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2 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Was sorting out my steeks as they got into a bit of disorder and found this ! It belongs to my parents but I have been glancing through it and it is so interesting.

 

image.thumb.png.f031390d17f1cb57cdcf20afbf3f2cb6.png

@chatanga1 What do make of some of the critiques of Bhai Vir Singh's work, especially his editing and introduction of western concepts into Gurmat?

I think increasingly, people are seeing aspects of the SIngh Sabha lehar as a compromise to colonial rulers. What do you think of this? 

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17 hours ago, amardeep said:

Why interesting.  Show some examples 

Will do.

 

16 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

@chatanga1 What do make of some of the critiques of Bhai Vir Singh's work, especially his editing and introduction of western concepts into Gurmat?

I think increasingly, people are seeing aspects of the SIngh Sabha lehar as a compromise to colonial rulers. What do you think of this? 

This is the first work by Bhai Vir Singh that I will be reading extensively. So for me it's a new thing. Will be looking at some of the translations and comparing them with others and wil share anything I find interesting.

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On 5/16/2018 at 11:25 AM, chatanga1 said:

Will do.

 

This is the first work by Bhai Vir Singh that I will be reading extensively. So for me it's a new thing. Will be looking at some of the translations and comparing them with others and wil share anything I find interesting.

Do you mind if we zoom into certain vaars now and then? Maybe you could post images of Bhai Vir SIngh's interpretation of them?  

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Sure. Will add some later this evening.

One thing i wanted to ask in the meantime is whether this word " ਵਿਸੋਆ" from the line " ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਸੋਆ।" could be interpreted as "Vaisakhi" as some people have done. I can't see it myself as Vaisakhi.

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44 minutes ago, chatanga1 said:

Sure. Will add some later this evening.

One thing i wanted to ask in the meantime is whether this word " ਵਿਸੋਆ" from the line " ਘਰਿ ਘਰਿ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਧਰਮਸਾਲ ਹੋਵੈ ਕੀਰਤਨੁ ਸਦਾ ਵਿਸੋਆ।" could be interpreted as "Vaisakhi" as some people have done. I can't see it myself as Vaisakhi.

I agree. The grammatical structure (syntax I think it's called?) of Panjabi usually means each line ends with a verb.  

Context wise I would guess that it might be related to the word:

ਵੱਸਣਾ ?

"There should be a dharamsaal within each and every home [I think this means our internal homes, not physical ones] where kirtan eternally resides."

I know Mahan Kosh says it means Vasaikhi, but that doesn't seem right in this context.

Why don't you give the line in a wider context i.e. with what precedes and follows it. Might help us decipher the semantics better than the single pangti. 

 

Have you tried searching SGGS ji and DG for ਵਿਸੋਆ? Try and see if it comes up. If you going to try this, also search for the variant ਵਸੋਆ - that might give us a further indication of how the word is used. 

 

As for posting for the steek, I'd be really interested in how BVS interpreted those famous vaars that refer to the apparent discomfort felt about Guru Hargobind Ji's activities (in some quarters), compared to the preceding Gurus. Do you know what I'm talking about? 

Update: This one @chatanga1 - Vaar 26, Pauri 24 of 35

ਧਰਮਸਾਲ ਕਰਿ ਬਹੀਦਾ ਇਕਤ ਥਾਉਂ ਨ ਟਿਕੈ ਟਿਕਾਇਆ।

Dharamasaal Kari Baheedaa Ik Daaun N Tikai Tikaaiaa |

The earlier Gurus considered that to give instructions and to preach to the people, one has to sit at one place known as dharamshala, but this Guru (Hargobind) does riot stick to one place.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੧

ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਘਰਿ ਆਵਦੇ ਗੜਿ ਚੜਿਆ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹ ਚੜਾਇਆ।

Paatisaah Ghari Aavaday Garhi Charhiaa Paatisaah Charhaaiaa |

Earlier emperors would visit the house of the Guru, but this Guru has been interned by the king in a fort.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੨

ਉਮਤਿ ਮਹਲੁ ਨ ਪਾਵਦੀ ਨਠਾ ਫਿਰੈ ਨ ਡਰੈ ਡਰਾਇਆ।

Umati Mahalu N Paavadee Nathhaa Firai N Darai Daraaiaa |

The sarigat coming to have his glimpse cannot find him in the palace (because generally he is not available). Neither he is scared of anybody nor does he scare any one yet he is always on the move.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੩

ਮੰਜੀ ਬਹਿ ਸੰਤੋਖਦਾ ਕੁਤੇ ਰਖਿ ਸਿਕਾਰੁ ਖਿਲਾਇਆ।

Manjee Bahi Santokhadaa Kutay Rakhi Sikaaru Khilaaiaa |

Earlier Gurus sitting on the seat instructed people to be content but this Guru rears dogs and goes out for hunting.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੪

ਬਾਣੀ ਕਰਿ ਸੁਣਿ ਗਾਂਵਦਾ ਕਥੈ ਨ ਸੁਣੈ ਨ ਗਾਵਿ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ।

Baanee Kari Suni Gaanvadaa Kathhai N Sunai N Gaavi Sunaaiaa |

The Gurus used to listen to Gurbani but this Guru neither recites nor (regularly) listens to hymn-singing.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੫

ਸੇਵਕ ਪਾਸ ਨ ਰਖੀਅਨਿ ਦੋਖੀ ਦੁਸਟ ਆਗੂ ਮੁਹਿ ਲਾਇਆ।

Sayvak Paas N Rakheeani Dokhee Dusat Aagoo Muhilaaiaa |

He does not keep his follower servants with him and rather maintains nearness with the wicked and the envious ones (Guru had kept Painde Khan nearby).

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੬

ਸਚੁ ਨ ਲੁਕੈ ਲੁਕਾਇਆ ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਸਿਖ ਭਵਰ ਲੁਭਾਇਆ।

Sachu N Lukai Lukaaiaa Charan Kaval Sikh Bhavar Lubhaaiaa |

But the truth is never concealed and that is why on the lotus feet of the Guru, the mind of 'Sikhs hover like a greedy black-bee.

ਵਾਰਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ : ਵਾਰ ੨੬ ਪਉੜੀ ੨੪ ਪੰ. ੭

ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰੈ ਨ ਆਪੁ ਜਣਾਇਆ ॥੨੪॥

Ajaru Jarai N Aapu Janaaiaa 24

Guru Hargobding has borne the unbearable and he has not made himself manifest.

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On 5/17/2018 at 4:40 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Context wise I would guess that it might be related to the word:

ਵੱਸਣਾ ?

Yes it looks like this to me. To dwell, or to live in.

 

On 5/17/2018 at 4:40 PM, dalsingh101 said:

As for posting for the steek, I'd be really interested in how BVS interpreted those famous vaars that refer to the apparent discomfort felt about Guru Hargobind Ji's activities (in some quarters), compared to the preceding Gurus. Do you know what I'm talking about? 

Update: This one @chatanga1 - Vaar 26, Pauri 24 of 35

Ok, here it is. I haven't read it myself yet though Dal.

 

703964915_BhaiGurdas1.thumb.png.8b826da66a9a30824c4b635a6af8befc.pngIMG_6508.thumb.JPG.057bad9968dcc277f992953b7c6c811c.JPG

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3 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Yes it looks like this to me. To dwell, or to live in.

 

Ok, here it is. I haven't read it myself yet though Dal.

 

703964915_BhaiGurdas1.thumb.png.8b826da66a9a30824c4b635a6af8befc.pngIMG_6508.thumb.JPG.057bad9968dcc277f992953b7c6c811c.JPG

Interesting to note how 3 interpretations are given. (1) A literal historical interpretation, (2) a metaphoric one relating to the munh, and (3) one that posits a comparison to Mogul leadership over the Guru's one (which does seem a bit stretched to me at first glance). .  

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This was first printed in 1911 over a hundred years ago and there has also been a common word that has changed from those times :

 

We don't write "ਵਾਂਙੂ " anymore, we use "ਵਾਂਗੂ ".

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Quote

 

This was first printed in 1911 over a hundred years ago and there has also been a common word that has changed from those times :

We don't write "ਵਾਂਙੂ " anymore, we use "ਵਾਂਗੂ ".

 

 

You see a few things like that when you read older Singh Sabha literature. 

 

What does ਬਾਜ਼ੇ ਗਯਾਨੀ mean? How does one differ from a normal ਗਯਾਨੀ?

@chatanga1 Also you forgot to put the footnotes up. These things can be very important. 

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On 5/19/2018 at 4:05 PM, dalsingh101 said:

You see a few things like that when you read older Singh Sabha literature. 

Yeah, share any you have come across.

 

On 5/19/2018 at 4:05 PM, dalsingh101 said:

Also you forgot to put the footnotes up. These things can be very important. 

 

There were none for this Pauri.

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2 hours ago, chatanga1 said:

Yeah, share any you have come across.

 

 

There were none for this Pauri.

I try and limit or avoid Singh Sabha stuff these days. Prefer precolonial texts (although trying to read them can be tough, as you know). 

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I wonder what kind of shikaari dogs Guru ji kept? 

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Paintings of those centuries seem to show retreiver type hounds. There is a breed of dog found in the UK called "Afghan hound," whether its from Afghanistan or not I'm not sure. These dogs have taller slimmer bodies and have quick acceleration.

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