Million dollar question how creation came to be?

[sarabatam]

Million dollar question what came first- how creation came to be ?and also what came first- breath or consciousness/awareness in the body?? Chicken or egg question? lol

Your thoughts?

[ragnarok]

Not sure about general cases but Suleiman was allowed to remain outside his body before it was born. Did he go into his new body before it was born or as it was born?

 

[sarabatam]

5 hours ago, ragnarok said:

Not sure about general cases but Suleiman was allowed to remain outside his body before it was born. Did he go into his new body before it was born or as it was born?

 

Good point, i am more curious about general cases. I think if we go by gurbani wisdom below, we can say awareness is primordial but then question that arises how primordial is breath? Are we getting into sun -afur state prior to creation? In my view, in the body they came in the same time. I am not sure?

 

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥ सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥

Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4. Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

 

ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥ एका सुरति जेते है जीअ ॥

Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.

There is one awareness among all created beings.

 

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥ सुरति विहूणा कोइ न कीअ ॥

Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.

None have been created without this awareness.

[sarabatam]

Love to get input from  @Lucky, @Sat1176, @Paapiman, @BhagatSingh

[Soulfinder]

I am gonna share a few lines from Chandi Di Vaar about what was first created in the opening pauris of the paath. The katha is also here by Baba Jarnail Singh Ji and Sant Gurbachan Singh Ji . The first thing created was kaal death by Waheguru.

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਥਮਿ ਮਨਾਇਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

Khaandaa Parthami Manaaeikai Jin Sabha Saisaara Aupaaeiaa ॥

At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ - ੨/੧ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

Barhamaa Bisanu Mahesa Saaji Kudarti Daa Khelu Banaaeiaa ॥

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature.

ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ - ੨/੨ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

ਸਿੰਧੁ ਪਰਬਤ ਮੇਦਨੀ ਬਿਨੁ ਥੰਮਾ ਗਗਨ ਰਹਾਇਆ ॥

Siaandhu Parbata Medanee Binu Thaanmaa Gagan Rahaaeiaa ॥

He created the oceans, mountains and the earth made the sky stable without columns.

ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ - ੨/੩ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

ਸਿਰਜੇ ਦਾਨੋ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਤਿਨ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬਾਦੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥

Srije Daano Devate Tin Aandari Baadu Rachaaeiaa ॥

He created the demons and gods and caused strife between them.

 

 

[sarabatam]

Thanks for contributing veer, here are some more quotes from gurbani:

maajh mehalaa 3 ||

Maajh, Third Mehla:

auqpiq prlau sbdy hovY ]

outhapath paralo sabadhae hovai ||

Creation and destruction happen through the Word of the Shabad.

sbdy hI iPir Epiq hovY ]

sabadhae hee fir oupath hovai ||

Through the Shabad, creation happens again.

All aspects (shabad-ong/shakti-Khanda-inner life force-shiv-shakat ) are correct in their right as realities of creations are perceived differently by different school of thoughts/aspects of divine within gurbani, where gurbani says from shabad whole creation came -there gurbani is talking from shabad (oan/ong sound vibration) aspect of akaal purkh and where gurbani says from khanda(double edge sword) - whole creation came, there gurbani is talking from aad shakti/inner life force-shiva shakti aspect of akaal purkh and without awareness/surat there is no experience of creation whether shabad aspect of creation or life force-shiv shakti aspect of creation, refer to sargun nirgun nirankar asthpadi in sukhmani sahib.

[BhagatSingh]

In Vaishnavism, it is Consciousness that came first.

You can see this view mirrored in Guru Granth Sahib.


In Shaktism, it is Energy or physicality that came first.

You can see this view mirrored in the opening lines of Chandi di Vaar.
 

This is the fundamental duality.

Both worldviews recognize that fundamentally consciousness and energy are the same but there is a duality there that is perceived.

That duality is referred to as Shiv-Shakti.
 

Guru sahib says - Jaha dekhan taha Ravi rahe, Shiv Shakti ka mel - wherever I look I see Ravi (Sun, light and radiance) of the union of Shiv and Shakti (Consciousness and Energy)

 

5 hours ago, sarabatam said:

where gurbani says from khanda(double edge sword)

In Chandi Di Vaar, Khanda is referring to Consciousness and it dividing (Khandan) the Oneness of Energy in to distinct Khands/sections, into objects, locations, people, etc, and that's creates our world.

Bhagawati Devi (Adi Shakti, Energy) first creates the Khanda that is Consciousness and then the process of Creation, Preservation and Destruction (here Brahma-Vishnu and Mahadev are referring to processes rather than to Supreme Consciousness).


The flip version of this is expressed in Guru Granth Sahib.

Where Hari ji creates Maya (Energy), which then creates duality within the Oneness of Consciousness. Maya divides one singular consciousness in to multiple bodies, in multiple forms.

Maya entices Consciousness - Brahma Bishan Mahadev moheya - to its variety of forms and this is why the servants of Hari must learn to remain detached from Maya so that they see the Oneness. Baishno so jis upar suprasan, Bishan ki Maya te hoye bhin.

Hope that clears things up.

[sarabatam]

Thanks for your reply veer, can you please see the post below based on my understanding if its accurate?

Correct me if i am wrong

According to various aspects of divine, divine and spiritual school of thoughts, creation came into existence via three different perspectives/aspects of divine/divine-

1. Advait- Non dual Awareness/Consciousness -Non Duality 

2.  Consciousness and life energy dual play- Shiv-Shakti

3. Resonance of Sound -OM/OAN/ONG/ONGKAR

1. Non dual Awareness/Consciousness (Advaita/ Advait-Vashivanism/Kashmiri shaivaism etc)

Gurbani talks about this perspective:

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥ सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥

Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4. Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

 

ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥ एका सुरति जेते है जीअ ॥

Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.

There is one awareness among all created beings.

 

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥ सुरति विहूणा कोइ न कीअ ॥

Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.

None have been created without this awareness.

 

Any references of one jot /IK/Ikangkara

 

 

2. Consciousness and life energy-dual play (Shaivism- Shiv-shakti)

Gurbani talks about this perspective as well:

ਖੰਡਾ ਪ੍ਰਥਮਿ ਮਨਾਇਕੈ ਜਿਨ ਸਭ ਸੈਸਾਰ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥

Khaandaa Parthami Manaaeikai Jin Sabha Saisaara Aupaaeiaa ॥

At first the Lord created the double-edged sword and then He created the whole world.

ਚੰਡੀ ਦੀ ਵਾਰ - ੨/੧ - ਸ੍ਰੀ ਦਸਮ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸ ਸਾਜਿ ਕੁਦਰਤਿ ਦਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਬਣਾਇਆ ॥

Barhamaa Bisanu Mahesa Saaji Kudarti Daa Khelu Banaaeiaa ॥

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva and then created the play of Nature.

Jaha dekhan taha Ravi rahe, Shiv Shakti ka mel - wherever I look I see Ravi (Sun, light and radiance) of the union of Shiv and Shakti (Consciousness and Energy)

3. Resonance of Sound -OM/OAN/ONG/ONGKAR ,

Many yogi traditions talks about sound of OM creation came

Gurbani talks about this perspective from Oangkar whole creation came:

outhapath paralo sabadhae hovai ||

Creation and destruction happen through the Word of the Shabad.

sabadhae hee fir oupath hovai ||

Through the Shabad, creation happens again.

Ongkar Bhrama Utpat ||

Ongkar Kiya Jin Chit ||

Ongkar Saiyel Jug Paie ||

Ongkar Vaid Nirvaie ||

Oankar ('the Primal Sound') created Brahma, Oankar fashioned the consciousness,
From Oankar came mountains and ages, Oankar produced the Vedas,
By the grace of Oankar, people were saved through the divine word,
By the grace of Oankar, they were liberated through the teachings of the Guru.
— Ramakali Dakkhani, Adi Granth 929-930

Ongkar aad kathni anad, Khal Khand Khyal Gurbar Akaal || (Jaap sahib)

[sarabatam]

Love to get more inputs from @Lucky @Sat1176 @paapiman 

[sarabatam]

@Mekhane'ch Jannat 

[BhagatSingh]

12 hours ago, sarabatam said:

1. Advait- Non dual Awareness/Consciousness -Non Duality 

2.  Consciousness and life energy dual play- Shiv-Shakti

3. Resonance of Sound -OM/OAN/ONG/ONGKAR

Why are you splitting this into 3 schools of thought when it is actually one school of thought.

In Gurbani, it states that there is non-dual oneness of Consciousness or Being Hari ji that appears as Hari-Maya (or Shiv-Shakti) and that everything that is perceived is coming One Universal Vibration (Aum), that is "uttered" by Hari ji.

The Oneness Advait Consciousness appears as Dual Consciousness and Energy, and it is through the vibration of the Onkar.

That is all one perspective in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

2. The second perspective comes from Chandi di Vaar because it puts Bhagawati/Adi Shakti ji, which is Energy/Power, at the top, instead of Hari ji, Consciousness. That is Shaktism's perspective.

3. The third perspective comes from Bichitra Natak, which puts Mahakal ji, which Time/Death, at the top instead of Energy or Consciousness. So you might ask how can Time be the creator of Consciousness and Energy. Well contemplate this phrase - Eternal Now.

 

Ultimately, when there is an experience of Oneness, then all these perspectives merge into one. Monotheism into Polytheism into Pantheism, and Advait into Dvait and Vaishavism into Shaktism into Shaivism.

So ultimately it simply IS.

However for the sake of understanding different approaches are there.

Different paths up the same mountain, like they say.

 

[sarabatam]

2 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Why are you splitting this into 3 schools of thought when it is actually one school of thought.

In Gurbani, it states that there is non-dual oneness of Consciousness or Being Hari ji that appears as Hari-Maya (or Shiv-Shakti) and that everything that is perceived is coming One Universal Vibration (Aum), that is "uttered" by Hari ji.

The Oneness Advait Consciousness appears as Dual Consciousness and Energy, and it is through the vibration of the Onkar.

That is all one perspective in Guru Granth Sahib.

Totally agree, well put and well understood ~IkOngkar~

[BhagatSingh]

1 minute ago, sarabatam said:

Totally agree, well put and well understood ~IkOngkar~

In order to see other perspectives, you must contemplate how one Beingness, Consciousnes, can be perceived as Energy or Time by Saints from different traditions.

Then you will enjoy the taste of Chandi di Vaar (the eulogy of Energy) and Bichitra Natak (the eulogy of Time).

[BhagatSingh]

See this thread where we discussed different perspectives.

Start from Wakeup's comment and keep reading the remainder of page 2 and page 3.
 

 

[paapiman]

21 hours ago, sarabatam said:

Love to get more inputs from @Lucky @Sat1176 @paapiman 

Gurparsaad, will contribute to this topic in the future.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[ragnarok]

On 4/11/2018 at 4:38 PM, sarabatam said:

Good point, i am more curious about general cases. I think if we go by gurbani wisdom below, we can say awareness is primordial but then question that arises how primordial is breath? Are we getting into sun -afur state prior to creation? In my view, in the body they came in the same time. I am not sure?

 

ਸਿਰੀਰਾਗੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ਘਰੁ ੪ ॥ सिरीरागु महला १ घरु ४ ॥

Sirīrāg mėhlā 1 gẖar 4. Siree Raag, First Mehl, Fourth House:

 

ਏਕਾ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਹੈ ਜੀਅ ॥ एका सुरति जेते है जीअ ॥

Ėkā suraṯ jeṯe hai jī▫a.

There is one awareness among all created beings.

 

ਸੁਰਤਿ ਵਿਹੂਣਾ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਕੀਅ ॥ सुरति विहूणा कोइ न कीअ ॥

Suraṯ vihūṇā ko▫e na kī▫a.

None have been created without this awareness.

Coincidentally came across this today

 

 

[sarabatam]

Amazing video.

[Lucky]

 

With regard to this thread and consciousness, there is a post from another thread that would be quite relevant here. It's my elaboration on Ek-ong-kar and how it ties in part with Hubble's Big bang theory and their understanding of "singularity"

I was just amazed when I first realized this and couldn't help but envisage what Guru Nanak ji wrote on the slate to the panday with the explanation he would have given.

Quote

For arguments sake, lets stick with the terms -

Atma=Soul,

Paramatma= Supreme single soul/nirankar

Chit/Chetun=Consciousness. 

To recognise and differentiate between them, is fundamental for realisation; in my opinion.

Imagine the universe at a moment before creation. Gurbani tells us that only he was present, and he was within himself. “Sargun Nirgun Nirankar sunn samadhi aap - apan keea Nanaka aapey hi phir jaap”. Visualise this for a second to picture the creation happening after this moment. That moment was the “ONG” or the big-bang.  Remember the meaning of IK-ONG-KAR.  Ik= singularity of one before creation.  Then came the “ONG” shabad sound, followed by the “KAR”(creation). The doer(IK) did the creation(KAR) with the Ong

Gurbani says “sunn samadhi aap” he was in primal samadhi in the void within himself. This “within himself” in sunn samadhi is crucial because when referring to that moment before creation; nothing had been created yet. At that point, it was just ‘IK’

It may help if you imagine a still, single point as IK. The Big Bang Theory(Hubble) even calls this the "moment of singularity". It is at this stage, when there were no manifestation of Sargun or Nirgun, but it was just Nirankar himself. (No akaar =Nirankar, whereas Sargun & nirgun are akaar)

Bearing this in mind, it can help understand why two terms translated as formless (nirgun and nirankar) are used.  Nirgun, refers to  ‘after creation’ meaning = without form, without attributes etc.  Nirankar refers to that singularity, the IK himself before any creation, before any akaar. Now, when we bring in Atma and Chetan, it can help understand where they fit in. The topic itself is huge because it brings in everything like manmat, gurmat, brahmagyan, turiya avastha and much more of gurbani from comprehending this Ik-ong-kar alone along Nirankar (without akaar or consciousness)

When IK is by itself, just before moment of ong-kar, then we could also say that the almighty single soul/atma is Paramatma. It may be helpful to visualise a light(jyot) that is akin to a singularity point or dot… imagine this jyot as not radiating and not yet emitting light to the surroundings. It’s that trillionth of a second from when you turn the light switch on in a dark room, to when the room lights up. The moment when the bulb filament has just ignited and the luminosity is still within the bulb and not expanded out into the room. In this trillionth of a sec, the MOTION is not in play yet…This motion that I’m referring to is what came into play from the IK. This is the Consciousness. It is the Chetan or Chit within, and around us.

As the jyot or Ik, begins to radiate outwards and expand, we could say that it’s all executed via an increasing flux of Chetan/Consciousness. The expanding universe and worlds were created in this instant. We also know, that he is STILL creating because science tells us the universe is still expanding.  The “kar” is done but is also continuing to be created.

Q) What happened at the moment of Ong-kar/creation and what changed about God?

A) Initially, God was in a primal nothingness void and in deep samadhi within himself. There was no creation yet. Whereas after, he became God the creator, and he is now the creator and creation itself.  Gurbani refers to this attribute as “Gobind” ( lord of the universe)

According to old texts and to my understanding, this moment of creation when consciousness came into play, is when duality was created. Prior to this, there were no duality except atam/paramatma.

-The Ik was singular, ..Advait(non-dual)..........Atam, Paramatam was singular..........-no motion or time in play. 

This is the Shiv-shakti, with the shakti being the consciousness.

Babaji mentions this in the recording and refers to Chetan as the shakti which is everywhere and comes from Paramatma.

  He gave the analogy of the electrical items like bulb, heater etc that won’t work or become active unless the shakti of electric flow is present.  In the same manner, consciousness is active in the whole of existence.

   You may be aware that for some years now, quantum physics has determined that the whole universe is very much alive with this “consciousness”.  It’s also important to understand that consciousness/chetan is dualistic. When this consciousness came into existence; it started to emanate and expand outwards from Paramatma. This is when duality also became a reality.

 

In summary, …

*very original point of IK, or that non-emitting jyot is Paramatma,... this is also NIRANKAR (without consciousness and without akar)  NOTE- GOD"S consciousness was all within himself and not in creation

*The enormous flux of energy/shakti that has radiated and expanded out from it, is  the Consciousness/Chetan.

May also try and picture as if trillions of photons/light particles emanating outwards, are “atma’s” coming from Paramatma.  In Babaji’s recording where he gave the analogy of the electric current akin to Chetan/consciousness, he said the Chetan is a shakti flowing around and within us.  Just like electrical items and appliances, our indries(senses and motor functions), are all controlled and functioning under the Chetan/Consiocusness. Even the involuntary organs function through the same consciousness via subtle energies/prana.  The Consciousness stems from the atma that we have inside us. Babaji gave analogy of root and stem. Just like the mind, we can merge the consciousness into the atma/paramatma. He gave example of Bhai Mani Singh and how he directed his Chetan away from all indiries and sareer, and channeled it into the atam. All that remained was the atam in it’s purest state  This is the inner yoga, where one “jog’s”(joins) the consciousness into the soul.

 

[Lucky]

On 4/11/2018 at 11:40 PM, BhagatSingh said:

Where Hari ji creates Maya (Energy), which then creates duality within the Oneness of Consciousness. Maya divides one singular consciousness in to multiple bodies, in multiple forms.

 

On 4/12/2018 at 6:47 PM, BhagatSingh said:

2. The second perspective comes from Chandi di Vaar because it puts Bhagawati/Adi Shakti ji, which is Energy/Power, at the top, instead of Hari ji, Consciousness. That is Shaktism's perspective.

3. The third perspective comes from Bichitra Natak, which puts Mahakal ji, which Time/Death, at the top instead of Energy or Consciousness. So you might ask how can Time be the creator of Consciousness and Energy. Well contemplate this phrase - Eternal Now.

Ultimately, when there is an experience of Oneness, then all these perspectives merge into one. Monotheism into Polytheism into Pantheism, and Advait into Dvait and Vaishavism into Shaktism into Shaivism.

wow. Excellent read. Enjoyed seeing bachitra natik-->eulogy of time!

[sarabatam]

Some great posts guys, so in essence IK-non dual being expressing itself via sound/life energy- Ong- Creative, preserving, destruction (Kaal-death) Kar-Eternal Awareness , bringing all aspects of divine together