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Shivam Kumar

What are your thoughts about Perfect Living Masters?

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According to what I know till now, one cannot raise his consciousness above the mind’s creation by himself. Causal plane is the ultimate level, upto which one can raise his consciousness using mind. To go beyond that is impossible without the pull of Love from the other side. And a Perfect Living Master (PLM) does the same for us. Beyond the Causal Plane we shed all the coverings and experience our true nature, the Soul. So a PLM is essential for self realization. 

What are your views about this? 

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Sikh Religion does not give importance to physical form  .For SiKhs ,Shabad(Spoken Word) is the Guru .Even the Living master will impart his love and blessing through shabad.and gurmantra .

ਸਬਦੁ ਨ ਜਾਣਹਿ ਸੇ ਅੰਨੇ ਬੋਲੇ ਸੇ ਕਿਤੁ ਆਏ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥

Those who do not know the Shabad are spirtially blind and deaf;

what for did they come into the world (sggs 601)

ਨਾਨਕ ਜੁਗਿ ਜੁਗਿ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਪਾਲਾ ॥: 

O Nanak, throughout the ages, the Lord of the World is my Gur (sggs 943).

 

And there are very rare  Perfect Living Masters .

Blessing

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In the Sikh dharm there are many realised sants. However, in this dharm there role is more to help join you with the powerhouse of Gurbani b/c any living master, no matter how realized, will eventually leave their body while Guru Granth Sahib ji will remain. 

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17 hours ago, das said:

1. All of the 10 Gurus did have Spiritual-Master even though Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was present (Gurgaddi was not given till 10th patshah).

Do you mean that Satguru Sri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj (sargun roop of Almighty Waheguru) had a spiritual master? or did I misunderstand you?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 4/25/2018 at 8:56 PM, das said:

In order to really answer this question in black-and-white; 2 things are required:

- The person answering the question should have visited/reached the Sachkhand. Because without actually reaching there, how could one tell what path to take?
- Plus, He/She is willing to answer the question from truthful point of view; instead of answering for the sake of questioner's spiritual progress (so that the questioner's belief's are not shattered; but sometimes they need to be shattered).

As you can see from the above: Expecting a real answer from any internet forum or from a normal person is not going to work.

Therefore it implies that both parties (pro-living-master vs anti-living-masters) arguments are sheer understandings of their beliefs at this-point-in-time. Sometimes one party wins because they presented good arguments, but sometimes the other party wins. All in all, its like cheering for a sporting event from a distance. Pick the team, Join the team, and then cheer without pointing fingers at other team.

My current understanding is:

First let's sort out the definitions first:
Perfect-Living-Master = Sant = Brahmgyani = Guru = Satguru = Spiritual-Master = Spiritual-Teacher = The one who has already reached the Nij ghar (Sachkhand or whatsoever that place is called).

1. All of the 10 Gurus did have Spiritual-Master even though Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was present (Gurgaddi was not given till 10th patshah).
2. All the Puran Sants in sikhism and also in other religions did have a Spiritual-Master.
3. In the whole Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it is nowhere mentioned that a Living-Person is not required. But there are many places where the importance of Sants are disclosed and their society is recommended.
4. Without the Sant/Guru, the spiritual progress is possible only upto certain point but in order to reach the ultimate truth, a Living-Sant is required.
5. For Anti-Living-Master party, they always say Shabad is the Guru; but we need to digest this: even the real knowledge as defined/shown in Guru Granth Sahib Ji cannot be fully understood without Sants. e.g The same tuk/line which till yesterday meant something different, but as we progress the meaning changes. In the same vein, how could we be so sure that our understanding of the same tuk will not be changed on next big spiritual stage? In other words, our understanding is always relative.  If our understanding is relative, then who would have the real knowledge? Saints........ There is a reason elders have said: There is only one Truth and that Truth could only be found by the help of person who are the truth and not who know the truth.

Everyone is entitled to its own understanding. Problem comes when we try to define the things as we understood and then try to enforce our thinking to others, saying that we're right in our understanding....thereby missing the whole point of the discussion and thus start debating instead of discussing. The real intention should have been to discuss the best possible way.

 

 

1 hour ago, das said:

Yes, as per the sakhi, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj had a Spiritual Master/Guru (in Sakar form) and He did NOT start the udasis before getting initiation. Here are more details:

Guru Nanak Dev Ji used to take bath in River Vae (in Sultanpur) everyday. One day He went in river and did not come back for 3 days. During this time He went to Sachkhand to meet Himself (His Self in base form). The Nirankar (in Sakar form) asked His form (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) why He had not started preaching the jiva till this age; to which Guru Nanak Dev Ji told Him that there is a rule in lower worlds (Mat Lok) that one needs to have Guru. To this Nirankar (in Sakar form) agreed to be Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Guru. And gave BabaJi the updesh of "Satnaam" and then the Mool-Mantar (till Gurparshad).

 

Das Jee,

I just feel like congratulating you, for such fantastic, simple, yet fair and objective  posts above.

From my side I give you 10 out of 10 marks.

Stay blessed.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

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16 hours ago, das said:

Yes, as per the sakhi, Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaaj had a Spiritual Master/Guru (in Sakar form) and He did NOT start the udasis before getting initiation. Here are more details:

Guru Nanak Dev Ji used to take bath in River Vae (in Sultanpur) everyday. One day He went in river and did not come back for 3 days. During this time He went to Sachkhand to meet Himself (His Self in base form). The Nirankar (in Sakar form) asked His form (Guru Nanak Dev Ji) why He had not started preaching the jiva till this age; to which Guru Nanak Dev Ji told Him that there is a rule in lower worlds (Mat Lok) that one needs to have Guru. To this Nirankar (in Sakar form) agreed to be Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Guru. And gave BabaJi the updesh of "Satnaam" and then the Mool-Mantar (till Gurparshad).

This sakhi may have been watered down for the average person.

I have heard two deeper versions.

1. Gurumaa states that when one does intense bhagti and enters Samadhi then it can take a couple of days to come back out of that stage. The 3 days of Guru ji missing could signify that he went into the deepest Samadhi for 3 days.

2. When a person reaches deepest levels of naam a stage arrives when the 5 elements separate or merge to together making you invisible as your being merges into nirgun form. The 5 elements can then be brought back together at will and you reappear in sargun form.

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2 hours ago, Sat1176 said:

This sakhi may have been watered down for the average person.

You may be right, but all the interpretations (how and where BabaJi went or Samadhi etc.) has one common element and we're missing that by indulging in how and where. i.e He took instructions from His Guru (call it Nirankar, Sakar). He may have gone to Sachkand or in Samadhi on Nirankar or something like this.

Moreover, there are other pointers that we can take from Guru Nanak Dev Ji's:

- He started udasis only after this incidence

- In all of Guru Ji's bani, he did recommended the society of Sants

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56 minutes ago, das said:

You may be right, but all the interpretations (how and where BabaJi went or Samadhi etc.) has one common element and we're missing that by indulging in how and where. i.e He took instructions from His Guru (call it Nirankar, Sakar).

Wouldn't that imply there were two entites, Guru and Nirankar and that Guru ji never totally merged or one and the same. My understanding was there is only one Waheguru, and that Guru ji reached that pinnacle state of experience and realisation and from that moment they set off to share and spread that realisation.

Plus doesn't Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji state in Sidh Gosht that his guru is, "Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela"

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3 hours ago, Sat1176 said:

Wouldn't that imply there were two entites,

Yes, it does imply that there were two entities from OUR-point-of-view as both of them are playing their part in the big plan. The two entities are: GuruJi as we know Him and His upper state manifestation Akaal (in Sakar roop).

Qus: Now the question arises why there is a need to exist in some form/shape. Nirankar could just sort out everything (punish wrong, reward good, mukti etc. etc.) by just a furna without ever taking a form; why HE need to send Gurus/Sants in the first place in the lower words to help souls to remember their Nij ghar?

Ans to me: I still have hard time to see all the sufferings around the world (child raps, children hungry, and so on....) and still believe that there is God (the way we perceive Him). I can't remember the tuk which says something like: "Bhagat ke bandi kaun chudave......" which literally means who would save us from the order of Bhagats.

In order to calm down my monkey mind, I tell him.....Kaal (Time/Mind) did the worship of Nirankar and won the reward of the rulership of 3 worlds and have also taken certain promises from Nirankar. Now, the Nirankar does have to fulfill all His promises towards Kaal along with a plan to make sure that the Jeev Atmas does have a chance to come back without breaking the protocols of lower words.

So, in other words, Gurus/Sants/Form-Shapes are there to make sure that we understand as per our limited senses. So, it means in order not to break the protocols of lower-worlds, Nirankar needs to tone down in chain-reaction to Nirankar --> Akaal --> Guru Nanak --> and so on.....i.e Middle Pillar path within the 3 worlds. Same way we have to be at the child's level to teach him something which he'll always remember; we cannot afford to stay at our level and expect that the child would understand. May be that's the reason Guru Nanak Dev Ji said:

ਮਃ  ੫  ॥
ਨਾਨਕ  ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ  ਭੇਟਿਐ  ਪੂਰੀ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਜੁਗਤਿ  ॥
O Nanak, meeting the True Guru, one comes to know the Perfect Way.

ਹਸੰਦਿਆ  ਖੇਲੰਦਿਆ  ਪੈਨੰਦਿਆ  ਖਾਵੰਦਿਆ  ਵਿਚੇ  ਹੋਵੈ  ਮੁਕਤਿ  ॥੨॥
While laughing, playing, dressing and eating, he is liberated. ||2||

 

3 hours ago, Sat1176 said:

Plus doesn't Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji state in Sidh Gosht that his guru is, "Shabad Guru, Surat Dhun Chela"

I asked the exact same question to Spiritual guide couple of years back and the response was something along with lines: It was supposed to be an example so that we can understand and not the only truth.

Actually, if we take this tuk at face-value (without going into deep), then we do have questions:
- Where is the Shabad? We might be very quick to say: It's within us......but still the question remains: there are so many stages/states/levels with so many different dhunis and so on. We may wrongfully call any sound that we're hearing in meditation as Shabad; but who is going to tell us the difference between real Shabad vs others?
- Surat needs to follow the Duni (but which duni and what place). It is a Maya/Illusion world, without the real Sant, it is very easy to get distracted by false illusions. How do we know that the Source from which Duni is coming is appropriate and not leading to dead-end? And even if the Duni/shabad that Guru Nanak Dev Ji is talking about is the same as we understood. Duni is a big thing, but our useful/useless mind can't even distinguish between simple optical illusions, what to talk about THE SHABAD.

Moreover, even Shabad cannot travel to the Nirankar. Shabad is the boat which will carry us across the ocean whose malah(driver) should be the Guru/Sant but once we cross the ocean (3 worlds) then the purpose of Shabad/boat is served and we no longer have to carry the Shabad; same way as we don't carry the boat on shoulders after crossing the river. Then it is Guru/Sant's responsibility to do our marag darshan.

Obviously, this is all theory as per my understanding at this-point-in-time and cannot gurantee anything.....I might be totally wrong......but this is the current reality for me from my current point-of-view.

ਇਸ  ਮਨ  ਕਾ  ਕੋਈ  ਜਾਨੈ  ਭੇਉ  ॥
Does anyone know the secret of this mind?

 

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I’m not disagreeing with your reasoning Das about spiritual guide need. Just your mention of that particular Sakhi where Guru ji vanishes for 3 days made me contribute some things I had heard  which seemed more reasonable to me. God knows what truly happened. Didn’t mean to take the topic off track.

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Just to add to this, for those who have read Se Kinehiya, Sant Baba Harnaam Singh Ji Rampur Khera Wale did not have a physical/living master. He only worshipped Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, a point which us made very clear throughout the book.

Now, I'm not saying a spiritual master is not needed. In fact I would say they are extremely beneficial, no doubt. But, as far as what we need is concerned, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is all we need.

This point was also said by Sant Baba Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib Wale. That if you are unable to recognise whether or not someone is a saint, then don't worry. Only believe and bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is enough.

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6 hours ago, Koi said:

Just to add to this, for those who have read Se Kinehiya, Sant Baba Harnaam Singh Ji Rampur Khera Wale did not have a physical/living master. He only worshipped Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, a point which us made very clear throughout the book.

 

6 hours ago, Koi said:

This point was also said by Sant Baba Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib Wale. That if you are unable to recognise whether or not someone is a saint, then don't worry. Only believe and bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is enough.

Excellent points bro.

Did Sant Baba Attar Singh jee Mastuanewale have a PLM? I don't think he had one like Sant Baba Nand Singh jee or Bhindranwale Babe had.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

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On 4/29/2018 at 1:32 PM, paapiman said:

 

Excellent points bro.

Did Sant Baba Attar Singh jee Mastuanewale have a PLM? I don't think he had one like Sant Baba Nand Singh jee or Bhindranwale Babe had.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

Sant Attar Singh Ji did not, but he himself was a master to many, and blessed many other masters also like Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib

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On April 28, 2018 at 11:20 PM, Koi said:

Just to add to this, for those who have read Se Kinehiya, Sant Baba Harnaam Singh Ji Rampur Khera Wale did not have a physical/living master. He only worshipped Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj, a point which us made very clear throughout the book.

Now, I'm not saying a spiritual master is not needed. In fact I would say they are extremely beneficial, no doubt. But, as far as what we need is concerned, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is all we need.

 This point was also said by Sant Baba Waryam Singh Ji Ratwara Sahib Wale. That if you are unable to recognise whether or not someone is a saint, then don't worry. Only believe and bow to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. That is enough.

I asked Gyani Thakur Singh ji this. He told me that Baba Harnam Singh ji did a massive amount of seva of the udassee sant mentioned at the beginning of the book. That sant didn't give him anything. So even though he didn't follow any sant after he broke with the udassee sant  (after that sant wanted him to leave the way of the Khalsa), he still got the phall of doing sewa of a sant. 

As for Sant Attar Singh ji, I'm certain you could find the lineage previous to him if you search. 

For more on what Gurbani states is the role of sants see https://khojee.wordpress.com/category/role-of-sants/

 

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On 5/5/2018 at 7:18 AM, Koi said:

Sant Attar Singh Ji did not, but he himself was a master to many, and blessed many other masters also like Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib

Veer Ji it was Sant Attar Singh Ji Raru Sahib Wale that Sant Isher Singh Ji and Sant Kishen Singh Ji did sewa of were blessed by but Sant Isher Singh Ji Rara Sahib did meet Sant Attar Singh Ji Mastuanewale in their jeewan.

On this site a lot of Mahapursh's jeevan can be read

http://www.mahapurakh.com/mastuanasahib

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