paapiman Posted June 30, 2018 Report Share Posted June 30, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Please read the Charitar: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 4, 2018 Report Share Posted July 4, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 According to Nidar, this person (husband of Nand Mati) was a Sikh of Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 This Charitar illustrates the ugly side of ego. Nand Mati would praise her husband (feed his ego) and that's all it took for her to control him. He felt elated at being called a Sadhu/Sant, and in the process just ignored the illicit activities of his wife. Sikhs should learn from this tale to never loose their objectivity, even when they are made to feel great about themselves. For example, someone might keep praising you in order to make you feel good/build a good rapport with you and then use you for some ulterior motive of his own. Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 Connection to the base tale The wise minister might be trying to tell Chittar Singh that as the husband (in this tale) has lost his objectivity due to his ego and is behaving irrationally; so have you lost yours in the love for your wife and are planning to do something very stupid (pronounce death sentence on your own son). Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 Deception through flattery 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 9 minutes ago, amardeep said: Deception through flattery Is their a word to express deception which is visible to you, but you cannot do (or wont do) anything about it due to some reason(s)? In this tale, yes, she is deceiving him, but she is also not hiding her despicable acts from him. "Open/Exposed Deception through flattery". Not sure if that even makes sense. @dalsingh101 - Any ideas? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 It's similiar in theme but not in degree to the earlier charitar where the Truth is used to decieve. The deception is in front of you - completely visible - but you do not see it 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 I think Nidar Singh did a video on this charitar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted July 12, 2018 Report Share Posted July 12, 2018 On another note it could talk about the balance in spiritual life vs. worldly life ie balanced grishti. In this case we are dealing with a guy that spends all his time on spirituality to the extent that he is being taken advantage of by people. He is refered to as an idiot for spending all his time on spiritual matters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 13, 2018 Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 21 hours ago, paapiman said: According to Nidar, this person (husband of Nand Mati) was a Sikh of Sri Satguru jee (Tenth Master). Bhul chuk maaf Yeah, that's interesting. The English translation above doesn't allude to that but the Panjabi translation posted by Chatanga (line 41) says that Guru ji reprimanded the husband who would come to the Gurdwara and lay down all day. Can we get the original text from DG up? Again, I notice at this stage of the chariters, the shocking, violent nature of the earlier ones die down and they become more realistic or subtle. Could this be the literary use of shock tactics (or sensationalism) to draw readers in and then a shift to a more subtle didactic strategy? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said: Can we get the original text from DG up? https://www.searchgurbani.com/public/dasam-granth/page/1620 6 minutes ago, dalsingh101 said: The English translation above doesn't allude to that but the Panjabi translation posted by Chatanga (line 41) says that Guru ji reprimanded the husband who would come to the Gurdwara and lay down all day Gurmukhi version of the above: ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਕਹਈ ॥੨॥ Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 13, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 13, 2018 On 7/12/2018 at 9:47 AM, amardeep said: On another note it could talk about the balance in spiritual life vs. worldly life ie balanced grishti. In this case we are dealing with a guy that spends all his time on spirituality to the extent that he is being taken advantage of by people. Good point. IMHO, a person who is too deep into spirituality should avoid marriage, until and unless he can find a good pativarta istri/Sati. From a different perspective, this type of individual will be a failure in the spiritual realm too, as he is infected with ego. He started considering himself to be a great sadhu due to flattery of one individual (his wife). Now, if he was a Sadhu, just imagine what would happen if many people would start referring to him as a great Saint. This guy would have possibly started feeling that he is the greatest saint of all times. Bhul chuk maaf 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. It seems from the Charitar that this person actually knew what his wife was up to and still did not reprimand her. Most spiritual/religious/ethical people would abandon such a wife. She is behaving like a prostitute, but still this person is staying with her. Daas might be stretching here, but there are some men out there, who might behave like this fool. There is a psychology behind their thinking. Below are some excerpts from an article (Psychology Today) which can explain this abnormal (unethical) behavior. Quote The Thrill of the Taboo - there are few things in our society as stigmatized as a husband whose wife is unfaithful. Historically, such men have been beaten, ostracized and ridiculed, and regarded as weak, "sissy men." Some of the men I interviewed described explicitly that the taboo was the thrill for them, from the excitement of the forbidden and the naughty. --- The royalty perk - In the 1960's Motown song, the line goes "save the last dance for me," as the husband watches his wife dance with other men. Many of the men I interviewed got a thrill, a sense of being "king" that they had a wife who was so sexy, that other men wanted to be with, but who ultimately came home with him, the husband. It made the men feel powerful and successful, that they had such a sexy wife. Unquote[1] [1] - https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/201007/why-would-you-do-watch-your-wife-another-man Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 15, 2018 Report Share Posted July 15, 2018 8 hours ago, paapiman said: Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. It seems from the Charitar that this person actually knew what his wife was up to and still did not reprimand her. Most spiritual/religious/ethical people would abandon such a wife. She is behaving like a prostitute, but still this person is staying with her. Daas might be stretching here, but there are some men out there, who might behave like this fool. There is a psychology behind their thinking. Below are some excerpts from an article (Psychology Today) which can explain this abnormal (unethical) behavior. Quote The Thrill of the Taboo - there are few things in our society as stigmatized as a husband whose wife is unfaithful. Historically, such men have been beaten, ostracized and ridiculed, and regarded as weak, "sissy men." Some of the men I interviewed described explicitly that the taboo was the thrill for them, from the excitement of the forbidden and the naughty. --- The royalty perk - In the 1960's Motown song, the line goes "save the last dance for me," as the husband watches his wife dance with other men. Many of the men I interviewed got a thrill, a sense of being "king" that they had a wife who was so sexy, that other men wanted to be with, but who ultimately came home with him, the husband. It made the men feel powerful and successful, that they had such a sexy wife. Unquote[1] [1] - https://www.psychologytoday.com/intl/blog/women-who-stray/201007/why-would-you-do-watch-your-wife-another-man Bhul chuk maaf There are men who will allow other men to shag their wives whilst they watch! (and presumably jack off?), some will even pay the bloke to do his missus. But in this chariter I think we are being shown a complete fudhoo, and how he behaves. This situation of timid men having wives who are wildly promiscuous is still very common today. When I used to work in offices, I met plenty of married women who would shag anyone they fancied. I heard this one pretty blonde had shagged about 30 guys + before she tried to make a move on me (the new guy). (In hindsight) I'm glad I never jumped on it then. Like I said this is more common than people might think in society even today. The bloke sounds like a complete lulloo. I believe this is an example of a bad match. Where the wife has a very high sex drive and thrill seeking personality and the bundha is like a completely docile pajama trying to find a place for himself in society behind some sort of 'holy persona'. He obviously has self-esteem issues and the women is obviously not remotely attracted to him. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 I 've attached what Jaggi translated it as. He doesn't mention "Gurdwara" in his translation at all. Neither does the original text mention this either. I'm inclined to think that "Gurdwara" shouldn't be there as well because this term was not in use in Guru Sahib's time to describe what we call Gurdwaras today. Plus this is not Guru Sahib writing from his own person. History tells us that Guru Sahib was translating the more difficult sanskrit texts into Braj and was using the dictation of the learned poets when doing so. The words "Anandpur, Guru, Bhagat, Kalyug" also feature in this which can make it feel that there was such a Sikh. But i'm not convinced (yet.) Reading the charitar and doing a little research into some of the words used in that particular sentence ਸੋ that ਜੜ unaware/ignorant of/fool ਪਰਾ can mean "release, opposition, face to face, sacrifice, bravery, disrespect, most high, lying down" according to Mahan Kosh. (because of the word ਜੜ I can't see it as being one of the positive attributes.) ਹਮਾਰੇ mine ਰਹਈ stayed remained or kept 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਕਹਈ ॥੨॥ However one thing I've noticed is that if we change the wording slightly, we get a different meaning to it : ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾਹ ਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਕਹਈ ॥੨॥ This would give us the meaning of " (when) that fool recieved beatings, he would say no words from his mouth." 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 4 hours ago, chatanga1 said: ਪਰਾਹ What does this word mean? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 minute ago, dalsingh101 said: What does this word mean? It seems like meaning "taken to/given/received" to me. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 4 hours ago, chatanga1 said: It seems like meaning "taken to/given/received" to me. Are you guessing?# Did you check MK? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 16, 2018 Report Share Posted July 16, 2018 2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: Are you guessing? Unfortunately yes because I couldn't bring english meaning to mind. 2 hours ago, dalsingh101 said: Did you check MK? Yes and then word came to mind: "deliver". Not to say that it is correct. Just a theory I have as the present views don't seem to make to much sense to me. What do you think of the way the charitar is worded? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 On 7/16/2018 at 5:01 AM, chatanga1 said: ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਕਹਈ ॥੨॥ However one thing I've noticed is that if we change the wording slightly, we get a different meaning to it : ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾਹ ਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੋ ਕਛੂ ਨ ਮੁਖ ਤੇ ਕਹਈ ॥੨॥ What is the Paath given by Nara jee in his steek? Thanks Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 21, 2018 Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 3 minutes ago, paapiman said: What is the Paath given by Nara jee in his steek? Line 41 on the first pic bro, It says that "Guru Ji says that this fool used to come by us and lie down in the Gurdwara all day " Jaggi doesn't mention Gurdwara. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted July 21, 2018 Author Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 minutes ago, chatanga1 said: Line 41 on the first pic bro, It says that "Guru Ji says that this fool used to come by us and lie down in the Gurdwara all day " Jaggi doesn't mention Gurdwara. Paath bro, not the translation. Is the Paath (in Nara jee's steek) ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ or ਸੋ ਜੜ ਪਰਾਹ ਮਾਰੇ ਰਹਈ ॥ Have you come across the latter version of the Paath anywhere? Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted July 21, 2018 Report Share Posted July 21, 2018 No I haven't. It was just a thought I had when looking at the original text. I couldn't work out where the other authors has got "me/gurdwara/us" from. This is from Gyani Narayan Singh's steek: Note that Gyani Ji uses the word "baitha" ie sitting, rather than lying. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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