Sri Charitropakhyan Sahib jee Series - Charitar #34

[chatanga1]

[chatanga1]

Here is Gyani Ishar Singh's translation:

 

[paapiman]

@chatanga1 

Paaji, please do add the "Warning" at the top, whenever you post a new Charitar.

Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[dalsingh101]

I got to ask. Paapiman and Chatanga (and anyone else following), you've been on the chariters for a while now. 

On an overview level what do make of the work so far based on your exposure to it?

Are there consistent themes? What about variation? 

What do you think the functional purpose of the work is? 

What about historical context? Do you think they may reflect murky goings on in the late 1600s? Do you think they are relevant today? In which way? 

Any thoughts from a linguistic perspective? What was the didactic purpose of the writings?

[chatanga1]

Dal, after 2 years we have only got upto charitar 34. Thats not even 10% of the whole granth, so it's a bit hard to answer your questions.

On another note thought, this is mainly down to Paapimans laziness. He is the one that wanted to look at this but seems to have got tired of adding to the work.

[dalsingh101]

5 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Dal, after 2 years we have only got upto charitar 34. Thats not even 10% of the whole granth, so it's a bit hard to answer your questions.

On another note thought, this is mainly down to Paapimans laziness. He is the one that wanted to look at this but seems to have got tired of adding to the work.

Cool. At least you've done this much. Going through all 303 chariters is a mission in itself. 

One thing I think we can say for certain is that it definitely isn't a work  of 'erotica' as you find repeatedly mentioned in earlier western work on the Dasam Granth. 

Lately I've been reflecting on what I (in my limited way) understand of the DG. I think as well as spiritual development, it encompasses so much more. It has a very strong(!!) social vision for Sikhs embedded within as well. Given it, I can't help but think that Sikhi is thee most militant faith in the world - even more so than Islam. 

Given dasmesh pita's known desire to mass educate and expand Sikh minds, it can really aid us in helping to grasp some of the contours of how he wanted Sikhs to be socially and intellectually developed (or at least how he tackled certain problems).

Let me throw this important (to my mind anyway) idea out. Does CP reflect an attempt to condition Sikh minds to be acutely aware of disloyalty and promiscuity around them? Here's the important bit: Today (I think mainly because of colonial era, western notions of femininity put to us through the Singh Sabha lehar), many of us seem to have this idealised picture of our panth in the late 1600s. Today most of us are inclined to think that their was some sort of sexual purity going on back then, that we've lost since. Doesn't CP paint a different picture? Like promiscuity and infidelity was just as common then as now? 

[paapiman]

One verse which stands out in this Charitar is

ਸਰਨਾਗਤ ਦੀਜਤ ਨਹੀ ਇਹੈ ਬਡਨ ਕੀ ਰੀਤਿ ॥੧੦॥

Isn't it a tradition among the great people/elders to protect the people who come under their sanctuary

The wise minister might be conveying to the king that you, as an elder, are suppose to protect your son. Likewise, as a king, you are mean't to protect your kingdom, not destroy it by killing the heir to the throne.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

17 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

One thing I think we can say for certain is that it definitely isn't a work  of 'erotica' as you find repeatedly mentioned in earlier western work on the Dasam Granth. 

Absolutely not. I was very disappointed to read of Niddar Singh describing it as such as well.

 

17 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Lately I've been reflecting on what I (in my limited way) understand of the DG. I think as well as spiritual development, it encompasses so much more. It has a very strong(!!) social vision for Sikhs embedded within as well.

Yes this is a balancing of the Miri-Piri doctrine.

 

17 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Given dasmesh pita's known desire to mass educate and expand Sikh minds, it can really aid us in helping to grasp some of the contours of how he wanted Sikhs to be socially and intellectually developed (or at least how he tackled certain problems).

yes and to add to this, because of the hih character of the Khalsa that Guru Sahib wanted to encapsulate in the individual and collective body known as the Khalsa, Dasam Granth plays an essential part. Its not enough to get to the top so to speak but to ensure that you stay there. This is where I think Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth comes in.

 

17 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Let me throw this important (to my mind anyway) idea out. Does CP reflect an attempt to condition Sikh minds to be acutely aware of disloyalty and promiscuity around them?

No I don't think the intention was overly towards disloyalty or promiscuity. I think the intention lay more towards knowing how fragile any minute or hour can be in one's life. No matter what status you hold, or wealth you have.

[dalsingh101]

18 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Here's the important bit: Today (I think mainly because of colonial era, western notions of femininity put to us through the Singh Sabha lehar), many of us seem to have this idealised picture of our panth in the late 1600s. Today most of us are inclined to think that their was some sort of sexual purity going on back then, that we've lost since. Doesn't CP paint a different picture? Like promiscuity and infidelity was just as common then as now? 

@chatanga1

How comes you missed out this most important question? 

[chatanga1]

18 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Here's the important bit: Today (I think mainly because of colonial era, western notions of femininity put to us through the Singh Sabha lehar), many of us seem to have this idealised picture of our panth in the late 1600s. Today most of us are inclined to think that their was some sort of sexual purity going on back then, that we've lost since. Doesn't CP paint a different picture? Like promiscuity and infidelity was just as common then as now? 

Not amongst Sikhs. I think personally that the panth in terms of shardha was strong at this time and that sexual purity was a big part of it. As CP contains stories from folklore worldwide that were used to portray a particular facet of human frailty I can't see it as being wholly or substantially reflective of society in that era.

[dalsingh101]

2 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Not amongst Sikhs. I think personally that the panth in terms of shardha was strong at this time and that sexual purity was a big part of it. As CP contains stories from folklore worldwide that were used to portray a particular facet of human frailty I can't see it as being wholly or substantially reflective of society in that era.

I have to say, I disagree with you on that. CP is all about awareness. If the issues contained therein weren't really effecting the panth (as well as wider society) at the time, surely there wouldn't have been the need to focus on it so heavily?

So of the 30 chariters you read so far, how many have been based in locations outside of India?  

[dalsingh101]

Also how many of them depict deception involving royals or higher echelons of society? 

[chatanga1]

Lets deal with the charitar first. See how we have been sidetracked to discuss other things and moved onto the next charitar without even looking at this. Dal ask your questions in some of the topics that talk about the granth itself, not individual charitars please.

 

Ok, so the opeing para of this tells us about a male in the garb of a holy person who indulges in things that he shouldn't be. He wears the attire of a holy person but is committing a great crime by having a physical relationship with another man's wife. To me this doesn't only show deceit but also "ingratitude." In gurbani as well, it says holy men say that gresht dharam is wrong but yet go begging for alms at those same doors. To me this is along the same lines. The holy person who beleives that gresht dharam is wrong is going to that same place for his own needs.

So this person acting out of character is another point we have seen before in the charitars and the root story. The next bit I'm a little confused by. It seems she  asks her husband by saying take the sword and go and look for a thief, whilst she goes back to the holy man. Then when her husband comes back (without any thief) she says that there is a servant of a holy man whom she hid in the house because the servant was about to be killed by his master. Bit hard to decipher this one.  She is fooling her husband under the pretence that she is actually saving someone's life. Now that's not a small thing is it ? To save someone's life. So naturally her husband is pleased with her actions and doesn't see any wrongdoing.

 

Any thoughts?

 

http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Giani_Harbhajan_Singh_Dhudikey_(Vidyarthi_Sampardai_Bhindra)/Sri_Dasam_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji_Katha/16_Charitropakhyan_Katha/Giani.Harbhajan.Singh.Dhudhikey.(Vidyarthi.Sampardai.Bhindra)--467.-.Charitropakhyan.Katha.025.mp3

 

Please listen from 17 mins onwards. i will listen tomorrow now as its taken me about 45 mins just to locate the charitar and starting point. Gurmatveechar hasn't listed the charitars by number as some audio files cover more than one charitar.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[paapiman]

On 5/11/2018 at 6:40 PM, chatanga1 said:

. It seems she  asks her husband by saying take the sword and go and look for a thief, whilst she goes back to the holy man. Then when her husband comes back (without any thief) she says that there is a servant of a holy man whom she hid in the house because the servant was about to be killed by his master. Bit hard to decipher this one.

I am a bit confused about this Charitar too.

IMHO, it seems that she told the Jogi to take the sword, go out of the house and exclaim that this lady (your wife) has hid my thief at your place. In this way, the husband would feel that the Jogi was in the house looking for the thief, thereby not suspecting his wife of any illicit relationship.

It seems that the Jogi had a servant with him. Maybe the servant came along with the Jogi to the house. That servant was made to look, as if he was hidden in the house. When the husband must have seen the servant (of the Jogi), he must have been satisfied (with the wife' false tale) that she was trying to save his life.

I might be wrong.

Can anyone else help?

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

22 hours ago, paapiman said:

IMHO, it seems that she told the Jogi to take the sword, go out of the house and exclaim that this lady (your wife) has hid my thief at your place. In this way, the husband would feel that the Jogi was in the house looking for the thief, thereby not suspecting his wife of any illicit relationship.

It seems that the Jogi had a servant with him. Maybe the servant came along with the Jogi to the house. That servant was made to look, as if he was hidden in the house. When the husband must have seen the servant (of the Jogi), he must have been satisfied (with the wife' false tale) that she was trying to save his life.

 

Interesting. from the katha it seems as such. I will listen to it again.

Jaggi's translation of it has made it a lot clearer.

 

[paapiman]

3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

 

Interesting. from the katha it seems as such. I will listen to it again.

Jaggi's translation of it has made it a lot clearer.

 

Jaggi's translation makes sense.

So, the servant of the Jogi was sent out with the sword, while the Jogi stayed inside the house (but made to look like the lady had hidden him).

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[chatanga1]

On 5/14/2018 at 2:22 PM, paapiman said:

So, the servant of the Jogi was sent out with the sword, while the Jogi stayed inside the house (but made to look like the lady had hidden him).

Yes. Did Bindras translation make any mention of the Jogi's servant?

[paapiman]

6 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Yes. Did Bindras translation make any mention of the Jogi's servant?

There is none. Bindra's translation also makes sense. Please have a look below.

 

Bhul chuk maaf

[paapiman]

On 5/9/2018 at 7:10 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Given it, I can't help but think that Sikhi is thee most militant faith in the world - even more so than Islam.

Excellent point. Sikhism is the most militant organized religion in the world. The main reason being the abundant war imagery in Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. Dasam Gurbani has the capacity to turn cowards into fearless warriors.

 

Bhul chuk maaf