chatanga1 Posted March 29, 2018 Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted March 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2018 I will give just a summary of this to begin with and then look at some translating. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 1, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 1, 2018 OK so the summary of this charitar is that a King and a woman who lived on opposite banks of the river were greatly in love. They would take it in turns to cross the river to meet their love. One day when it was the womans turn the river was flooding/moving swiftly. She couldn't make it to the other side but got swept downstream. Fearing for her life she shouted out for help and when a Gujjar came she fearing she was going to drown, told him that if he rescues her she will become his bride. He rescues her and then when they are living together she asks him to take her into the town so they can pay respects to the King. He takes her, and they meet the King. She tells the King what happened and that she is now the bride of the Gujjar and can be be the King's wife if the Gujjar is killed. So the King kills the Gujjar and they resume their relationship. The gist of the charitar IMO is that the woman fearing she was going to drown made a very rash promise, which came back to haunt her. She had no intention of being the Gujjar's bride but circumstances drove her to it. This to me reflects in the original story, where the Queen had no intention of being an old mans wife. It was circumstances that drove her to being a old mans wife. She didn't want the old King anymore than the woman wanted the Gujjar. But the decision was not in their hands. That is an important part of this story. For survival people can do anything. The next part is the killing of the Gujjar, which shows both the King and the woman to be totally ungrateful. He was just a Gujjar who worked everyday for his living, and his death seems very harsh to me. I think this harshness of his punishment is reflected in the Kings change of heart as shown in the next charitar. It also reflect the framework story. In the original story, the Prince goes to war and defeats the opposing army to win the Queen and bring her to his father. In this story the Gujjar rescues the woman and (unknowingly) brings her to her King. However seeing the end of the Gujjar (i think) makes the King question himself whether he has made the right judgement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted April 4, 2018 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2018 On 01/04/2018 at 6:53 PM, chatanga1 said: I think this harshness of his punishment is reflected in the Kings change of heart as shown in the next charitar. I'm wrong here to write punishment. The Gujjar had done nothing wrong. Award/reward would be more befitting here than punishment. Up until the presentation of the Gujjar before the King, the poor man had no idea he was going to be executed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 The opening Dohra to this charitar tell us that the Prince was called to the King's presence. The next one tells us that the King's eyes have now been opened but this is the last one which mentions the prince so could it be that either the Prince has not been returned to prison? Or that the charitars being told from henceforth right upto 50 ish where we are now are being told in one day? Or could it be that the Prince is still in jail whilst the King listens to the rest of the charitars? I'm inclined to think that if the King has realised his folly he wouldn't return the Prince to jail as that would be unjust of the King. I'll what Gyani Narain Singh writes in his steek as well. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 29, 2018 Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 On 4/1/2018 at 6:53 PM, chatanga1 said: She had no intention of being the Gujjar's bride but circumstances drove her to it. No circumstances drove her to it. The Gujjar was a proper opportunist, who saw a vulnerable and desperate women and used the situation to get possession of her you know what. He could have just rescued her because it was the right thing to do, but instead he used her desperate plight to to 'obtain' her. I don't think people need to much brains to figure out what he was after - her ..err... meow... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 29, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 29, 2018 11 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said: No circumstances drove her to it. The Gujjar was a proper opportunist, who saw a vulnerable and desperate women and used the situation to get possession of her you know what. He could have just rescued her because it was the right thing to do, but instead he used her desperate plight to to 'obtain' her. I don't think people need to much brains to figure out what he was after - her ..err... meow... That's a good point. He could have rescued her for the sake of rescuing her. But it's important to note that she initiated the act of marriage by promising to be his if he rescued her. Now under any other circumstances would she have made such an offer? I remember reading an similiar story from the Great Mutiny of how an english woman was struggling to cross a river with others to escape but a muslim guy offered to rescue her if she became his wife. She agreed and he took her back to his house only for her to be rescued once the english defeated the mutineers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. 4 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: I don't think people need to much brains to figure out what he was after - her ..err... meow... Isn't it suppose to be "meow meow" (two times)? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 Connection to the base tale In this tale, the Gujjar performs a Dharmik deed of saving a human from drowning. Similarly, in the base tale, Hanuwant Singh refuses to have sex with his step mother (Chitar Mati), another Dharmik deed. By refusing to have sex with her, he also saves both the parties from indulging in a highly immoral and a sinful act. It is possible that the wise minster is trying to tell Chitar Singh said that the way the king (in this tale) acted ruthlessly towards the Gujjar, even though he did a humane deed by saving your lover; the same way you are being unjust and being inhumane with your son. You are punishing him for being pious and stern in his values. Both, the Gujjar and Hanuwant Singh, have been punished for being Dharmik. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 10 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: The Gujjar was a proper opportunist, who saw a vulnerable and desperate women and used the situation to get possession of her you know what. That might be correct, but the Gujjar did not put any condition before rescuing her. If the Gujjar had said to the woman that I will rescue you only if you become my wife, than that would make him a truly despicable human being. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 4/1/2018 at 1:53 PM, chatanga1 said: The next part is the killing of the Gujjar, which shows both the King and the woman to be totally ungrateful. Especially the woman. What an ungrateful lady. She could have gotten rid of the Gujjar, without having him killed. The king never needed to kill the Gujjar. He could have just told him that this lady is my lover and you stay away from her. What are the odds that he would have disobeyed the king? A very stupid and a cruel decision by the king to kill the Gujjar. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 4/1/2018 at 1:53 PM, chatanga1 said: I think this harshness of his punishment is reflected in the Kings change of heart as shown in the next charitar. Maybe the wise minister is also reminding Chitar Singh of his big folly of attacking another kingdom (thereby getting many people killed) just for the sake of a woman, who happened to look like his wife. The way the king in this tale has behaved (cruelly and ruthlessly); the same way Chittar singh has, to acquire Chitar Mati. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 Is there any verse in the Charitar, which alludes to their sexual relationship being a secret? If that's the case, the killing of the Gujjar would make more sense. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 Where are the passages that allude to the women making the offer to the gujjar? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 This is the Gurmukhi version: ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਹੇ ਅਹੀਰ ਹੌ ਜਾਤ ਹੌ ਬਹਤ ਨਦੀ ਕੇ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ (She said) ‘Oh, milkman, I am drowning here, ਜੋ ਹ੍ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ ਵਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੋ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ ‘Who-so-ever, helps me to rescue, will become my husband.’(11) This is what Jaggi translated it as: This is Nara's interpretation of it: 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 Does it make sense? I can't see the words that would say that the woman would be his wife. This is what i see tfrom this : ਹੇ ਅਹੀਰ - O Ahir (milkman) ਹੌ ਜਾਤ ਹੌ - I am going ਬਹਤ ਨਦੀ - flowing river ਕੇ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ - inside of "O Ahir, I am in this flowing river" ਜੋ - you ਹ੍ਯਾਂ - from here ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ -get me out ਵਹੈ - flow ਹਮਾਰੋ - myself ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ - is not "You get me out of the flow, or I will be finished (die) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 30, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 Could " ਜੋ ਹ੍ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ ਵਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੋ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ " be " ਜੋਹ ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ ਵਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੋ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ ਜੋਹ - look/see ਯਾਂ ਤੇ - over here which would give the meaning of : ਜੋਹ ਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ ਵਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੋ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ : "Look over here and get me out, otherwise I will be no more" || 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 ਜੋ ਹਯਾਂ ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ- I'd say this may be: Whoever gets me out of here ਜੋ - whoever ਹਯਾਂ ਤੇ - from here ਕਾਢੈ - removes ਮੁਝੈ - me I'll have a look at this bit later (which is the key to it) - ਵਹੈ ਹਮਾਰੋ ਨਾਹਿ MK gives us the following for ਹਯਾਂ: ਸੰ. इहत्य ਇਹਤ੍ਯ. ਕ੍ਰਿ. ਵਿ- ਇੱਥੇ. ਯਹਾਂ. "ਤੇ ਹ੍ਯਾਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਿਵਾਏ". (ਵਿਚਿਤ੍ਰ) "ਐਸੇ ਕਹਾ ਸਭ ਹ੍ਯਾਂ ਨ ਟਿਕੋ". (ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨਾਵ).॥ Mahan Kosh data provided by Bhai Baljinder Singh (RaraSahib Wale); See http://www.ik13.com 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Does it make sense? I can't see the words that would say that the woman would be his wife. This is what i see tfrom this : ਹੇ ਅਹੀਰ - O Ahir (milkman) ਹੌ ਜਾਤ ਹੌ - I am going ਬਹਤ ਨਦੀ - flowing river ਕੇ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ - inside of "O Ahir, I am in this flowing river" ਜੋ - you ਹ੍ਯਾਂ - from here ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ -get me out ਵਹੈ - flow ਹਮਾਰੋ - myself ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ - is not "You get me out of the flow, or I will be finished (die) @dalsingh101 The word "ਨਾਹ" mean husband. It has been used many times in Ad Gurbani. The sihari is probably attached to ਹ for grammar purposes. Therefore, we have ਜੋ - Whoever ਹ੍ਯਾਂ - from here ਤੇ ਕਾਢੈ ਮੁਝੈ - extracts me ਵਹੈ - that person ਹਮਾਰੋ - my ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧੧॥ - husband Whoever extracts me out of here, that person will be my husband. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, chatanga1 said: ਹੇ ਅਹੀਰ - O Ahir (milkman) The person belongs to the Ahir ethnic group. Why is he being refereed to as a Gujjar? Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 On 4/1/2018 at 1:53 PM, chatanga1 said: She tells the King what happened and that she is now the bride of the Gujjar @dalsingh101 Did you guys notice that the lady did not reveal the facts to the King? She did not tell the king that the Ahir saved her life from drowning. She made up a fictitious tale. Now, it makes sense why the king ordered the Ahir to be killed. Please have a look below: ਜਬ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਅਧਿਕ ਦੁਖ੍ਯ ਤਨ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ When I suffered plenty of pain in my body (indicating physical ailment) ਪ੍ਰਾਨਾਕੁਲ ਹਮ ਕੂਕ ਸੁਨਾਯੋ ॥ To save my own life, I cried out. ਜੋ ਯਾ ਦੁਖ ਤੇ ਬੈਦ ਉਸਾਰੈ ॥ Whichever doctor (ਬੈਦ) saves me from this pain ਸੋ ਹਮਰੋ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਨਾਥ ਬਿਹਾਰੈ He can become my husband. ਇਕ ਅਹੀਰ ਉਪਚਾਰ ਕਰਿ ਮੋ ਕੌ ਲਿਯੋ ਉਬਾਰਿ ॥ An Ahir using a treatment (ਉਪਚਾਰ), cured me ਅਬ ਮੋ ਸੌ ਐਸੇ ਕਹਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੨੦॥ Now, he says that you are my wife Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 This Charitar also teaches us the importance of Nishkaam seva (selfless service). If the Ahir had been Nishkaami and had not expected anything from the lady in return for saving her life, he would not have ended up in the abode of death. Even if the lady had promised him to become his wife, he could have rejected her offer, performed the humanitarian deed and then send her back to her place Maharaaj might be trying to teach his Sikhs that good deeds must not be performed with rewards in mind. Sikhs must strive to be Nishkaami, especially when it come to humanitarian work. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 46 minutes ago, paapiman said: This Charitar also teaches us the importance of Nishkaam seva (selfless service). If the Ahir had been Nishkaami and had not expected anything from the lady in return for saving her life, he would not have ended up in the abode of death. Even if the lady had promised him to become his wife, he could have rejected her offer, performed the humanitarian deed and then send her back to her place Maharaaj might be trying to teach his Sikhs that good deeds must not be performed with rewards in mind. Sikhs must strive to be Nishkaami, especially when it come to humanitarian work. Bhul chuk maaf I think you hit the nail on the head here brother. This was yet another example of appealing to lust for some purpose. She knew she was very pretty and used it to get herself saved, otherwise the gujjar might not have done a thing. Here I would say that the women is pretty desperate, and her actions could be understood - even if you don't agree with them. She was desperately trying to save her own life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 This scenario is still VERY COMMON today (albeit without the murder). If a women is with a man (whether she has been compelled to be with him, or even if she chose him but later changes her mind about being with him), she may well get another bloke she likes better to beat him up to free herself from him. Seen it happen loads of times. There is a warning there about coercing or exploiting women I believe. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 30, 2018 Report Share Posted July 30, 2018 2 hours ago, paapiman said: ਅਬ ਮੋ ਸੌ ਐਸੇ ਕਹਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਨਾਰਿ ॥੨੦॥ Now, he says that you are my wife Then he said to me thus: become my women ਅਬ - then ਮੋ ਸੌ - to me ਐਸੇ ਕਹਤ - [he] said like this ਹੋਹਿ - become ਹਮਾਰੀ - my ਨਾਰਿ - women ਹੋਹਿ = SGGS Gurmukhi-Gurmukhi Dictionary ho-hi. 1. ਹੋਵਣ, ਹੋਣ। 2. ਹੋਵੇ, ਹੋਏ। 3. ਹੋ ਜਾਵੋ। 4. ਹਨ। 1. may possess/have. 2. be. 3. shall be. 4. are. 1. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ Japujee, Guru ʼnanak Dev, 1:4 (P: 1). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹਸਤ ਪੁਨੀਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਤਤਕਾਲ ॥ (ਹੋਣਗੇ). Raga Gaurhee 5, 97, 1:1 (P: 185). 2. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਮੋਤੀ ਤ ਮੰਦਰ ਊਸਰਹਿ ਰਤਨੀ ਤ ਹੋਹਿ ਜੜਾਉ ॥ Raga Sireeraag 1, 1, 1:1 (P: 14). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਕਰਿ ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਸਿਮਰੁ ਮਾਧੋ ਹੋਹਿ ਪਤਿਤ ਪੁਨੀਤ ॥ (ਹੋ ਜਾਂਦੇ ਹਨ). Raga Sorath 9, 1, 1:1 (P: 631). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਜਪਿ ਮਨ ਨਾਮੁ ਹਰੀ ਹੋਹਿ ਸਰਬ ਸੁਖੀ ॥ (ਸੁੱਖੀ ਹੋਵੇਂਗਾ). Raga Dhanaasaree 4, 8, 1:1 (P: 669). 3. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਹੋਹਿ ਅਚਿੰਤੁ ਬਸੈ ਸੁਖ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ Raga Gaurhee 5, Sukhmanee 19, 7:3 (P: 289). 4. ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਹਰੇ ਸੁ ਹੋਹਿ ਨ ਆਨਾ ॥ Raga Gaurhee, Kabir, Asatpadee 37, 2:1 (P: 330). ਉਦਾਹਰਨ: ਜਾ ਕੈ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਿਲਬਿਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਨਾਸ ॥ (ਹੁੰਦੇ ਹਨ). Raga Gond 5, 6, 1:3 (P: 863). SGGS Gurmukhi-English Dictionary [var.] From Hohā SGGS Gurmukhi-English Data provided by Harjinder Singh Gill, Santa Monica, CA, USA. Mahan Kosh Encyclopedia ਹੁੰਦਾ ਹੈ। (2) ਹੋਵੇ. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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