paapiman Posted May 11, 2018 Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Please read the Chartiar: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 11, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 11, 2018 Gurmukhi Version: https://www.searchgurbani.com/public/dasam-granth/page/1593 Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 Here is Jaggi's translation of it: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 From 36 mins onwards for katha of this : http://www.gurmatveechar.com/audios/Katha/02_Present_Day_Katha/Giani_Harbhajan_Singh_Dhudikey_(Vidyarthi_Sampardai_Bhindra)/Sri_Dasam_Guru_Granth_Sahib_Ji_Katha/16_Charitropakhyan_Katha/Giani.Harbhajan.Singh.Dhudhikey.(Vidyarthi.Sampardai.Bhindra)--467.-.Charitropakhyan.Katha.025.mp3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 Here we have another charitar that covers 2 chapters. Here are some of my observations from this charitar: Firstly the man caught his wife enflagrant as in another charitar. But on that occasion the husband left both of them alone and persuaded his own mind to forget about it. Move on. But in this charitar the aggrieved party, the husband kills the other man. Why didn't he kill his wife as well? I can't see the wife as being innocent in this, rather she would have been the instigating party in the affair, as the other man was an employee of her husband. That brings me onto another point. The other man worked for the husband but had no loyalty toward him at all. Then after the woman discovers her lover dead, she was hellbent on revenge and took a sword to kill any man she could find. Did the other man mean that much to her that she was prepared to kill over him? Why does the dogar wait a year? I think maybe he was giving her the chance to come clean herself and tell him the truth. Finally after a good amount of time, the Dogar knew she wouldn'tand decided to engineer things to solicit some kind of reaction from her. Then after she has been exposed she even attempts to kill her own husband, who is the innocent party in the story. maybe this is also a reflection of the root story where the Queen has attempted to take the of the Prince ? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 Here is the 2nd part by Jaggi: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 See the ending here? How the husband says to the villagers :" look at my injuries." When I read this it reminded me of the self -inflicted injuries the Queen gave herself and used them as evidence to the King. The husband here for his part now knows that he can never reconcile with his wife after ther attempt on his life. So he decides that her death is the only way out. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 14, 2018 Report Share Posted May 14, 2018 See this is is also different because instead of the bloke (or women) being mugged off (and being completely oblivious to it - as seems to be the case in most of the previous chariters), here the man actually figures out what is happening, and then also manages to save himself when the women goes into a frenzy with the sword (the second time in the dark) . In the end it is the bloke who evades all the moves against him. So it sort of makes a break from previous narratives where the main party is completely made a fool of. Does the CP narrative now shift from the foolishness of people blinded by lust, to those that see through deceptions? We should note any subtle changes in the subsequent narratives henceforth. What I don't get is where he gets those injuries that he shows the villagers in the end? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 15, 2018 23 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: What I don't get is where he gets those injuries that he shows the villagers in the end? He got those injuries when his wife went on a frenzy trying to kill him. The last line of Charitar# 36 alludes to it. ਨਿਜੁ ਪਤਿ ਕੋ ਘਾਇਲ ਕਿਯਾ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਰਹੀ ਲਜਾਇ ॥੧੬॥ She injured her husband, but did not even feel a bit of shame Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 15, 2018 Report Share Posted May 15, 2018 54 minutes ago, paapiman said: He got those injuries when his wife went on a frenzy trying to kill him. The last line of Charitar# 36 alludes to it. ਨਿਜੁ ਪਤਿ ਕੋ ਘਾਇਲ ਕਿਯਾ ਨੈਕ ਨ ਰਹੀ ਲਜਾਇ ॥੧੬॥ She injured her husband, but did not even feel a bit of shame Bhul chuk maaf What about this then? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 The translation doesn't make sense in english too much Dal. It says "in the house" to begin with, and then "he hid under a buffalo." Who keeps a buffalo in their house? When I looked at it this is how I translated that part " ਪੈਠਿ ਅੰਧੇਰੇ ਧਾਮ ਮਹਿ ਕਾਢਿ ਲਈ ਕਰਵਾਰਿ ॥ Entering the house in the dark, she took out a sword ( ਕਰਵਾਰਿ ) is a sword that is shaped like a nail - mahan kosh ) ਨਿਜੁ ਪਤਿ ਪੈ ਹਤ ਕੇ ਨਿਮਿਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਪਚਾਸਿਕ ਵਾਰਿ ॥੧੪॥ With the intention of killing her husband she struck several times (I don't think she actually made 50 strikes, just a lot of strikes) ਨਿਰਖਿ ਚਮਕ ਤਰਵਾਰ ਕੀ ਦੁਰਯਾ ਮਹਿਖ ਤਰ ਜਾਇ ॥ Seeing the flash of the sword he hid under a leather rug (ਤਰ also means under)( the word ਦੁਰਯਾ means rug/covering) (ਮਹਿਖ means buffalo) (I can't see him hiding under an actual buffalo, becasue of the setting and also how preposterous it would sound as well. ) ਤਨਿਕ ਨ ਬ੍ਰਿਣ ਲਾਗਨ ਦਈ ਇਹ ਛਲ ਗਯੋ ਬਚਾਇ ॥੧੫॥ Not getting many injuries he survived by this act 15. Just to add there is no mention of the Prince being recalled or returned to prison in these charitars either. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 On 5/14/2018 at 9:41 PM, dalsingh101 said: Does the CP narrative now shift from the foolishness of people blinded by lust, to those that see through deceptions? I think it extends to what lengths people can go to when they are blinded by lust, and the need for revenge. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 1 minute ago, chatanga1 said: I think it extends to what lengths people can go to when they are blinded by lust, and the need for revenge. We have to keep an eye for possible subtle changes in themes. Keep track of how the narrative develops and groupings of the chariters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 20 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: What about this then? Niddar's translation below: Seeing the flash of the Tarvar sword, her husband hid under a buffalo; he received no serious blow. With such cunning he saved himself. (15) Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 On 5/14/2018 at 6:51 AM, chatanga1 said: That brings me onto another point. The other man worked for the husband but had no loyalty toward him at all. The above can remind us of the Pandit of the original tale, who did not tutor Hanwant Singh (thereby keeping him illiterate). His loyalty should have been towards the King (Chitar Singh), but he betrayed his master. In olden times, the role of the Pandit was very pertinent in educating the princes in the various fields of knowledge. This would prepare them to become suitable to sit on the throne in the future. Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 On 5/14/2018 at 6:51 AM, chatanga1 said: Firstly the man caught his wife enflagrant as in another charitar. But on that occasion the husband left both of them alone and persuaded his own mind to forget about it. Move on. But in this charitar the aggrieved party, the husband kills the other man. The difference being that, in this Charitar, the lover is an employee of the husband, but in that case, he was not. Therefore, the gravity of the crime is more intense in this case. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 40 minutes ago, paapiman said: Niddar's translation below: Seeing the flash of the Tarvar sword, her husband hid under a buffalo; he received no serious blow. With such cunning he saved himself. (15) Bhul chuk maaf Where are you getting Niddar's translation from? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 On 5/14/2018 at 6:51 AM, chatanga1 said: Then after the woman discovers her lover dead, she was hellbent on revenge and took a sword to kill any man she could find. The above can be related to the base tale. Chitar Mati possibly wants to avenge the destruction of her father's kingdom by Chitar Singh. Maybe the wise minister is trying to illustrate to Chitar Singh the powerful feelings of revenge, even in immoral women. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said: Where are you getting Niddar's translation from? From his book (kindle version), which is available on amazon. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 16, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 On 5/14/2018 at 6:51 AM, chatanga1 said: Why does the dogar wait a year? I think maybe he was giving her the chance to come clean herself and tell him the truth. Finally after a good amount of time, the Dogar knew she wouldn'tand decided to engineer things to solicit some kind of reaction from her. The reason for the wait could again (similar to Charitar# 33) be the honour of the family. Dogar was a wealthy man. We can assume that he had a good standing in the society. Imagine if his wife's body is discovered along with the lover's (indicating an affair), it could bring shame to the family. IMHO, the Dogar made a foolish mistake in exposing her for just refusing an errand/chore. He should have held on to this secret of hers and brought it out at an more appropriate time. Even though, there seems to be nothing in the verses to indicate that he acted impulsively, Niddar (please see below) has highlighted this point in this translation. Without pausing to think the Dogra retorted: “It pains me greatly that you refuse me. Have you forgotten that day woman, when you swam across the river after first disposing of your lover’s corpse in the river? You were not afraid then?” (12) Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 1 hour ago, dalsingh101 said: Where are you getting Niddar's translation from? Dal you are aware that Nidar Singh has brought out a kindle of CharitroPakhyan translations? 2 hours ago, paapiman said: The above can remind us of the Pandit of the original tale, who did not tutor Hanwant Singh (thereby keeping him illiterate). Good connection bro. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 1 hour ago, paapiman said: The above can be related to the base tale. Chitar Mati possibly wants to avenge the destruction of her father's kingdom by Chitar Singh. Maybe the wise minister is trying to illustrate to Chitar Singh the powerful feelings of revenge, even in immoral women. A very good connection there bro. I'm a little angry with myself that I didn't notice it myself, as it occurs twice in Mahabharat which I have been reading/watching recently. When Bhishma goes for Gandhari's hand in marriage for blind Dhritrashtar, both Shakuni and his father are too afraid of Bhishma to refuse him. Shakuni is very angry and swears to destroy the pandav kingdom. The other time Bhishma takes the 3 girls and one ends up killing herself but swears she will avenge herself on him in a new form of Shikandi. I'm seeing this in a new light as well. How physical power can in itself lead toward powerful and uncontrollable desires of revenge by those on the receiving end. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 16, 2018 Report Share Posted May 16, 2018 2 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Dal you are aware that Nidar Singh has brought out a kindle of CharitroPakhyan translations? Good connection bro. I've heard about it, but when I search amazon, it doesn't come up? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 17, 2018 19 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: I've heard about it, but when I search amazon, it doesn't come up? U still in UK? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078X3Q774 Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted May 17, 2018 Report Share Posted May 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, paapiman said: U still in UK? https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B078X3Q774 Bhul chuk maaf Yeah. Thanks. Funny that don't come up when you search for 'Nidar' on Amazon?? His hazoori book comes up though....hhmmm 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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