paapiman Posted May 17, 2018 Report Share Posted May 17, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Please read the Chartiar: Gurmukhi version https://www.searchgurbani.com/public/dasam-granth/page/1608 Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 Is this Charitar a case of male rape? It seems that the lady forced the peer to have sex with him. Notice the use of the word "ਜੋਰਾਵਰੀ" (by force) in the verse below. ਭੋਗ ਖੁਦਾਯਨ ਭਏ ਕਮਾਯੋ ॥ ਜੋਰਾਵਰੀ ਗਰਭ ਰਖਵਾਯੋ ॥ Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 According to Niddar, this Charitar is a case of PE (Premature Ejaculation). Please have a look below. As Sheikh Inayat mounted his woman Rustam Kala to make love, he would prematurely ejaculate; getting breathless he became very tired. This is the verse. ਹੋ ਚੜਤ ਖਲਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਿਰਤ ਬਾਇ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਤਿ ਥਕੈ ॥੨॥ The below is the translation by Gyani Ishar Singh jee: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 Millions of men suffer from PE (Premature Ejaculation). Maybe Sri Satguru jee was creating awareness among his Sikhs about this medical condition and how some immoral women will react to it. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 Who is the Peer she went to? Is the verse below referring to Sheikh Inayat (her husband) or a different Peer? ਇਕ ਦਿਨ ਪੀਰ ਪਾਸ ਤ੍ਰਿਯ ਗਈ ॥ Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 There seems to be multiple interpretations of this Charitar: Interpretation# 1 Rustam Kala is dissatisfied with her husband (Sheikh Inayat). She goes to a different Peer, has sex with him and gets herself impregnated. She claims that the Peer gave her a clove as a blessing, with which she becomes pregnant. Interpretation# 2 Rustam Kala is dissatisfied with her husband (Sheikh Inayat). She goes to her husband (who is a Peer too), gets a clove and then proclaims that she has been miraculously impregnated by the clove. But, the fact is that she is having an affair with another person by the name of Khuda Deen, who impregnates her. Please see below for clarification. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 19, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 19, 2018 There are two questions which come to mind Was Rustam Kala desperate to have a son (as seen in one of the earlier Charitars), which forced her to seek another male? This case would imply that her husband was suffering from Anejaculation (the inability to produce sperm). If a male suffers from PE, he can still produce sperm and impregnate his wife. Even, an impotent person can impregnate his wife. Did she want to enjoy sexual pleasures? Maybe she claimed that she was pregnant, in order to enjoy sexual pleasures with Khuda Deen. These are olden times (lack of birth control techniques), odds are very high that if you are having sex with a man, you will become pregnant. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 The behaviour of Rustam Kala can be compared to the base tale. The wise minister might be trying to tell Chittar Singh that look at Rustam Kala and her desperation to have a son. She forced a person to have sex with her to get impregnated. On the other hand, you are desperate to kill your own son, without thorough investigation. Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 4 hours ago, paapiman said: The behaviour of Rustam Kala can be compared to the base tale. The wise minister might be trying to tell Chittar Singh that look at Rustam Kala and her desperation to have a son. She forced a person to have sex with her to get impregnated. On the other hand, you are desperate to kill your own son, without thorough investigation. Bhul chuk maaf Or maybe the young queen wanted to seduce the young prince to have his baby. The old king probably couldn’t have kids due to old age, the old peer being synonymous to the old king here. The wise minister is talking About the continuation of kingship and heirs here. The queen wants her baby to become the next heir to the throne, - maybe she was planning to kill hanwant singh after having his baby and claiming it to be the kings 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 A very short Charitar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 22 hours ago, paapiman said: According to Niddar, this Charitar is a case of PE (Premature Ejaculation). Please have a look below. As Sheikh Inayat mounted his woman Rustam Kala to make love, he would prematurely ejaculate; getting breathless he became very tired. I don't think it is anything to do with premature ejaculation. It is more to do with the old age and ill-health of the husband. I see it as : ਹੋ ਚੜਤ ਖਲਤ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਗਿਰਤ ਬਾਇ ਮੁਖਿ ਅਤਿ ਥਕੈ ॥੨॥ As he attempted to perform intercourse, he would fall being wheezy and breathless. (2) If you look at Nara's translation he says the husband was very old and unable to perform "yog" - union with a woman. There is no mention of ejaculation. Now if you want to father a child, premature ejaculation has no bearing on that ability. Without sounding coarse, once the man has penetrated the woman, if it takes 10 seconds or 10 mins it is the same semen going in. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 15 minutes ago, chatanga1 said: Now if you want to father a child, premature ejaculation has bearing on that ability. You mean no bearing? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, paapiman said: You mean no bearing? Yes bro, thanks I have amended it. In this Charitar, we see a woman who we can deduce is young, because she is able to give birth to children, whilst her husband is old, in fact too old to perform intercourse. Where have we seen this before? IN the original background story. In this Charitar the young woman is concerned that her old husband is unable to sire children and having children is a very natural desire for a woman. In the actual story the woman uses the clove from the Peer but actually gets impregnated by another male, and gives credit to the Peer and his clove, whereas the actual reality is that the clove did nothing. Both the Peer and his clove were just a smokescreen to hide the impregnation by the other man. From this Charitar I see two things. One the root story is repeated in the marriage alliance. Here it feels like the Minister is saying to the King, you are an old man, would you have been able to take care of the Queen's natural desire to carry and give birth to children? The other thing I see is the pretence of obtaining a lucky/magical charm and giving it credit whereas the reality is hugely different. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 1 hour ago, chatanga1 said: Now if you want to father a child, premature ejaculation has no bearing on that ability. That's correct, but if Rustam Kala wanted to enjoy sexual pleasures, then PE would be an issue. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 9 minutes ago, paapiman said: That's correct, but if Rustam Kala wanted to enjoy sexual pleasures, then PE would be an issue. Sure, but in the story her mind is more afflicted with becoming a mother. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 35 minutes ago, chatanga1 said: The other thing I see is the pretence of obtaining a lucky/magical charm and giving it credit whereas the reality is hugely different. In a manner, this can also be related to the base tale. Chittar Singh's wife had left him (gone to Indar lok). He was trying to locate her. Chittar Mati looked like her, but was a different person. But, he was so blinded by love (or lust) of his wife that he wanted Chittar Mati to be her, which is not possible, except in a magical world. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 14 hours ago, amardeep said: The old king probably couldn’t have kids due to old age, the old peer being synonymous to the old king here. Is there any indication in the base tale that the King could not have a kid? We know for sure that Chittar Mati was not satisfied with Chittar Singh's sexual performance. ਸੋ ਨ ਕਰੈ ਕਛੁ ਚਾਰੁ ਚਿਤੈਬੇ ਕੋ ਖਾਇ ਗਿਰੀ ਮਨ ਮੈਨ ਤਵਾਰੋ ॥ ‘I am never satiated by Raja and, therefore, he cannot harm you in any way. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted May 20, 2018 Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 I think we will get to know more about the root story through each charitar later on. Right now the charitars add perspective to the root story but i think it will be reversed later on and the charitars will add new info to the root story. but let’s see what happens. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted May 20, 2018 Author Report Share Posted May 20, 2018 1 hour ago, chatanga1 said: Sure, but in the story her mind is more afflicted with becoming a mother. Most likely that's the case (as it talks about lack of progeny and Rustam Kala's anxiety in the same stanza), but the way Maharaaj has explicitly described the weak state (in a sexual sense) of her husband also indicates that she did want to enjoy sex. Remember Charitar (#25) of Prem Kumari. She was also worried about her husband's old age and his inability to produce a son. But in that Charitar, it was clear that the lady was solely focused on becoming a mother. She did not have any desires to enjoy sexual activities. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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