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MrDoaba

Why isn't Mata Sahib Devan Ji mentioned in the Ardaas?

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Recently I have been pondering over this a lot...why isn't Mata Ji mentioned in the Ardaas? Almost all the key figures in the Panth throughout history and currently are mentioned either directly or indirectly, but oddly enough the Mother of the Panth has no mention. Not only that but Mata Ji has generally been sidelined and treated as a background figure up until recently where there has been (somewhat) more awareness of Her status, which in actual fact is a very exalted status; Mata Sahib Devan Ji is the Puran Sargun Saroop of Adi Shakti.

Why isn't She talked about more? Why do we not do Ardaas to Her? Why is She not remembered or invoked on a daily basis? Aside from a brief mention on Baisakhi there is nothing.

The Mother of the Sikh Panth, of the Khalsa, Jagat Mata, is Adi Shakti Herself. We are blessed. And we as a Panth need to take it upon ourselves to pay homage to Her, and give Her the utmost respect and reverence.

Mata Ji is Ang Sang Sahai...

ਖਾਲਸਾ ਦੇ ਮਾਤਾ ਆਦਿ ਸ਼ਕਤੀ ਸ੍ਵਰੂਪ ਧੰਨ ਮਾਤਾ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਦੇਵਾਂ ਜੀ ਸਭ ਥਾਈਂ ਹੋਇ ਸਹਾਇ ॥

Please share your thoughts.

Gurbar Akaal!!!

 

 

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Good question, i would think from shiv shakat perspective, shakti-life force form (nari) is incomplete (adhuri) without 'PURKH' formless so thats why focus is mainly on purkh. All though, there are many arguments based on our history which refutes the above perspective as sargun-maya-anything with form is glorified in gurmat sidhant too.

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2 minutes ago, sarabatam said:

Good question, i would think from shiv shakat perspective, shakti-life force form (nari) is incomplete (adhuri) without 'PURKH' formless so thats why focus is mainly on purkh. All though, there are many arguments based on our history which refutes the above perspective as sargun-maya-anything with form is glorified in gurmat sidhant too.

Good points beere. I will say though however, even if we put aside the deeper theological arguments for a second, Mata Ji still warrants a specific and complete mention in the Ardaas, at least for Her conspicuous role as the Mother of the Panth.

 

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This is a very good question. I have wondered for a long time about this sidelining as well. In Christianity you have an exalted position of Mary, in Hinduism on the devi and in Islam on Fatima. Whereas in sikhi there is no central female figure.  

 

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2 hours ago, amardeep said:

Whereas in sikhi there is no central female figure. 

In Guru Granth Sahib, Maya ji is the central Maternal figure. There are many references to Maya ji as Mother in Guru Granth Sahib if anyone reads it attentively.

The Ardas also starts with Prithm Bhagauti simar kai, which is referring to Maya ji. So I would say that just about covers the Divine Mother.

 

But as for specific historical mothers -

7 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

why isn't Mata Ji mentioned in the Ardaas?

Why isn't Mai Bhago ji mentioned in the Ardas? or Bebe Nanaki ji? or Bibi Bhani ji?

These mothers played a far more important role in Sikh history than Mata Sahib Dewan.

 

While we are on this train -

What about Mardana ji? or Bhai Gurdas ji? or Banda Singh ji Bahadur?

Are they not important?

 

Why isn't Raja Ram Chandra ji mentioned in Ardas? Don't we read in Dasam Granth that he is the father of Guru Gobind Singh ji?

Why isn't Krishan ji mentioned in the Ardas?

Ek Krishnam sarb deva dev deva ta atma, atma Vasudevasya je koi janai bhev.

The one sentence from Asa di Vaar that encapsulates the entirety of Sikh philosophy and the purpose of our existence, and there is no mention of it in the Ardas.

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36 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

Why isn't Mai Bhago ji mentioned in the Ardas? or Bebe Nanaki ji? or Bibi Bhani ji?

These mothers played a far more important role in Sikh history than Mata Sahib Dewan.

 

While we are on this train -

What about Mardana ji? or Bhai Gurdas ji? or Banda Singh ji Bahadur?

Are they not important?

 

Why isn't Raja Ram Chandra ji mentioned in Ardas? Don't we read in Dasam Granth that he is the father of Guru Gobind Singh ji?

Why isn't Krishan ji mentioned in the Ardas?

 Ek Krishnam sarb deva dev deva ta atma, atma Vasudevasya je koi janai bhev.

The one sentence from Asa di Vaar that encapsulates the entirety of Sikh philosophy and the purpose of our existence, and there is no mention of it in the Ardas.

Are you retarded? I think you are!

Mata Sahib Devan was the mother of the Khalsa! Every amritdhari is told that the father is Guru Gobind Singh Ji and mother is Mata Sahib Devan Ji.

Mata Ji actually did a lot after Guru Gobind Singh Ji went to Sachkhand. It was because Mata Ji cursed Banda Bahadur, that Banda Bahadur lost his shakti etc. 

Read a book on Mata Ji and you will understand.

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12 minutes ago, BhagatSingh said:

In Guru Granth Sahib, Maya ji is the central Maternal figure. There are many references to Maya ji as Mother in Guru Granth Sahib if anyone reads it attentively.

You should write a whole Teeka then, its apparent no-one else has yet to read it as intently as you. 

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The Ardas also starts with Prithm Bhagauti simar kai, which is referring to Maya ji. So I would say that just about covers the Divine Mother.

No Bhagauti isn't Maya, If you ever venture out and look at the Arths done by proper Gurmukh Vidhants, you'd know its a reference to Akaal Purkh's Primordial Power (or a Sri Sahib), that power creates maya etc but it isn't maya entirely. 

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 These mothers played a far more important role in Sikh history than Mata Sahib Dewan.

Have you ever read any of Mata Ji history? She lead the panth after Guru Pita left for Sachkhand, she was issuing Hukamnamas for the panth, There's books about her Ithihaas too, Mata Ji did alot of seva for the panth. Dear Lord dude. What a nice thing to say about your mother. 

 

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Why isn't Mai Bhago ji mentioned in the Ardas? or Bebe Nanaki ji? or Bibi Bhani ji?

None of them were given the status of Mother of the Khalsa, That is a huge huge deal. 

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What about Mardana ji? or Bhai Gurdas ji? or Banda Singh ji Bahadur?

They are mentioned in Shaheed Singh and other Gursikhs lines of the Ardaas.

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Why isn't Raja Ram Chandra ji mentioned in Ardas? Don't we read in Dasam Granth that he is the father of Guru Gobind Singh ji?

Well you might, since its apparent you have selective reading glasses on most of the time. Guru Gobind Singh Ji's physical saroop (family) is descended from Raghu Vansh, Lord Ram falls into the same family but no he isn't the father of Guru Ji.

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 Why isn't Krishan ji mentioned in the Ardas?

He'd fall under those that helped the Panth too but that's subjective depending on who you ask.

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Ek Krishnam sarb deva dev deva ta atma, atma Vasudevasya je koi janai bhev.

The one sentence from Asa di Vaar that encapsulates the entirety of Sikh philosophy and the purpose of our existence, and there is no mention of it in the Ardas.

The Mool Mantar is what encompasses Sikh Philosophy. Taking a verse and then spinning it to your usual narratives doesn't make it so.  You seem to bring the same verses out again and again to promote the same nonsense. Krishna Ji wasn't a Puran Saroop of Akaal Purkh, There has only been one and that was in the form of Satguru Nanak Dev Ji. If you ever bother reading Dasam Granth Sahib (and given your above comment it's clear you haven't) you'd know this. That verse that you pasted here, its again a reference to Nirgun Parmeshwar, NOT Krishna the avtar of Lord Vishnu.

 

Your entire post is just use blowing your usual hot air and trying to come across as a self proclaimed "baba", no offence but OP here is discussing the Mother of the Khalsa, not the anyone else. All respect is due to the likes of Mata Nanaki Ji and Mai Bhago Ji but none of them were made the mother of the Khalsa and the Panth itself.  That as a status is huge considering Guru Ji treasured the Khalsa above anything else, so much so he wrote an entire ustat about it. This is about the Mother of the Khalsa. 

 

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It turns out i lost their recording , corrupted voice recorder so disappointed i asked them about four questions. I will write their answers from memory:

- They said mata sahib devan always want to honor her husband in this case - sri guru gobind singh ji, didnt want any recongition in general shakti is not different from vahiguru as its leen in vahiguru ,  mata sahib devan didn't want any recognition in  ardas so her wish was fullfilled. I am not sure there is historical sakhi on this.

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The most amazing thing about the Ardaas is that it is a living document that can be updated from time to time. I think within 20 years it will be updated to include the situation of the 80s and 90s Punjab. I also hope the Afghan ardaas will include the tragic terror incidents of 1 july 2018 where the Afghan Singh leadership was completely wiped out.

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On 9/13/2018 at 5:50 PM, Singh123456777 said:

Mata Sahib Devan was the mother of the Khalsa! Every amritdhari is told that the father is Guru Gobind Singh Ji and mother is Mata Sahib Devan Ji.

Yes I know that. I believe Mata Sahib Dewan to be my mother but Mai Bhago ji, Bibi Bhani ji, Mata Sulakhani ji, Mata Gujri ji, Bebe Nanaki are also my mothers.

My point wasn't to diminish the contribution to Mata Sahib Dewan, although I see I have some learning to do in that regard, it was to highlight the importance of all the other mothers and fathers who have contributed and are not being talked about here or in the present mainstream Ardas.

I am not saying "don't mention Mata Sahib Dewan because she is not important". I am saying "Mention these others figures as well" in the form of a rhetorical question "Why are they not mentioned in the first place?"

 

Call me retarded if you like but I think it is important to highlight them.

On 9/13/2018 at 5:50 PM, Singh123456777 said:

Mata Ji actually did a lot after Guru Gobind Singh Ji went to Sachkhand. It was because Mata Ji cursed Banda Bahadur, that Banda Bahadur lost his shakti etc. 

On 9/13/2018 at 6:17 PM, Reader said:

She lead the panth after Guru Pita left for Sachkhand, she was issuing Hukamnamas for the panth, There's books about her Ithihaas too, Mata Ji did alot of seva for the panth.

Source?

 

On 9/13/2018 at 5:52 PM, Singh123456777 said:

Thats why the Khalsa is called Surya Vanshi. And secondly, all were descended from rhagu vansh which included ram chandar. 

Firstly, it's Ram Chandra ji, not "ram chandar". Show some respect.

Secondly, state the full truth. Guru Gobind Singh ji, or if you believe another Kavi wrote it then that Kavi, specifically states that Guru ji descended from the sons of Ram Chandra ji. This makes Ram Chandra ji his forefather.

Thirdly, Guru Gobind Singh ji's actions map out on the Moral Code that is set forth by Raja Ram Chandra ji's actions in Sant Valmiki ji's Ramayan.

This moral code can be briefly summarized as -

1. Take up Responsibility and do what is Responsible

2. Obey your Parents and Mentors

3. Protect the Saints and Fight the Tyrants

4. Do the above, even if that means sacrificing things you hold close to you, ie. letting go of the people you love. So make sacrifices to uphold Responsible Action.

Guru ji followed this code to the letter and this makes Guru ji not just the biological son but also the spiritual son.

 

Call me RSS if you like but I think this is an important fact that some in our community have forgotten and/or ignored, to their own detriment. Some have gone so far as attacking and maligning the reality and the character of Ram Chandra ji in order to further their agenda.

 

@Reader

There is lots to unpack in your post so I'll just start listing off my thoughts.

@amardeep

This is intended as a more detailed response to your post as well.

 

On 9/13/2018 at 6:17 PM, Reader said:

You should write a whole Teeka then, its apparent no-one else has yet to read it as intently as you.  

1. I'll take you up on that but in this case, Maya ji as Divine Mother is mentioned in all existing Teekas.

On 9/13/2018 at 6:17 PM, Reader said:

No Bhagauti isn't Maya, If you ever venture out and look at the Arths done by proper Gurmukh Vidhants, you'd know its a reference to Akaal Purkh's Primordial Power (or a Sri Sahib), that power creates maya etc but it isn't maya entirely. 

2. The words Ma -> Mai -> Maiya -> Maya are all related words, the root of which is Ma or Mother.

3. Maya ji is the Manifest Energy of Bhagwat. She is the Divine Mother and he is the Divine Father

Baishno so jis upar suprasan Bishan ki Maya te hoe bhin

Bishan is Father, Maya is Mother.

 

4. Bhagwati and Maya are referring to the same Mother. Though there are some exceptions in colloquial usage.

Maya is sometimes used to refer to money (in the present century) or material attachment (by the medieval Saints) whereas Bhagwati refers to the sword (the curved sabre is symbol of the Divine Mother) or devotees of Bhagwat (e.g. in Sukhmani sahib, - Bhagauti Bhagwant Bhagti ka rang ).

 

5. Divine Masculine-Divine Feminine duality is talked about in Guru Granth Sahib, where it is talked about as Hari-Maya -

Baishno so jis upar suprasan Bishan ki Maya te hoe bhin

- and Shiv-Shakti -

Jeh dekha teh Ravi rahe Shiv Shakti ka mel

 

6.

Divine Masculine-Divine Feminine
Purush-Prakriti
Shiv-Shakti
Dev-Devi
Vishnu-Lakshmi
Bhagwat-Bhagwati
Hari-Maya
Ram-Sita
Mahakal-Kalika
Guru-Mata
Piri-Miri
Husband-Wife
Paternal-Maternal
Pattern-Matter
Consciousness-Energy
Spiritual-Material

These are our -

Father-Mother

 

7.

I recently talked about this topic on a different forum, and it addresses the points you have made in your post.

Quote

In our ancient post-vedic-period texts, Krishan ji, Ram ji, Vishnu ji, Shiv ji, Agni ji and in the texts of vedic and pre-vedic period, Indra ji, Brahma ji, are referring to Supreme Being, Supreme Consciousness. So the texts must be read with this in mind.

For example, the imagery of Shri Krishna dancing with the Gopis is the image of Supreme Consciousness dancing with Individual Consciousness, of Supreme Spirit playing with Individual Spirits.

The Saints like Kabir ji viewed Shri Ram Chandra ji as his Husband, where he is the individual Consciousness who is married to the Supreme Consciousness.

The Saints viewed the the world as created by the Union of Vishnu ji/Shiv ji (father spirit, paternal patterns) and Lakshmi ji/Shakti ji (mother matter, maternal materials).

When a Pattern is imposed on a Material, then it gives birth to a Form and there is great Beauty in that Union. And that is the Union of Spirit and Matter.

Guru Nanak Dev ji says - Jeh dekha teh Ravi rahe Shiv Shakti ka mel. Wherever I look I see the Divine Light residing, the Union of Shiva - Spirit - and Shakti - Matter.

When Spirit penetrates Matter, it gives birth to life, to us because we are composed to matter and spirit.

Our Body is made of Matter and our Mind is all Spirit.

So we are children of the Great Father Spirit and Great Mother Matter.

You may call them Spirit and Matter, you may call them Vishnu ji and Lakshmi ji or you may call them Shiv ji and Shakti ji, or you may call them Mahakal ji and Kalika ji.

Mahakal hai pita apara;
Devi Kalika maat hamara.
Mahakal ji is my Limitless Father, Devi Kalika ji is my Mother.
- Dasam Granth

 

8.

Your post -

On 9/13/2018 at 6:17 PM, Reader said:

The Mool Mantar is what encompasses Sikh Philosophy.

The Mool Manter is a Manglacharan, which is a bowing to a set of principles or ideals which anyone from (almost) any philosophy can agree with.

It is important to Sikh philosophy but not the specific defining feature of the philosophy that is espoused in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

The philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib is summarized by -

Ek Krishnam sarb deva dev deva ta atma, atma Vasudevasya je koi janai bhev, Nanak ta ka das hai, soi Niranjan Dev.

 

9.

The methodology of Guru Granth Sahib is summarized in this Ashtpadi -

Baishno so jis upar suprasan, Bishan ki Maya te hoye bhin.

karam karat hvai nehkaram, tis Baishno ka nirmal dharam.

kahu phal ki ichha nahi vanchai, keval bhagti kirtan sangi rachai.

man tan antari simran Gopal, sabh upre hovat kirpal.

aape drirhai avra naam japavai, so baishno  param gati pavai.


The Ardas does talk about this methodology a little but but does not talk about the philosophy.

 

10.

The Ardas also does not mention all the Saints who bani is recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, like Kabir ji, Nam Dev ji, Ravi Das ji etc and all the Saints who are revered in the bani like Prahlaad ji, Sudama ji, Valmiki ji etc.

 

19 hours ago, amardeep said:

The most amazing thing about the Ardaas is that it is a living document that can be updated from time to time. I think within 20 years it will be updated to include the situation of the 80s and 90s Punjab. I also hope the Afghan ardaas will include the tragic terror incidents of 1 july 2018 where the Afghan Singh leadership was completely wiped out.

Agreed. The Ardas is a collective Sikh prayer created by the Sikhs and so it can be updated. And I think it is due for some improvements.

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11 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Yes I know that. I believe Mata Sahib Dewan to be my mother but Mai Bhago ji, Bibi Bhani ji, Mata Sulakhani ji, Mata Gujri ji, Bebe Nanaki are also my mothers

For amritdhari khalsas(which i know you are not) Mata Sahib Devan is the sole mother. 

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13 hours ago, BhagatSingh said:

Yes I know that. I believe Mata Sahib Dewan to be my mother but Mai Bhago ji, Bibi Bhani ji, Mata Sulakhani ji, Mata Gujri ji, Bebe Nanaki are also my mothers.

My point wasn't to diminish the contribution to Mata Sahib Dewan, although I see I have some learning to do in that regard, it was to highlight the importance of all the other mothers and fathers who have contributed and are not being talked about here or in the present mainstream Ardas.

 

None of them were made the Mother of the Khalsa, that alone is a huge honour. You are deminishing her contribution, in-fact you outright said that the other Bibis did more for the panth than Mata Ji did. Don't retract now.

Quote

Source?

The physical hukamnamas that are present, you can view them online.

Quote

Firstly, it's Ram Chandra ji, not "ram chandar". Show some respect.

Wow, it's the proverbial pot calling the kettle black. Firstly it's Mata Sahib Devan JI  not Mata Sahib Devan. Funny how you call for respect but seem to refuse to give any.

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 Secondly, state the full truth. Guru Gobind Singh ji, or if you believe another Kavi wrote it then that Kavi, specifically states that Guru ji descended from the sons of Ram Chandra ji. This makes Ram Chandra ji his forefather.

Thirdly, Guru Gobind Singh ji's actions map out on the Moral Code that is set forth by Raja Ram Chandra ji's actions in Sant Valmiki ji's Ramayan.

And his forefather was Raja Dasrath, and so on and so forth. Why stop at Lord Rama? 

Quote

Guru ji followed this code to the letter and this makes Guru ji not just the biological son but also the spiritual son.

I'm gonna quote something you wrote later on, because it seems you want to place Lord Rama in the same Category as Guru Ji. The below quote from you should pretty much answer your own question

Quote

which is a bowing to a set of principles or ideals which anyone from (almost) any philosophy can agree with.

So basically Valmiki Ji (writing down the words of Lord Rama) put forth common sense, and suddenly because Guru Ji said the same he's the Spiritual Son but when it comes to the Mool Mantar "oh everyone can agree on that" . Read Dasam Granth Sahib for once, Guru Ji flat out says that the Chaubis Avtar were unable to comprehend God, While Satguru Ji is Pooran Waheguru Saroop, of course Guru Ji knew the mystery of Waheguru Ji. Lord Rama clearly didn't.

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Call me RSS if you like but I think this is an important fact that some in our community have forgotten and/or ignored, to their own detriment. Some have gone so far as attacking and maligning the reality and the character of Ram Chandra ji in order to further their agenda.

On the other side of the spectrum people like you want to place him next to Guru Sahiban when that was something just as detrimental. I know now you'll start to paste quotes from Adi Guru Darbar and try your usual convoluted method to try and make Lord Rama the same as Guru Ji and so on and so forth.

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1. I'll take you up on that but in this case, Maya ji as Divine Mother is mentioned in all existing Teekas.

 I would love to see your Teeka, Bhagat Singh, student of Bhagat Singh, member of Bhagat Singh Jatha founded on Sikhawareness. Maya mentioned in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is a reference only to the material, in that sense yes you're right but what you're doing is taking a take, slicing it, taking one piece and saying to everyone "look here its the whole cake". Adi Shakti is beyond that. Maya is restricted to the 3 gunas (Rajas, Tamas, Satav) as a power, that's all it can work with, while Adi Shakti is beyond even that. 

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-your post-

Maya mentioned in Adi Guru Darbar is different from Maya mentioned as material etc. Also if you're going to quote Gurbani have the common decency to get it right.  It's not "Mahakal hai pita apara"; it's ਸਰਬ ਕਾਲ ਹੈ ਪਿਤਾ ਅਪਾਰਾ ॥ and its not "Devi Kalika maat hamara" it's  ਦੇਬਿ ਕਾਲਿਕਾ ਮਾਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥

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The Mool Manter is a Manglacharan, which is a bowing to a set of principles or ideals which anyone from (almost) any philosophy can agree with.

It is important to Sikh philosophy but not the specific defining feature of the philosophy that is espoused in Guru Granth Sahib.

Funny because according to everyone else the Mool Mantar is the defining verse regarding Sikh Philosophy, So much so that many people say that Guru Granth Sahib Ji is an explanation of the Mool Mantar. 

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The philosophy of Guru Granth Sahib is summarized by -

 Ek Krishnam sarb deva dev deva ta atma, atma Vasudevasya je koi janai bhev, Nanak ta ka das hai, soi Niranjan Dev.

Again that's your opinion. You need to stop presenting your stuff as facts.

Quote

The Ardas also does not mention all the Saints who bani is recorded in Guru Granth Sahib, like Kabir ji, Nam Dev ji, Ravi Das ji etc and all the Saints who are revered in the bani like Prahlaad ji, Sudama ji, Valmiki ji etc.

Yes it does. When Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is mentioned, if their banis are within it then they are honoured too. 

 

I think all you're doing is nitpicking, looking for things to argue about and just trying to be argumentative. I'm not sure if its an ego thing or it's because you're bored but why does it annoy you that some Sikhs want to Honour Mata Ji?

 

 

I think the user @samurai2 is right, you seem to have a nasty habit of acting like you're a sarb gyani while everyone else knows nothing. 

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also mods take me off 'this content needs to be approved ' mode. its annoying.

Just want to say, for all those I've offended or made any hurtful comments to.. 

i would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologise for........

 

ABSOLUTELY NUTTINK...hahaha

as per Conor McGregor..lol

 

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1 hour ago, samurai2 said:

also mods take me off 'this content needs to be approved ' mode. its annoying.

Just want to say, for all those I've offended or made any hurtful comments to.. 

i would like to take this opportunity to sincerely apologise for........

 

ABSOLUTELY NUTTINK...hahaha

as per Conor McGregor..lol

 

I love ya bro. You are badass

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