paapiman Posted October 3, 2018 Report Share Posted October 3, 2018 Warning: Sexually explicit material below. Daas will kindly request sangat, below the age of 25 or people who are greatly affected by Lust, to stay away from this discussion. Please read the Charitar: Bhul chuk maaf 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 https://www.searchgurbani.com/public/dasam-granth/page/1683 ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਵਟਾ ਬਹੁ ਬਸੈ ਸਾਰਮੌਰ ਕੇ ਦੇਸ ॥ ਜਮੁਨਾ ਨਦੀ ਨਿਕਟਿ ਬਹੈ ਜਨੁਕ ਪੁਰੀ ਅਲਿਕੇਸ ॥੧॥ ਨਦੀ ਜਮੁਨ ਕੇ ਤੀਰ ਮੈ ਤੀਰਥ ਮੁਚਨ ਕਪਾਲ ॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਵਟਾ ਛੋਰਿ ਹਮ ਆਏ ਤਹਾ ਉਤਾਲ ॥੨॥ ਚੌਪਈ ॥ ਖਿਲਤ ਅਖੇਟਕ ਸੂਕਰ ਮਾਰੇ ॥ ਬਹੁਤੇ ਮ੍ਰਿਗ ਔਰੈ ਹਨਿ ਡਾਰੇ ॥ ਪੁਨਿ ਤਿਹ ਠਾਂ ਕੌ ਹਮ ਮਗੁ ਲੀਨੌ ॥ ਵਾ ਤੀਰਥ ਕੇ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀਨੌ ॥੩॥ ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਤਹਾ ਹਮਾਰੇ ਸਿਖ੍ਯ ਸਭ ਅਮਿਤ ਪਹੂੰਚੇ ਆਇ ॥ ਤਿਨੈ ਦੈਨ ਕੋ ਚਾਹਿਯੈ ਜੋਰਿ ਭਲੋ ਸਿਰਪਾਇ ॥੪॥ ਨਗਰ ਪਾਵਟੇ ਬੂਰਿਯੈ ਪਠਏ ਲੋਕ ਬੁਲਾਇ ॥ ਏਕ ਪਾਗ ਪਾਈ ਨਹੀ ਨਿਹਫਲ ਪਹੁਚੇ ਆਇ ॥੫॥ ਚੌਪਈ ॥ ਮੋਲਹਿ ਏਕ ਪਾਗ ਨਹਿ ਪਾਈ ॥ ਤਬ ਮਸਲਤਿ ਹਮ ਜਿਯਹਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਜਾਹਿ ਇਹਾ ਮੂਤਤਿ ਲਖਿ ਪਾਵੋ ॥ ਤਾ ਕੀ ਛੀਨ ਪਗਰਿਯਾ ਲ੍ਯਾਵੋ ॥੬॥ ਜਬ ਪਯਾਦਨ ਐਸੇ ਸੁਨਿ ਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਤਿਹੀ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਮਿਲਿ ਸਭਨ ਕਮਾਯੋ ॥ ਜੋ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਤੀਰਥ ਤਿਹ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਪਾਗ ਬਿਨਾ ਕਰਿ ਤਾਹਿ ਪਠਾਯੋ ॥੭॥ ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਤਿ ਬੀਚ ਕਰਿ ਆਠ ਸੈ ਪਗਰੀ ਲਈ ਉਤਾਰਿ ॥ ਆਨਿ ਤਿਨੈ ਹਮ ਦੀਹ ਮੈ ਧੋਵਨਿ ਦਈ ਸੁਧਾਰਿ ॥੮॥ ਚੌਪਈ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਾਤ ਲੇਤ ਸਭ ਧੋਇ ਮਗਾਈ ॥ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸਿਖ੍ਯਨ ਕੋ ਬੰਧਵਾਈ ॥ ਬਚੀ ਸੁ ਬੇਚਿ ਤੁਰਤ ਤਹ ਲਈ ॥ ਬਾਕੀ ਬਚੀ ਸਿਪਾਹਿਨ ਦਈ ॥੯॥ ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥ ਬਟਿ ਕੈ ਪਗਰੀ ਨਗਰ ਕੋ ਜਾਤ ਭਏ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਇ ॥ ਭੇਦ ਮੂਰਖਨ ਨ ਲਹਿਯੋ ਕਹਾ ਗਯੋ ਕਰਿ ਰਾਇ ॥੧੦॥ ਇਤਿ ਸ੍ਰੀ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਪਖ੍ਯਾਨੇ ਪੁਰਖ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰੇ ਮੰਤ੍ਰੀ ਭੂਪ ਸੰਬਾਦੇ ਇਕਹਤਰੌ ਚਰਿਤ੍ਰ ਸਮਾਪਤਮ ਸਤੁ ਸੁਭਮ ਸਤੁ ॥੭੧॥੧੨੫੮॥ਅਫਜੂੰ॥ @paapiman can you add Nara's interpretation as well bor. This seems to be told a little differently from the other stories. Not in the third person. Does it seem a little unusual ? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 17, 2018 Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 Apart from the Anup Kaur tales earlier on, this charitar is also said by anti-dasam nindaks to relate to Guru Gobind Singh himself. They often use it to proove the CP not being Bani as “why would the Guru order the Sikhs to steal turbans from people”. It will be interesting to study it further 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paapiman Posted October 17, 2018 Author Report Share Posted October 17, 2018 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 Firstly I would like to share these youtube videos about this charitar: 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 18, 2018 Report Share Posted October 18, 2018 Just a few observations I've made: 1. The story talks about going to a place of pilgrimage - Kapaal Mochan 2. Then there is a need to honour some people 3. for this pupose some cloth is needed but there is no provision. This seems a little unusual for a town not to have any cloth for sale 4. Turbans were taken from those who were "manmukhs". The text doesn't say that everyone had their turbans taken. Only those manmukhs who were urinating at that place. 5. 800 turbans were collected which tells us that there were a lot, a huge number of manmukhs visiting the tirath on that day. 6. It says that the fools were unable to comprehend what had gone on. They were slapped, had their turbans taken and were driven away. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
amardeep Posted October 19, 2018 Report Share Posted October 19, 2018 (edited) I see it as quite a political charitar 1) It talks about people behaving disgusting in a holy place 2) symbolically you can talk about a transfer of power - the Sikhs snatching the turbans from the Hindus could be regarded as a way of elevating the tisra panth over the Hindus. The Sikhs are the new people on the scene not to be reckoned with 3) in relation to the main story it can talk about how inappropriate things are happening even in places you would not expect such filthy behaviour. (Ie. A rani trying to seduce her step -son in the royal palace). The Hindus are humiliated as their turbans - symbols of honour - have Been taken away due to their own actions. Also peeing in water could be a representation of impurifying what is pure. The Hindus impuryfing their own religion means that the Sikhs are now in control. Edited October 19, 2018 by amardeep 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 22, 2018 Report Share Posted October 22, 2018 The katha by Gyani Mehtab Singh is very interesting. He does portray it as an actual event in Guru Sahib's life. When I heard this katha it came to my mind on how certain observances have to be held at certain places. The katha describes maryada at the tirath, but I felt as if the story was telling me that Royal households also have protocols that has to be observed. The Queen also disregards the protocols at the Palace, and so does the King. The Queen by her actions but the King by his reactions, in the same way that the people urinate at the places of pilgrimage. The removing of the turbans is humiliation/degradation, which is also what the Queen has done by her actions but again the King also, by his reactions. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted October 29, 2018 Report Share Posted October 29, 2018 On 10/22/2018 at 4:35 PM, chatanga1 said: The katha by Gyani Mehtab Singh is very interesting. He does portray it as an actual event in Guru Sahib's life. When I heard this katha it came to my mind on how certain observances have to be held at certain places. The katha describes maryada at the tirath, but I felt as if the story was telling me that Royal households also have protocols that has to be observed. The Queen also disregards the protocols at the Palace, and so does the King. The Queen by her actions but the King by his reactions, in the same way that the people urinate at the places of pilgrimage. The removing of the turbans is humiliation/degradation, which is also what the Queen has done by her actions but again the King also, by his reactions. Remember Kahn Singh Nabha reckons that some chariters were based on actual witnessed events. I think some of these may have been included in the chariters, this being one of them. Maybe it doesn't necessarily directly relate to the main framing story? If we are talking about the general principle of rajniti, maybe this tale alludes to keeping high standards in the kingdom and not having people urinating all over the place? Maybe this is about discouraging such practices? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 That the observation I made as well. Have you listened to Gyani Mehtab Singhs katha? He also seemed to speak of it as an event in Guru Sahib's life. Indar Singh Nara's translation also does as well above. Notice that Nara uses the word "be-asool: ie unprincipled in describing those who had their turbans removed? I'm not sure myself. I think that as with charitar 21-3 there may have been such an incident that needed the writing of Sri Charitropakhyan Granth but not necessarily as written. It would be interesting to see if any further such charitars come out like these. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted October 30, 2018 Report Share Posted October 30, 2018 3 hours ago, chatanga1 said: I'm not sure myself. I think that as with charitar 21-3 there may have been such an incident that needed the writing of Sri Charitropakhyan Granth but not necessarily as written. I don't get what you are saying here? I think we need to place CP in the context of Guru ji preparing SIkhs for war and eventual leadership. We know that Bahar Danesh was being read by the Moghul elites very probably including the emperor himself given the author's family's close connection to them. So far I think it was to familiarise SIkhs with the literature that Moghuls were cutting their teeth on. Increase the literary aspect of the community and plainly, the text does cover being impartial in leadership, but it also touches on social astuteness, and the nature of lust and how this drives people. I've already said how I believe one chariter (at least) seems to cover strategies for obtaining informants (and conversely what to watch out for when someone targets you in this way). And is it really surprising if during all this discussion and reflection tales that related to conspicuous acts of stupidity going on around the immediate vicinity were incorporated within? That would've had the effect of placing the work outside of the theoretical the academic/literary and place it squarely in real everyday life for the readers at the time. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chatanga1 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 On 10/30/2018 at 2:27 PM, dalsingh101 said: I don't get what you are saying here? I'm saying that maybe there was some incident that happened that led to this particular charitar being written as if it were an actual event. Not saying exactly as written but some kind of incident if some people think that it is autobiographical in nature. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalsingh101 Posted October 31, 2018 Report Share Posted October 31, 2018 38 minutes ago, chatanga1 said: I'm saying that maybe there was some incident that happened that led to this particular charitar being written as if it were an actual event. Not saying exactly as written but some kind of incident if some people think that it is autobiographical in nature. I think that is obvious. I think a few of them are like that. It's only fudhoos who project their own protestant-anglocentric-victorian brainwashing on CP that struggle with this idea. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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