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Sajjan_Thug

Any books on Vadda Ghallughara and Chhota Ghallughara?

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Can anyone recommend good books on these two events or any other material that might shed light on this part of history.

 

Vadda Ghallughara of 1762

The Vadda Ghallūghārā was a dramatic and bloody massacre during the campaign of Afganistan (Durrani Empire) provincial government based at Lahore to wipe out the Sikhs, an offensive that had begun with the Mughals and lasted several decades.

About 30,000 Sikhs, mostly non-combatants, were killed  in the event and an estimated that 15,000 to 20,000 Sikhs were killed on February 5, 1762.

Chhota Ghallughara of 1746

An estimated 7,000 Sikhs were killed and 3,000 captured during this operation. The captives were marched back to Lahore, paraded in the streets and publicly beheaded. Given the small numbers of the Sikhs in those days of persecution, the losses will have been a very substantial proportion of their population.

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Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakash  is your best best for a later Sikh perspective. Volume 2:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/149671030/Vol-2-SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangu-VOLUME-2-English-trans-by-Kulwant-Singh

 

The other work which is likely to reference the events from a contemporary Moghul perspective will probably be in Grewal and Habib's Sikh history from Persian sources:

http://www.discoversikhism.com/sikh_library/english/sikh_history_from_persian_sources.html

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10 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

Rattan Singh Bhangu's Panth Prakash  is your best best for a later Sikh perspective. Volume 2:

https://www.scribd.com/doc/149671030/Vol-2-SRI-GUR-PANTH-PRAKASH-by-Rattan-Singh-Bhangu-VOLUME-2-English-trans-by-Kulwant-Singh

 

The other work which is likely to reference the events from a contemporary Moghul perspective will probably be in Grewal and Habib's Sikh history from Persian sources:

http://www.discoversikhism.com/sikh_library/english/sikh_history_from_persian_sources.html

Waheguru Ji

I have read those books but I'm looking for something more comprehensive and based on contemporary and primary sources.  Do you think the taksal or any other sampradey has written comprehensively on these historical events.

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6 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Waheguru Ji

I have read those books but I'm looking for something more comprehensive and based on contemporary and primary sources.  Do you think the taksal or any other sampradey has written comprehensively on these historical events.

I don't know. From what I gather, these kinds of organisations aren't really focused on specific, critical histories like that. I think they would accept the traditional narrative within the panth by which I mean works like Suraj Prakash and Panth Prakash. This latter work gives the most detail about it as far as I know. 

 

I think those two sources I linked (between them) probably provide the most comprehensive accounts anyway? As far as I know, the only contemporary/primary accounts are in the Persian diaries included in that Grewal and Habib's work. Bhangu's work is a later Sikh memory of it, but Bhangu had top level access to memories of the event by prominent Sikhs and their descendents. 

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14 hours ago, dalsingh101 said:

I don't know. From what I gather, these kinds of organisations aren't really focused on specific, critical histories like that. I think they would accept the traditional narrative within the panth by which I mean works like Suraj Prakash and Panth Prakash. This latter work gives the most detail about it as far as I know. 

Waheguru Ji

What do you mean they don't focus on specific critical history, these sampredeys are suppose to be centers of learning, isn't that what their suppose to do?  

The writers of Panth Prakash and Suraj Prakash had to do research in order to write there texts so why wouldn't this research not continue?

Panthe Prakash is good but I want to know if Sampredey Gyanies are aware of all the texts from that time period there has been alot of research and text translated from that time period im sure the Samprefey Gyanies are doing some of that work and can write a comprehensive work based on all the sources we have and can collaborate what's written in Panth Prakash.

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15 hours ago, Sajjan_Thug said:

Waheguru Ji

What do you mean they don't focus on specific critical history, these sampredeys are suppose to be centers of learning, isn't that what their suppose to do?  

They are centres of learning but their style is very different to what we might call modern historiography. This was pioneered amongst apnay by people like Karam Singh Historian and later Dr. Ganda Singh. This essentially introduced western styles of historiography of the time (with its advantages and disadvantages). I think the sampardaya's primary focus is on aatmic giani as opposed to critical history. And they (understandably) use traditional accounts, including oral accounts that were penned down later. If we went by the western model entirely, we'd have umpteen shucks on accounts that have been passed down to us. 

Quote

The writers of Panth Prakash and Suraj Prakash had to do research in order to write there texts so why wouldn't this research not continue?

They did do a lot of research including travelling and recording oral accounts that they had encountered. Lots of things can affect the ability to continue this, especially political upheavals (like wars, partition, the formation of India for example). Influences of outside cultures or political structures etc. Economic upheavals. The agendas of apnay in power and how this impacts on what gets studied and what not, as well how it gets studied and by whom, and how things are subsequently presented - and these are all things that have effected the panth quite heavily in the last few centuries from what I see. 

Suraj Prakash gives a great example of change. Even though it was written during the colonial period notice how it retained the traditional precolonial Sikh style of imparting knowledge in that it used poetry and Brij Bhasha. That's why it's unique in this respect. I think those writers committed oral traditions to paper that would have been subsequently lost because of the death of the older generations who had heard about or even witnessed events. 

Panth Prakash is epic because (whether people recognise it or not) a disproportionately large dose of our understanding of the past struggles of Sikhs comes from this work. Much of the stuff within isn't anywhere else. For example if you look at the influential artwork of Kirpal Singh - a large part of it is clearly inspired by Bhangu's epic. 

 

Quote

Panthe Prakash is good but I want to know if Sampredey Gyanies are aware of all the texts from that time period there has been alot of research and text translated from that time period im sure the Samprefey Gyanies are doing some of that work and can write a comprehensive work based on all the sources we have and can collaborate what's written in Panth Prakash.

 

I'd love that. But there are obstacles now, like knowledge of Farsi. Even the language in earlier texts from Sikh sources like the Gurbilas literature isn't easy for people to comprehend. Plus we have that whole problem of having to verify things that aren't mentioned elsewhere.

I've been thinking about our people using our own sources to collate all information on specific topics and putting them in single publications for a while now. For example, I'd like to know a lot more about dasmesh pita's hazoori mamma ji, Kripal Singh. I'd love for all mentions of him in early sources to be put together (and translated) to see what picture this paints. These are the types of projects we need to start doing in time, but it isn't easy because of language (in my opinion) although the problem of access to formerly difficult to find sources is being remedied through Internet access.   But even this isn't a simple thing because as we've learnt about Panth Prakash, the versions we've received today have been edited (sometimes quite heavily) too. So we have to factor this in. 

Overall though, the truth seems to be that what you are asking for is something only a small, intellectual minority in the panth is truly interested in. Most apnay seem happy to just accept whatever their preferred kaathakar will tell them. Plus applying the critical method can cause serious resentment and trouble for people, because some people take any questioning of long accepted traditional narratives as tantamount to being a faithless cynic. 

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@Sajjan_Thug

 

Here's a brief something I wrote years and years ago when I compared some extracts from Bhangu's work with contemporary Moghul accounts. Is this the type of analysis you mean?

 

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On 7/3/2019 at 7:36 AM, dalsingh101 said:

I'd love that. But there are obstacles now, like knowledge of Farsi. Even the language in earlier texts from Sikh sources like the Gurbilas literature isn't easy for people to comprehend. Plus we have that whole problem of having to verify things that aren't mentioned elsewhere.

personaly I don't see the old languages as a problem I believe our Gyanis do have the knowledge but there not innovative, thats my issue.  With the Gurbiles what the Sampradeyes should do is create a dictionary of all the words and this should be a project of the students.  Plus if they don't know some words there are experts in universities that study these languages.   Once they complete the dictionary they will have the whole knowledge.

I've been thinking about our people using our own sources to collate all information on specific topics and putting them in single publications for a while now. For example, I'd like to know a lot more about dasmesh pita's hazoori mamma ji, Kripal Singh. I'd love for all mentions of him in early sources to be put together (and translated) to see what picture this paints. These are the types of projects we need to start doing in time, but it isn't easy because of language (in my opinion) although the problem of access to formerly difficult to find sources is being remedied through Internet access.   But even this isn't a simple thing because as we've learnt about Panth Prakash, the versions we've received today have been edited (sometimes quite heavily) too. So we have to factor this in. 

Overall though, the truth seems to be that what you are asking for is something only a small, intellectual minority in the panth is truly interested in. Most apnay seem happy to just accept whatever their preferred kaathakar will tell them. Plus applying the critical method can cause serious resentment and trouble for people, because some people take any questioning of long accepted traditional narratives as tantamount to being a faithless cynic. 

yes, I would like to see those kinds of books too.  The Sampradeys need to research and write on these kinds of subjects.  At least have their students do these kinds of work.   They don't have the drive and If someone else does it they don't look upon them as authentic.  

 

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On 7/8/2019 at 11:32 AM, Sajjan_Thug said:

personaly I don't see the old languages as a problem I believe our Gyanis do have the knowledge but there not innovative, thats my issue.  With the Gurbiles what the Sampradeyes should do is create a dictionary of all the words and this should be a project of the students.  Plus if they don't know some words there are experts in universities that study these languages.   Once they complete the dictionary they will have the whole knowledge.

@Sajjan_Thug

You know, just by chance I came across this this manuscript (but undated) copy of Giani Gian Singh's Twarikh Guru Khalsa on PDL where it lists his sources. Thought I'd post it for interest:

giani_gian_singh_sources.thumb.png.49b9d96abde63746309b1aa962c71ba2.png

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