paapiman Posted June 30, 2018 Report Share Posted June 30, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Please read the Charitar: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 What a sad tale. The brave Jodha Bai saved the emperor from harm, but what she got in return was so depressing. This tale actually illustrates the stupidity of Jahangir. It doesn't matter what someone (or people) say about her. He should have been grateful to Jodha Bai for saving his life and commended (and rewarded) her courageous act. Such type of bravery is rare among women. This tale shows a woman in a very positive light. Sikh women should try to inculcate courage in their minds by reading such Charitars. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Connection to the base tale: The wise minister might be trying to say that the way Jodha Bai has not been rewarded for her brave action (of killing the lion), in the same way, you (Chittar Singh) are not rewarding your son for a great act (refusing to have sex with Chitar Mati). It definitely needs a strong willed person to refuse sexual advances of a beautiful woman. We need to remember that Hanuvant (the prince) could have enjoyed sexual pleasures with Chitar Mati and still have a chance to gain the throne. But, he remained steadfast in his ethical behaviour. Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Another Connection to the base tale: In this Charitar, the attendant (of Noor Jehan) utters the negative comment about Jodha Bai, as she feels that her mistress's position is in jeopardy. Similarly, the wise minster might be trying to tell Chitar SIngh that Chitar Mati feels that her position (in the royal family) might be in jeopardy, as her future son (if she has one) will not be the heir to the throne. Therefore, she might be behaving like the attendant in this tale by sowing seeds of mistrust. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 10, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 10, 2018 Jahangir has been ungrateful to Jodha Bai in this Charitar. An ungrateful person is heavily looked down upon in Gurbani. Please see below on what Bhai saab Bhai Gurdas jee says about the ungrateful person (ਅਕਿਰਤਘਣ): ਮਦ ਵਿਚਿ ਰਿਧਾ ਪਾਇਕੈ ਕੁਤੇ ਦਾ ਮਾਸੁ। The meat of dog cooked in the wine was, along with its foul smell, kept in the human skull. ਧਰਿਆ ਮਾਣਸ ਖੋਪਰੀ ਤਿਸੁ ਮੰਦੀ ਵਾਸੁ। It was covered with the blood stained cloth. ਰਤੂ ਭਰਿਆ ਕਪੜਾ ਕਰਿ ਕਜਣੁ ਤਾਸੁ। Covering thus, the scavenger woman (chi:than) after appeasing her lust was carrying that bowl. ਢਕਿ ਲੈ ਚਲੀ ਚੂਹੜੀ ਕਰਿ ਭੋਗ ਬਿਲਾਸੁ। On being asked about (the abominable covered material) ਆਖਿ ਸੁਣਾਏ ਪੁਛਿਆ ਲਾਹੇ ਵਿਸਵਾਸੁ। she cleared the doubt by saying that she had covered the meat to hide ਨਦਰੀ ਪਵੈ ਅਕਿਰਤਘਣੁ ਮਤੁ ਹੋਇ ਵਿਣਾਸੁ ॥੯॥ it from the sight of an ungrateful person to avoid its pollution. Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 There is a lack of sexual activity in this tale. How many Charitars have we had so far without any sexual activities? @amardeep There is this one and then the one where lady marks a tattoo on the bum of her coward husband. Any other(s)? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 On 7/10/2018 at 9:48 AM, paapiman said: Connection to the base tale: The wise minister might be trying to say that the way Jodha Bai has not been rewarded for her brave action (of killing the lion), in the same way, you (Chittar Singh) are not rewarding your son for a great act (refusing to have sex with Chitar Mati). It definitely needs a strong willed person to refuse sexual advances of a beautiful woman. We need to remember that Hanuvant (the prince) could have enjoyed sexual pleasures with Chitar Mati and still have a chance to gain the throne. But, he remained steadfast in his ethical behaviour. Excellent bro! That is a really sharp observation and connection to the base story. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 Reading this charitar, it seems like there is a bit on confusion. Jodha Bai here is the same Noor Jehan. I thought it was two women intially. Things that stand out on this charitar is that hunting traditionally has always been a mans game. But here the woman is actually encouraging an hunting party which involves the King and only other females. No other males. Doesn't that in itself stand out? So could it be that the main female Jodha/Noor initiated this hoping to acheive something? Like she wanted to show her prowess in hunting by instilling dread or fear into the King's heart? Who would have taught the other women how to ride horses, elephants and use weapons etc? The wives of the Kings were traditionally confined to the zenana. Wives of muslim Kings were never taught this kind of stuff as far as I know. But here the main wife and others are taking the King out to hunt. At the start of the story it says that the King was under the Queens control. At the end of the story he was petrified of her, even though she had saved his life by killing a lion. Imagine if this event happened the other way around. A man killed a lion to save a woman. Or a King killed a lion to save his Queen. Looking at this charitar makes me think that it was all part of a plan to subdue the King. And it worked. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 20 hours ago, chatanga1 said: Jodha Bai here is the same Noor Jehan. I thought it was two women intially. According to Niddar and Bindra, there are two women, one is Noor Jahan and the other is the Rajput lady, Jodha Bai (who was historically* one of the wives of Jahangir along with Noor Jahan and others). These are the verses which need to be examined to determine the number of people involved: ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢ ਨ ਪਈ ॥ ਜੋਧ ਬਾਇ ਯਹ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਿਹਾਰਿਯੋ ॥ * - according to some historians Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 6 minutes ago, paapiman said: According to Niddar and Bindra, there are two women, one is Noor Jahan and the other is the Rajput lady, Jodha Bai (who was historically* one of the wives of Jahangir along with Noor Jahan and others). These are the verses which need to be examined to determine the number of people involved: ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢ ਨ ਪਈ ॥ ਜੋਧ ਬਾਇ ਯਹ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਿਹਾਰਿਯੋ ॥ * - according to some historians Bhul chuk maaf Other possible Paath: ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ ਜੋਧ ਬਾਇ ਯਹ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਿਹਾਰਿਯੋ ॥ Bhul chuk maaf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 17, 2018 Report Share Posted July 17, 2018 7 hours ago, paapiman said: According to Niddar and Bindra, there are two women, one is Noor Jahan and the other is the Rajput lady, Jodha Bai (who was historically* one of the wives of Jahangir along with Noor Jahan and others). Yes, after re-reading it, i'm thinking that there were two queens involved in the story. Could the story have also involved some kind of rivalry between the women over the King? I'm going to look at the Gurmukhi text a little more first. 7 hours ago, paapiman said: ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ ਜੋਧ ਬਾਇ ਯਹ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਿਹਾਰਿਯੋ ॥ Bro, add the verse number just to make that little bit easier to locate the text. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 9:34 AM, paapiman said: Other possible Paath: ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ ਜੋਧ ਬਾਇ ਯਹ ਤਾਹਿ ਨਿਹਾਰਿਯੋ ॥ Bhul chuk maaf Four interpretations are possible based on different Paaths and the meanings of the two words below. ਠਾਂਢ - Cold ਠਾਢ - Stand ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan just kept standing. ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਢ ਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan could not stand still there. ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan became frozen. ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢ ਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan could not maintain her cool (composure). Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 4:46 PM, chatanga1 said: Bro, add the verse number just to make that little bit easier to locate the text. Stanza# 18. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 24, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 24, 2018 On 7/17/2018 at 4:46 PM, chatanga1 said: Yes, after re-reading it, i'm thinking that there were two queens involved in the story. According to Nara saab, there is only one queen (Noor Jahan). ਜੋਧ ਬਾਇ means a brave lady, which is referring to Noor Jahan itself. Is it possible that this Chartiar has two interpretations? What does Gyani Harbhajan Singh jee state in his katha? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 25, 2018 Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 On 7/24/2018 at 2:30 PM, paapiman said: Four interpretations are possible based on different Paaths and the meanings of the two words below. ਠਾਂਢ - Cold ਠਾਢ - Stand ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan just kept standing. ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਢ ਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan could not stand still there. ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan became frozen. ਨੂਰ ਜਹਾਂਦਿਕ ਠਾਂਢ ਨ ਪਈ ॥ Noor Jahan could not maintain her cool (composure). Great stuff there bro. I think that with those lines that don't make it clear we need to try what you have above and explore different approaches. I will try and locate Gyani Harbhajan Singhs katha on it. The only thing with finding his katha on it is that he has recorded several charitars in one sitting so it makes it a little more harder to find. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 25, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 25, 2018 2 minutes ago, chatanga1 said: I will try and locate Gyani Harbhajan Singhs katha on it. The only thing with finding his katha on it is that he has recorded several charitars in one sitting so it makes it a little more harder to find. Do you think Kam Paaji can help us with the above? Can he label the files with the Charitar numbers? It will make it a lot easier for us to locate the Charitars then. Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 26, 2018 Report Share Posted July 26, 2018 I can ask him 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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