When to Pronounce Dadda ਦ as Za ਜ਼ - How to Read Guru Granth Sahib (Part 3)

[Xylitol]

On March 11, 2018 at 10:38 AM, paapiman said:

Do you have knowledge of other schools of thought?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Just the DDT style. Punjabi University of Patiala models their Punjabi and their attempts to standardize Punjabi on Taksal's santhya b/c they feel that the Taksal has preserved the original language best. 

[amardeep]

1 hour ago, Xylitol said:

Just the DDT style. Punjabi University of Patiala models their Punjabi and their attempts to standardize Punjabi on Taksal's santhya b/c they feel that the Taksal has preserved the original language best. 

That’s really interesting 

[BhagatSingh]

21 hours ago, Xylitol said:

Just the DDT style. Punjabi University of Patiala models their Punjabi and their attempts to standardize Punjabi on Taksal's santhya b/c they feel that the Taksal has preserved the original language best. 

How can I listen to Taksal santhya online?

[BhagatSingh]

On 4/8/2018 at 7:58 AM, paapiman said:

The Arabic word "Hadrat" or "Hadhrat" is pronounced as "Hazrat" in Urdu/Persian.

That explains why in Gurmukhi we say Z for these words because we were influenced by Persian and not Arabic.

In Arabic its not Hadrat or Hazrat but rather Hadhrat; Qazi is Qadhi.

If Gurus had known this, then they would have spelled such words with Dhadha, clearly.

However they spell these words with Dadda and more commonly Jajja. So it seems to me that they are indicating a Za sound.

 

[paapiman]

@BhagatSingh - Please have a look below.

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FGurbani_Santhya%2FBhindran_Taksal_Santhya

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

2 hours ago, paapiman said:

@BhagatSingh - Please have a look below.

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audio.php?q=f&f=%2FGurbani_Santhya%2FBhindran_Taksal_Santhya

Thanks for the link Paapiman.

One thing I like is that he teaches how to pronounce Siharis correctly and to enunciate words clearly but other than that basic stuff I am not impressed at all.

First of all -

Ik Onkar is not pronounced as Ik Oankar.

Aida is silent and is only a placeholder for Tippi.

2. He is not pronouncing any bindis even on words where clearly there is a bindi ie plural nouns.

These two things are common knowledge and seems to be lost on the paathi sahib.

3. We haven't even got to pronouncing Siharis and Aunkars at the end of words and pronouncing D/J as Z, and all that good stuff, which are not common knowledge.

The rest of the recitation is the same as how everyone else does it. If this is the best we've got, then I am not impressed by what our best is offering.

[BhagatSingh]

Quote

in Turkish as Nazar (nazar is from Arabic نَظَر Nadhar which means eye vision or eyesight), similarly in Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi the word Nazar

Source- https://www.islamicjeweler.com/2014/03/14/evil-eye-nadhar/

ض 

is the letter Dadh in Nadhar

نَظَر

I am starting to think that all the D sounds are not Z.

[paapiman]

On 4/9/2018 at 3:25 PM, BhagatSingh said:

If this is the best we've got, then I am not impressed by what our best is offering.

Well, that is how the Almighty God (Tenth Master) taught his Sikhs or at least that was very close to this.

If you are not impressed by it, then Daas would like to reiterate what you had said in a different topic to me.

"The sooner you can make peace with this order of God the better."

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[samurai2]

On 5/11/2018 at 5:45 PM, paapiman said:

If you are not impressed by it, then Daas would like to reiterate what you had said in a different topic to me.

"The sooner you can make peace with this order of God the better."

hahha classic, good on you paapiman. using his own weapon against him. now that's a Yodha trait ( the biggest yodeh/warriors were those who battled with their tongue/pen-baba nanak comes to mind)

Fhagat singh does have a few tricks up his sleeve.. next one you should use is that a certain someone whispered it to you so.. "you have to believe it" as you are the chosen one..

Your perseverance has got my admiration. 

[chatanga1]

Ramazan. Ramadan.

[BhagatSingh]

On 5/11/2018 at 12:45 PM, paapiman said:

If you are not impressed by it, then Daas would like to reiterate what you had said in a different topic to me.

"The sooner you can make peace with this order of God the better."

Indeed this is the order of God.

Everything is by the order of God.

It is by the order of God that a leaf moves, that a bird chirps, and that we mispronounce our own scriptures.

There is the hand of God behind everything. The sooner you can make peace with it the better.

I made peace with the pronunciation problem a long time ago.

 

That said, you can still criticize it.

And when you do there is the Order, again. It is the order of God that causes you to do it.

The way a bird builds her nest, twig by twig, against the degenerative forces that seek to break it, both are by the order of God.

Exactly in that way , we can reach a higher level of pronunciation. It is also by the order of God.

Everything is by the order of God. The sooner you can make peace with it the better.

 

Paapiman, you might now ask -

How do you make peace with something and be unimpressed with it at the same time? Isn't that a contradiction?

Haha indeed it does seem so but to explain that it's not, would require another lengthy response.

So I can see why you said in the other topic that this topic requires a new thread.

It really does. XD

Will you make the thread or shall I?

Quote

Well, that is how the Almighty God (Tenth Master) taught his Sikhs or at least that was very close to this.

Saying that Guru Gobind Singh ji taught this incorrect way of pronouncing Gurbani, is making a claim without evidence.

 

On 5/17/2018 at 10:47 AM, chatanga1 said:

Ramazan. Ramadan. 

Yes. I am starting to see this pattern of pronunciation that changes from Arabic to Urdu.

Also see Nadar below. It has the Dadh character in  Arabic version as well.

The D -> Z phenomenon may not have been as widely present during the time of Gurus.

On 4/19/2018 at 8:14 PM, BhagatSingh said:

ض 

is the letter Dadh in Nadhar

نَظَر

I am starting to think that all the D sounds are not Z.

 

Perhaps the ਦ sound in  ਨਦਰੀ, ਹਾਦਰਾ, ਹਦੂਰਿ and ਕਾਦੀਆ are all stressed Dadh sounds and not Z.

But now what I find interesting is that Guru Sahib are using ਦ to represent it and not ਧ, which is modern Punjabi makes the Arabic Dadh sound.

 

When I think about that, I wonder -

What is the significance of this?

Why use ਦ to represent the Arabic Dadh character when ਧ already makes that exact sound?

This is something I have been thinking about recently.

 

One explanation that I think is likely is this - in Old Punjabi ਧ was Aspirated and did not make the stressed Arabic Dadh sound like it does in Modern Punjabi.

So it would make no sense to write ਨਧਰ because it would be said as - Na-dHa-ra - with that  aspirated breathy Ha of dHa.

If so then it would make more sense to write it as ਨਦਰ.
 

And if ਧ is Aspirated then I wonder whether the other characters like - ਘ ਝ ਢ - are Aspirated as well?

So these are the questions I am wrestling with now.

The answers to which, radically changes our understanting of how to pronounce Gurbani!

[samurai2]

@paapiman- dont let him manipulate you with the artistic words....

tip to paapiman,  use the same psychology against Phaghat Singh.. are you a phudu?

Everything is the order of god.

But Phaghat Singhs thinking from what i get from his above statement is,,  So a girl gets raped.. but its the order for the girl to get raped? ("gods" order)

You sikh awareness people are soo pussified you cannot call a mans bluff...fukin hell mate..

Well now i am at peace, its god order that children get raped..by 60 year old men.... now i am "aware"...

 

 

 

[BhagatSingh]

@samurai2

1. No one has ever described my words as artistic. I will take that as a compliment. Thank you.

 

2. Everything is by the order of God.

So @paapiman was correct to tell me to make peace with the current way we pronounce Gurbani.

 

3. The sooner you can make peace with this order of God the better.

This is not a weapon that one should use to harm others or deny their feelings regarding unjust actions e.g. rape.

It is a weapon one should use to cut down their own mind-made ego and become truthful.

 

4. This principle is mentioned in the first two pauris of Jap ji sahib.

It is clear from your post that you have not read them.

So let's read them together right now -

Make sure to pronounce the siharis.

 

Sochai sochi na hovaee, je sochee lakh waar;

chupai chup na hovaaee, je lae rahan liv taar;

Bhukhian bhukkh na utree, je banhan puriyan bhaar.

Sehas sianpa lakh hoe, tan ikk na chalai naali;

Kiv sachiara hoeeai, kiv koorhai tutai paali;

Hukmi raza-e chalna, Nanak lkhia naali. 1 .

 

Hukmee hovni aakaar, hukam na kahia jaee;

Hukmee hovni jeev, hukmi milai vadeaee.

Hukmee uttam neech, hukmi likhi dukh sukh paeeyeh;

Ikkna hukmee bakhsheesh, ikki hukmee sada bhavaeeyeh.

Hukmai andari sabh ko, bahari hukam na koe;

Nanak hukmai je bujhai, ta haumai kahai na koe. 2 .

 

 

[samurai2]

14 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

No one has ever described my words as artistic. I will take that as a compliment. Thank you.

 

Not a compliment.

With compliments from sikh awareness's fans of your work, i find it only appropriate to introduce your words as such. Little do i think  your words be recognised as artistic. 

It looks like you are either accusing Guru Gobind Singh Ji's pronunciation wrong or his sons?

 

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, samurai2 said:

Not a compliment.

With compliments from sikh awareness's fans of your work, i find it only appropriate to introduce your words as such. Little do i think  your words be recognised as artistic. 

I take that as a compliment too.

ਉਸਤਤਿ ਨਿੰਦਾ ਗੁਰਿ ਸਮ ਜਾਣਾਈ ਇਸੁ ਜੁਗ ਮਹਿ ਲਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਲੈ ਜਾਇ ॥੧॥

Ustati Ninda Guri sum jaanaaee is yug meh  laahaa Hari japi lai jae .1.

 

1 hour ago, samurai2 said:

It looks like you are either accusing Guru Gobind Singh Ji's pronunciation wrong or his sons?

I don't believe Guru Gobind Singh ji or his sons taught this.

I believe it was standardized in that way much later.

And I believe it was done because of Aunkars.

 

You see sometimes Aunkars (at the end of the word) are pronounced and sometimes they are not.

So the rule was created to not pronounce them to avoid confusion.

 

I am not sure how we arrived at not pronouncing Siharis.

Perhaps it was due the evolution of spoken Punjabi.

Perhaps it was due to lack of understanding.

 

But one thing is for sure - The pronunciation of Siharis is the key to understanding the meaning of the word.

So it would be good for scholarly Sikhs to start taking Gurbani pronunciation seriously and start studying the puratan Punjabi laguage.

[samurai2]

on a joke note, get dal singh to back you

[samurai2]

@BhagatSingh

In terms of santhiya in taksal baba Deep Singh ji took responsibility, and up until jarnail singh the santhiya was as Maharaj Gobind Singh taught it ..  your contextualisation is what the word in itself is defined as such..(personal)- good in nirgun but questionable in sargun

A little example of har with a siharee is with a subtle  re..  as in har/hare (eh)..hareh if you like..not hari- as in haree (bihari)-

 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

34 minutes ago, samurai2 said:

hareh if you like..not hari- as in haree (bihari)-

Thanks for that. It's a very subtle sound. It's like a shortened version of ੇ.

Even, if someone pronounces it as Har, that would be fine, but Hari and Haree are both wrong (for ਹਰਿ).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Singh123456777]

First time i have seen somebody change gurbani so blatantly

[BhagatSingh]

On 5/28/2018 at 4:32 PM, Singh123456777 said:

First time i have seen somebody change gurbani so blatantly

Do you know that Gurbani has words from different languages?

My view is that these words should be pronounced the way they are in their native language (or as close to that as possible).

[Singh123456777]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Do you know that Gurbani has words from different languages?

My view is that these words should be pronounced the way they are in their native language (or as close to that as possible).

Yes obviously gurbani has words from different languages, but a dadda does not sound like a zazza. If guru sahib wanted to have the sound of a zazza he would have used a zazza. Read zafarnama and see how guru sahib utilized those farsi words

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, Singh123456777 said:

Yes obviously gurbani has words from different languages, but a dadda does not sound like a zazza. If guru sahib wanted to have the sound of a zazza he would have used a zazza.

Why would they? There is no Zazza is the script of Guru Granth Sahib. They either use Dadda or Jajja, which are close enough.

Just like they don't use Addak or Bindi or Pairi Haha, a lot of the time but it is there.

Bindi and Pairi Haha are in the script but like Zazza, Addak is not.

Quote

Read zafarnama and see how guru sahib utilized those farsi words

Please elaborate.

[Singh123456777]

If you read zafarnama you would see how guru sahib has used words like zazza etc. Kadi dasam di bani vi parlo

[BhagatSingh]

19 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

If you read zafarnama you would see how guru sahib has used words like zazza etc. Kadi dasam di bani vi parlo

Par lavange maharaj but Guru Granth Sahib is older. They don't use Jajja pair bindi.

They just use Jajja and possibly Dadda, wherever there is a Za sound.

You have to remember that back in the goold old days, everything was Oral and people didn't exactly know how to read or write.

So when Guru Granth Sahib was written, Guru sahib assumed you would know how to pronounce the words already.

It is completely flipped on its head nowadays. We have no strong oral tradition of those Bhasha, we have no idea idea how to pronounce the words and so we read whatever we want into it.

So I am trying to find out how to read Gurbani accurately.

I use Kahn SIngh ji's Mahan Kosh to figure out the pronunciations.

[Singh123456777]

Yea but guru sahib also created taksal as well as the nirmala samprda to teach sikhs this.