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Sat1176

What is Self?

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You are none of the following:

Body

Senses

Mind

Intellect

Consciousness

Ego - I exist

 

Hmm if your not consciousness even in a pure state then what are you? For that to be discovered then you have to cease to exist. 

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Start with understanding yourself first, what makes you tick, your nature. Your emotions, fears, what makes you happy, sad etc. Then you can go above them. How can you relate to something which is infinite if you havent understood yourself. Maya doesnt mean everything around us is a 3D simulation, Maya is a notion of delusion or belief systems we have or have come to believe in which are not true. This whole relating quantum physics to maya doesnt end your day to day problems, understanding your self does. The Five so-called "Vices" in Sikhi is your own Emotions, not "Bad Deeds".

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8 hours ago, LiquidSky said:

Start with understanding yourself first, what makes you tick, your nature. Your emotions, fears, what makes you happy, sad etc. Then you can go above them. How can you relate to something which is infinite if you havent understood yourself. Maya doesnt mean everything around us is a 3D simulation, Maya is a notion of delusion or belief systems we have or have come to believe in which are not true. This whole relating quantum physics to maya doesnt end your day to day problems, understanding your self does. The Five so-called "Vices" in Sikhi is your own Emotions, not "Bad Deeds".

Start with understanding yourself first: 

True, your-self, is knowing you are the eternal soul, not the perishable body. Same in essence as the Creator Himself, just as a ray is related to the  Sun or a drop to the Ocean.

 

How can you relate to something which is infinite if you havent understood yourself:

Agree also, only as said above, when we realize we are atma, can we go for Parmatma.

 

The Five so-called "Vices" in Sikhi is your own Emotions, not "Bad Deeds":

Here I disagree, vices are not emotions nor moods. Emotions by themselves, do not induce you to do bad deeds, but on the contrary, anyone, absolutely anyone under the influence of these  vices or thieves,  unmistakenly commit bad deeds or karmas, which take our self farther away from the divinity.

On the contrary, virtues, make us do good karmas, which are essential to invoke His grace on us, and through that His apaar grace, we gradually  get nearer and nearer to Him, for now we are consciouss of ourselves, that in order o merge in that Infinte Ocean of goodness, we have to also become free from our mind and become mindless,  spotless, our real self  as He Himself is.

Stay blessed.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

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3 hours ago, harsharan000 said:

The Five so-called "Vices" in Sikhi is your own Emotions, not "Bad Deeds":

Here I disagree, vices are not emotions nor moods. Emotions by themselves, do not induce you to do bad deeds, but on the contrary, anyone, absolutely anyone under the influence of these  vices or thieves,  unmistakenly commit bad deeds or karmas, which take our self farther away from the divinity.

On the contrary, virtues, make us do good karmas, which are essential to invoke His grace on us, and through that His apaar grace, we gradually  get nearer and nearer to Him, for now we are consciouss of ourselves, that in order o merge in that Infinte Ocean of goodness, we have to also become free from our mind and become mindless,  spotless, our real self  as He Himself is.

Stay blessed.

Sat Sree Akal.

I believe they are emotions but emotions can control you. You need theses "Five vices". Kaam to create babies. Krodh to drive you to seek justice. Lobh to seek more knowledge. Moh to be attached to loved ones, dear I say even The Guru. Ahankar, having pride in yourself, someone who has no self worth doesn't feel motivated. 

Theses things can get out of control if left unchecked and yes do the opposite. 

 

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LiquidSky Jee,

the 5 vices are all responsible for keeping us prisoners in this mayavee creation, for they make us incurr in bad karma always.

They are subtle diseases, or invisble theives. They poison our minds, weaken our will power, and as said,  under their influence, only bad karmas happen.

You say krodh can drive us to seek justice,  but sorry to say, that is not justice, that is called revenge.

Justice is delivered by a judge, but have we ever seen a judge in anger?

Justice can only be administered with a cool and clear mind, while anger blinds our chit, then naturally, disasters are for sure to happen.

Kaam is not only sex for proreation, Kaam in reality means desire for self gratification, for which many fall or degrade themselves to animal /beast levels.

Ahankar, is being arrogant, and arrogant people are usually discriminative, and to maintain their ego or pride, again they need to do bad karam, whether verbally or through  action by abusing others.

Lobh always wants us have more than others, even snatch what belong to others, and a person under the effects of lobh can go to any extent of cheating.

Moh is attachment, and attachment to anything here, is holding on strongly to trash. Moh to properties brings yoou back as a ghost, moh to money will make you come back as snake an so on...the thing is, each of the 5 thieves, pulls us back into the perishable creation in the wheel of 84.

These thieves are so powerful that even gods, devis, devtays are not free from them, so what to say about us ordinary human beings.

One can surely exist without having to be under their negative influence, and the very image of  this real possibility, are our Guru Sahiban, the Bhagat Jan, and the Gurmukhs, who have a mindless nature, thus they are the masters of their will power; mind and the vikars just are helpless against them.

Just have a check at their lives when they blessed us with their presence whilst among us.

In them, fully shines the Light of Waheguru, so they are an example for all sikhs and all of the humanity, as per how to stay alert and clean in this world, as well in the subtle planes of consciousness.

Sharing the following piece of information regarding the topic in this thread which I found on the net:

The five evils, lust, wrath, greed, attachment and egoity, flourish on the soil of the belief in one's individualized existence.

By destroying the doctrine of one's own existence or the belief in one's individual reality, the sages (santsadh) cancel in one stroke, as it were, the entire catalogue of evils. Desire, anger, avarice, infatuation, egoism, passion, jealousy, hypocrisy, pride, deception, falsehood, violence, doubt, and nescience and other forms of depravity listed in the Guru Granth Sahib do not affect they who have overcome themselves and found their essence in God's reality. Liberation (mukti) means the extinction of all the evils headed by haumai.

The Sikh canon also points to the way of extinguishing evils of all kinds.

It is acknowledged that the five evils afflict all beings in sansar and that it is difficult to control them.

Yet the possibility of conquering them is not ruled out in the theological framework of Sikhism; the moral training of a Sikh is in fact directed towards controlling the senses and eradicating the evils.

The seeker of liberation has first to liberate themself of the yoke of the pentad, or the 5 vices.

No headway can be made towards God-realization without discarding the cardinal evils. Kabir says, "He alone cherishes the Lord's feet who is rid of desire, wrath, greed and attachment" – "kamu krodhu lobhu mohu bibarjit haripadu chinai soi" (GG, 1123).

Morover LiquidSky Jee, love for Guru Jee is not moh. 

Rather is a blessing by which one finds the gate of being liberated for ever and merging in that Supreme Truth, namely Waheguru.

One may ask, how to differentiate a vice from a virtue?

The vices as stated above, bind us here, while the virtues bring us closer to Waheguru, and among all virtues, bhakti or uncondtional love for Waheguru, is the only thing which frees us forever, and allows us to merge in Him. 

He, the One who is the embodiment of : Sach (Eternal Truth)- Chit(Omniscience or Supraconsciousness) - and Anand( peace and  true permanent Bliss);  and believe it, all this possible without mind, which is a barrier or hindrance in our spiritual advancement, with the 5 major vices and other sub-vices.

Love for Guru Jee, is the only means for staying strong and pure, and also for our union with Him.

That is why, the Bani can not be more clearer when it says:

Saach kahoon  sun lehoh sabhee Jin prem kiyo, tinhee Prabh paayo. 

This is the true efficient wisdom about what all spirituality is about, given to us by Guru Sahiban, that also, in just one  verse of a few words.

Stay blessed.

Sat Sree Akal.

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So where does motivation fit in if it doesn't have a emotional content? Is there any use of doing good karma? Where is the drive? What makes someone drive you for bhagati? Its still within ego, the act of bhagati is still an act coming from the self. 

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Very much interesting questions above LiquidSky Jee,

Motivation does not need necessarily to be emotional.

Emotions, reactions are in the mind, not in the soul. Good karmas are necessary for our spiritual progress by drawing grace from Him.

So good karmas are necessary that much to bring us closer to Him, they are like walking on a road with Light, where you know which direction to take towards your goal, on the contrary, if one incurrs in bad karmas, due to mtions or vices, one turna away one´s facefrom the light and  falls into the well of darkness. But then having the chance to walk and reach destination with Light, why turn our faces from it and fall into darkness due to ignorance of the mind and all that emerges from it?

Maybe there is a confusion  of what the mind is, which is limited and really not our real self. We are so much  related to the frame of our body  in which the mind works with all its vikars blindly , that we take it be our real self. The teachings in all rligious scriptures refer to our soul as our real self which is eternal, not the mind nor the body, which are perishable.

If we do not first realize our true self as soul,  clouded by the mind, how can we ever realize the universal Parmatma? There is no such tool, device  or technology created by the human mind, through which we can know our self nor the ultimate Self, Parmatma.

We do not acknowlege our mother or father, by our emotions, isn´t it?  But by direct perception and association with them.

in a similar way, Guru Sahiban tell us, He Waheguru is Light(Jot),  Light is not perceived by emotions again, nor there is any need for them,  and in order to perceive that Light, we have to just be receptive and open our eyes, only that much.

Bhakti/Love/Prem/Devotion is the need for the soul as an vehicle, to realize and reach  Waheguru, which is a transcendetal changeless and eternal  reality beyond any emotions, for as said, emotions exist in the mind, and we have to eliminate or cross the limits of the mind(braham) in order to reach our goal Waheguru (Parbraham).

Bhakti is to surrender oneself, or better said, become mindless.

Emtions and thoughts  arise from the mind and at most can take you only up to mental subtle spheres, but it is His Love as a blessing in the form of Bhakti which takes the atma or self to Parmatma, and that too, not remain as an individual there, but merge and become one with Him as He Himself, as Nam or Shabad, for in Sach Khand only Nirankar exists.

Stay blessed.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

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6 hours ago, Sat1176 said:

Liquidasky’s point about using the vices for gristi in small moderation is also mentioned in this katha from time index 31:30.

now this is what  I call good practical advice. 

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Nobody is free from vices for it is something in our minds which we have within ourselves,  and we can not get rid of them, as long as we are in the realms of mind and maya. These thieves usually rob us, without any notifications. 

And I myeself, I am a champion full of vices, so  I know how much one suffers under their  undesired effects.  My only intention by posting in this thread, is because as said I have been under their bad effects, so I do not want others to go through it, and by His grace, I have  understood  and  realized that, it is only by engaging in His bhakti, one can be on the safe side. It is not even by not wanting these vices, or in lesser amount, that one can rid oneself from them, for they are planted within our very minds, and the job of the mind is to keep us enslaved here in this mayavee creation

Moderation to control vices, is not like having a TV remote control, to lower to higher the volume.  For this is something from within.

Who knows when will be our last breath? And in His court  not even as little of a  penny can go with us of these vices if we have it, so what to say about having a hundred pound note of them. 

The question is not of having  little or much, for it is something out of our control as seen above.

The question is of having, or not having, for some drops of poison, if not the full bottle, yet it is poison, and it will surely be harmful.

On the other side if we sincerely do His bhakti, with His grace, one will overcome them, though unconscioussly, and being imbued with His virtues which means being alert and strong, or having His Light brighter and brighter within us, these demons will not even come near us.

Al that, once again is not by our efforts, but by His apaar kirpa, when we do His bhakti lovingly focused on Him, just as baby child to his/her mother, which keeps us safe from all dangers

That much only..

Stay blessed.

Sat Sree Akal.

 

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