When to Pronounce Dadda ਦ as Za ਜ਼ - How to Read Guru Granth Sahib (Part 3)

[BhagatSingh]

25 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Yea but guru sahib also created taksal as well as the nirmala samprda to teach sikhs this. 

Well I don't want to say that they are all wrong and I am right because when I read srigranth.org I obtain my understanding from them.

I am a big fan of the Fareed Kote Teeka which was written by a nirmalas.

So I get my knowledge from them and they know infinitely more than me.

 

However the things I have found out cast a huge shadow of doubt on the current way we pronounce gurbani.

And I am trying to find out -

1. What is the correct way? because Gurbani pronunciation is extremely important.

and

2. Where did we go wrong? because that will help us understand why our standardized pronunciation needs to change.

[Singh123456777]

5 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Well I don't want to say that they are all wrong and I am right because when I read srigranth.org I obtain my understanding from them.

I am a big fan of the Fareed Kote Teeka which was written by a nirmalas.

So I get my knowledge from them and they know infinitely more than me.

 

However the things I have found out cast a huge shadow of doubt on the current way we pronounce gurbani.

And I am trying to find out -

1. What is the correct way? because Gurbani pronunciation is extremely important.

and

2. Where did we go wrong? because that will help us understand why our standardized pronunciation needs to change.

Why dont you talk to an actual ustad from the nirmaley or taksal? Instead of coming to conclusions by yourself 

[BhagatSingh]

11 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Why dont you talk to an actual ustad from the nirmaley or taksal?

I would love to. How would I go about doing that?

11 hours ago, Singh123456777 said:

Instead of coming to conclusions by yourself 

I must correct you there, I am not "by myself" lol.

1. I have got the literature of Nirmalas and Mahan kosh with me.

2. I have got that Force, which animates us, forcing me learn more about this.

3. Much of what I say is already rooted in our language.

For example, with the Sihari which I am 99% sure is pronounced, we already pronounce it in everyday life.

The example I like to use is - ਮੂਰਤਿ - which we pronounce as - moorti.

And we say -

ਨਾਲਿ ਚਲ - naale chal
ਸਾਡੇ ਘਰਿ ਅਾਉ - saade ghare aao
ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰੋ - bhagti karo

We already pronounce the sihari everywhere.

4. We already know the Sihari changes the meaning of the word, so it is critical to understanding the spoken word.

ਭਗਤ bhagat has a different meaning than ਭਗਤਿ bhagti.


5. It all started when Bhai Jagraj Singh from Basics of Sikhi made the comment in one of his talks that the sihari on ਸਤਿ indicates the yayya.

 

And here I am now.

[Singh123456777]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

I would love to. How would I go about doing that?

You live in brampton so you can meet the santheya ustad at malton Bhai Surjeet Singh Ji. He is really amazing. There are many other santheya ustads in brampton as well such as Bhagat Jaswant Singh Ji etc. 

Doing kojh by themselves is not bad but it is much easier to learn many concepts when a person has a vidya ustad. So please go and actually learn from somebody cause a vidya ustad can give you insight on many things.

[BhagatSingh]

1 hour ago, Singh123456777 said:

You live in brampton so you can meet the santheya ustad at malton Bhai Surjeet Singh Ji. He is really amazing. There are many other santheya ustads in brampton as well such as Bhagat Jaswant Singh Ji etc. 

Doing kojh by themselves is not bad but it is much easier to learn many concepts when a person has a vidya ustad. So please go and actually learn from somebody cause a vidya ustad can give you insight on many things.

Hmm ok I will speak to him.

[paapiman]

@BhagatSingh - You need someone who has extensive knowledge of etymology. My guess is that some Taksali ustaads might not have that knowledge. If you ask them too many questions, they might just say, "that's how it is taught in the Taksal". I have never met Bhai Surjeet Singh jee Malton, but you can try meeting him and having a discussion about it. It is possible that it might take you years to come to the same conclusions (on your own) that a scholar might explain you in a few days or months.  

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 5/29/2018 at 6:26 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Do you know that Gurbani has words from different languages?

My view is that these words should be pronounced the way they are in their native language (or as close to that as possible).

There are so many languages bro in Gurbani. If we had to learn to pronounce them in their native languages, becoming a Paathi (or doing Paath of Pothis) would become a pretty difficult task.

IMHO, Maharaaj standardized pronunciation of Gurbani by introducing Muharni, with a few exceptions.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

@BhagatSingh - You need someone who has extensive knowledge of etymology. My guess is that some Taksali ustaads might not have that knowledge. If you ask them too many questions, they might just say, "that's how it is taught in the Taksal". I have never met Bhai Surjeet Singh jee Malton, but you can try meeting him and having a discussion about it. It is possible that it might take you years to come to the same conclusions (on your own) that a scholar might explain you in a few days or months. 

Yea it took me years to confirm whether Siharis should be pronounced.

I wouldn't know where to begin with the topic.

I guess my main question would be - why do you not pronounce the siharis at the end of the word when it is critical to the meaning?

I have never found a good answer for that.

Anyone of your santhya teachers know the answer to this?

3 hours ago, paapiman said:

There are so many languages bro in Gurbani. If we had to learn to pronounce them in their native languages, becoming a Paathi (or doing Paath of Pothis) would become a pretty difficult task.

Do you think becoming a paathi should be an easy task?

[paapiman]

10 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Anyone of your santhya teachers know the answer to this?

Siharis are pronounced in Taksal. 

10 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Do you think becoming a paathi should be an easy task?

It shouldn't be a very hard task either.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

1 minute ago, paapiman said:

Siharis are pronounced in Taksal.

Well in the audio sample you posted in the other thread, there were several issues I had with the Taksal's way of pronouncing things.

Quote

It shouldn't be a very hard task either.

Becoming a patthi should be a difficult task.

You should be well versed with the words that are in Gurbani that come from different languages. And you should know how they are pronounced in those languages.

If you are the Patthi, you have a big responsibility on your shoulders, and if you are being lazy about it, that's not good for the panth.

The individual panth members should also learn the correct pronunciation of Gurbani.

But the primary responsibility falls on the scholars.

[Singh123456777]

Currently the student of Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji is in Toronto. baba baldev singh jogewala is here for some time now. Go and ask your questions to him

[paapiman]

On 5/31/2018 at 11:39 AM, BhagatSingh said:

Becoming a patthi should be a difficult task.

You should be well versed with the words that are in Gurbani that come from different languages. And you should know how they are pronounced in those languages.

If you are the Patthi, you have a big responsibility on your shoulders, and if you are being lazy about it, that's not good for the panth.

The individual panth members should also learn the correct pronunciation of Gurbani.

But the primary responsibility falls on the scholars.

Taksali Santheya is no easy task. It does take a lot of dedication and hard work to become a Pathi. But the way you seem to be going about it (which possibly could be a wrong approach) is making a difficult task harder.

Just go and talk with Gyani Surjit Singh jee or Baba Baldev Singh jee (student of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh jee Bhindranwale). They might be able to steer you in the right direction.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 5/31/2018 at 11:39 AM, BhagatSingh said:

Well in the audio sample you posted in the other thread, there were several issues I had with the Taksal's way of pronouncing things.

Daas would suggest that you make a list of your concerns regarding Taksaali Santheya and then go discus those with the Mahapurakhs mentioned above.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[BhagatSingh]

17 hours ago, paapiman said:

Taksali Santheya is no easy task.

What makes you say that?

Taksali way of pronunciation seems easy to me. Maybe not for those who grew up in the west, but it's very easy for a punjabi speaker.

17 hours ago, paapiman said:

Daas would suggest that you make a list of your concerns regarding Taksaali Santheya and then go discus those with the Mahapurakhs mentioned above.

Sure. But first I want to poke as many holes in to my own theory as possible.

Because if my hypothesis is wrong, then there is no point in going higher up.

I want to make sure it stands from all possible angles of attack, only then it's worth sharing with scholars.

So for that I need your help.

[Singh123456777]

Looks like it would destroy your ego if you go see someone who actually has real knowledge, campared to you. Thats why you dont want to see Gyani ji or Baba Ji, cause your ego would get bruised

[amardeep]

Bhagat Singh: There is a long and stron tradition behind the Taksal, - their organization however has changed over the centuries. During the Misl and Maharaja period they were known as the Giani samprada or Shaheed Samprada (due to their links with Baba Deep Singh who was the mukhi of the Shahedi misl). They used to be more of a decentralised organisation going from village to village, whereas today they have headquarters etc. Many nirmale in history have wrongfully been labelled nirmale, when they were in fact part of the Giani/Taksal Samprada - the most famous being Kavi Santokh Singh and also Badan Singh (if I remember correctly) who wrote the Faridkot Teeka.

Their main claim to fame has been the tradition of santhia and arth going back to Guru Gobind Singh through Bhai Mani Singh.

[paapiman]

4 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

What makes you say that?

Daas will give you an idea, to illustrate the difficulty level of Taksaali santheya.

Within the first 5 Pauris of Sri Japjee Sahib (excluding Sri Mool Mantar), there are more than 25 tips that have to be followed for correct pronunciation. Just imagine how many tips a Paathi will have to remember for the entire Nitnem.

Anyways, Daas thinks that this discussion will be more fruitful after you have had a conversation with Gyani jee or Baba jee. You should have enough material (like the stuff mentioned in these topics) with you to take to your meeting with them.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[Soulfinder]

The best way to learn gurbani is the way i did for a new starter.

 

As i do my nitnem banis in roman english i used audio recordings of Bhai Jarnail Singh Taksali, Gyani Thakur Singh and what other paathi i would like.

What i would do is get the script in roman english and use the audio files to repeat the sayings and try to make a copy of the sound whilst hearing and repeating the gurbani.

 

I did this for all my banis that daas knows and does when or what my health allows.

 

I have plans to do this for more further banis for which i hope my health gives me saath for.

[paapiman]

On 6/3/2018 at 5:17 PM, amardeep said:

Badan Singh (if I remember correctly) who wrote the Faridkot Teeka.

Wasn't Gyani Badan Singh jee a Nirmale scholar?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

8 hours ago, paapiman said:

Wasn't Gyani Badan Singh jee a Nirmale scholar?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

I think he was a taksali but normally claimed a nirmala like kavi santokh singh.  Need to check my notes

[Soulfinder]

If you want to learn Gurbani and if you live in Toronto try to meet Bhagat Jaswant Singh Ji Khalsa as they were a student of Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji Bhindrawale. They had done sewa of making audio recordings using the means in the 60's of Baba Ji's katha which today are available to sangat online.

 

If You want here is a Ang by Ang Sehaj Paath with Audio done by Bhagat Ji himself.

http://www.gursevak.com/readsggs

  

[BhagatSingh]

On 6/3/2018 at 5:17 PM, amardeep said:

Bhagat Singh: There is a long and stron tradition behind the Taksal, - their organization however has changed over the centuries. During the Misl and Maharaja period they were known as the Giani samprada or Shaheed Samprada (due to their links with Baba Deep Singh who was the mukhi of the Shahedi misl). They used to be more of a decentralised organisation going from village to village, whereas today they have headquarters etc. Many nirmale in history have wrongfully been labelled nirmale, when they were in fact part of the Giani/Taksal Samprada - the most famous being Kavi Santokh Singh and also Badan Singh (if I remember correctly) who wrote the Faridkot Teeka.

Their main claim to fame has been the tradition of santhia and arth going back to Guru Gobind Singh through Bhai Mani Singh.

Bhaji, thanks for the background info. It's good to know.

However.

Let's take the first two akshar Guru Granth Sahib.

Ik Onkar

Why are our "scholars" pronouncing this as Ik Oaankar?

Anyone who knows even the basics of Gurmukhi knows that this pronunciation is wrong.

 

On 6/3/2018 at 7:03 PM, paapiman said:

Within the first 5 Pauris of Sri Japjee Sahib (excluding Sri Mool Mantar), there are more than 25 tips that have to be followed for correct pronunciation.

Please list them out. Let's see what we are working with.

 

On 6/3/2018 at 4:41 PM, Singh123456777 said:

Looks like it would destroy your ego if you go see someone who actually has real knowledge, campared to you. Thats why you dont want to see Gyani ji or Baba Ji, cause your ego would get bruised

I already said I would love to talk to them.

I'll be the first to admit I don't know everything. My knowledge regarding this is a work in progress. I am constantly learning and the information I find is like finding crude oil. That's why I am here trying to refine that oil by look at all possible angles of attack, all possible weaknesses in the hypothesis, and taking guidance from Akal Purakh sahib himself.

Singh, it is very easy to kick someone who is already down, and who is trying to get up on their feet and find their way in to new territory.

[paapiman]

2 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Please list them out. Let's see what we are working with.

Please have a look below (tips are mentioned below the verses):

http://gursevak.com/readsggs

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 6/3/2018 at 2:33 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Taksali way of pronunciation seems easy to

Santheya also involves learning about vishraams (aradh, alap, chaal, etc), which are taught in Taksal. Therefore, Daas would say that Taksali santheya is not an easy task. 

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[amardeep]

Quote

 

Bhaji, thanks for the background info. It's good to know.

However.

Let's take the first two akshar Guru Granth Sahib.

Ik Onkar

Why are our "scholars" pronouncing this as Ik Oaankar?

Anyone who knows even the basics of Gurmukhi knows that this pronunciation is wrong.

 

I dont understand? How else would you pronounce it? It is pronounced such because that is how it is to be pronounced, as testified by scholars throughout the centurues from Bhai Gurdas to Kavi Santokh Singh all the way till today.

 

Bhai Gurdas: ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਇਕਾਂਗ ਲਿਖਿ ਊੜਾ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਾਇਆ।

Kavi Santokh Singh: ਦੋਹਰਾ: ਏਕੁੰਕਾਰਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੂ ਤਿਹਿ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ਸਚੁ ਹੋਇ,  ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਕੀ ਫਤੇ ਵਿਘਨ ਵਿਨਾਸ਼ਨ ਸੋਇ