishee

kali- pronounced kalee

cont think of any..

Ashanti (the singer) pronounced ashantee

@Lucky

Spell in english letters how you would pronounce Hari??

[samurai2]

8 hours ago, Lucky said:

I've given all the input as per my understanding, since my punjabi reading is limited based only on what I've taught myself.

Exactly. Taught yourself. 

people on here doubting Taksal santhiya based on their "own" understanding and teaching? Mate, its a fukin joke..

It's like a boy learning martial arts on youtube only to be found out in the dojo. Taksal is from the grandmaster. (if you do martial arts you will appreciate lineage and grandmasters)

This whole topic of "how to read gurbani" is a joke. To learn, there are places all over the world, it will not change due to one mans ego. 

Spiritual awareness/experiences does not automatically give you the right to know everything. When you talk about Hari/hareh in use of meditation and subtle experience is not the same as gurbani pronunciation.  pronounciation is for sangat with a "patthi" giving ucharan.. do you not get this?.. its not personal, its a seva..

 

 

[CuriousSeeker]

7 hours ago, samurai2 said:

Exactly. Taught yourself. 

people on here doubting Taksal santhiya based on their "own" understanding and teaching? Mate, its a fukin joke..

It's like a boy learning martial arts on youtube only to be found out in the dojo. Taksal is from the grandmaster. (if you do martial arts you will appreciate lineage and grandmasters)

This whole topic of "how to read gurbani" is a joke. To learn, there are places all over the world, it will not change due to one mans ego. 

Spiritual awareness/experiences does not automatically give you the right to know everything. When you talk about Hari/hareh in use of meditation and subtle experience is not the same as gurbani pronunciation.  pronounciation is for sangat with a "patthi" giving ucharan.. do you not get this?.. its not personal, its a seva..

 

 

As someone whos learned from taksal and various ustaads, even the many students of Sant Gurbachan Singh ji have differences in how they teach and pronounce things. There are many differences within "Taksal santhiya" as you call it. 

Only bringing this up as I dont understand the need for all the swearing you do and condescending tone of your posts.Especially on these forums as im pretty sure thats not the teachings of your vidhya guru or sggsji but your own ego.

[samurai2]

I do not know why you have conveniently jumped on this topic picking me out. The fact you have sat on your fat arse all this time when gurbani pronunciation has been questioned and only got involved for pointing an apparent energy tells me all i need to know. That's the reason for my "foul" language, people like you.  

Only bringing this up as I dont understand the need for all the swearing you do and condescending tone of your posts.Especially on these forums as im pretty sure thats not the teachings of your vidhya guru or sggsji but your own ego.

Have a break, you don't want me to get started. 

I'm only waiting for Lucky's response. He seems genuine.

[CuriousSeeker]

3 minutes ago, samurai2 said:

I do not know why you have conveniently jumped on this topic picking me out. The fact you have sat on your fat arse all this time when gurbani pronunciation has been questioned and only got involved for pointing an apparent energy tells me all i need to know. That's the reason for my "foul" language, people like you.  

Only bringing this up as I dont understand the need for all the swearing you do and condescending tone of your posts.Especially on these forums as im pretty sure thats not the teachings of your vidhya guru or sggsji but your own ego.

Have a break, you don't want me to get started. 

I'm only waiting for Lucky's response. He seems genuine.

Fair, you are who you are and lets us walk our paths.  

Only jumped in because you pointed to taksal santhiya and implied that it is uniform.  When that is far from the case, there are many differences within taksal, of pronunciations. Even chaal isnt uniform.

[samurai2]

2 minutes ago, CuriousSeeker said:

Fair, you are who you are and lets us walk our paths.  

Only jumped in because you pointed to taksal santhiya and implied that it is uniform.  When that is far from the case, there are many differences within taksal, of pronunciations. Even chaal isnt uniform.

Go on.. talk on differences..

Also give your opinion on siharahi.. or are you going to miss that....conveniently ??

 

[CuriousSeeker]

11 minutes ago, samurai2 said:

Go on.. talk on differences..

Also give your opinion on siharahi.. or are you going to miss that....conveniently ??

 

Just look at the pronunciation differences between Giani Surjit Singh Sodhi ji, Bhagat Jaswant Singh ji (gursevak) and Baba Baldev Singh ji jogewal. Also thats just within Damdami taksal.   If you compare to Sato Gali Wali taksal (shaheed bhai mani singh ji), you'll find even more differences.  

Even though imo its still best to learn  from an expierenced ustaad understand that not everyone can.  

As for sihari i personally  pronounce it subtle eh, but  if you listen to Bhagat Jaswant Singh jis, its not a subtle eh at all.  And thats okay too.   

[paapiman]

Bhagat Jaswant Singh jee emphasizes on the subtle pronunciations. I don't think other Taksali ustaads are against his way, but it is not possible to complete an Akhand Paath in 48 hrs or complete your nitnem in 1 hr using his method. Other Taksali ustads probably pronounce siharis and aukars in a very subtle and quick way.

IMHO, this cannot be considered as a major difference within Taksal.

 

Bhul chuk maaf