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Sri Chand in 'Mahan Kosh'

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In his ‘Mahan Kosh’, ‘Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha’ wrote that Sri Chand started the Udasi sect and Baba Gurditta ji was his disciple. (See ‘Mahaan Kosh’, page 251/word ‘Sri Chand Baba’ and page 416/ word ‘Gurditta Baba’).

But the same writer says that Sri Chand died in Sanvat 1669, and Baba Gurditta ji was born in Sanvat 1670. (See ‘Mahaan Kosh’ by Kahan Singh Nabha, page 251/word ‘Sri Chand Baba’ and page 416/ word ‘Gurditta Baba’). :( How could Baba Gurditta ji become Sri Chand’s disciple, when he was born after the death of Sri Chand?

I want everyone on this forum to make comments about this.

-Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit'

www.amritweb.com

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Guest Javanmard

either a misprint or a mistake on part of Kahn SIngh Nabha. Although overall excellent he has sometimes his inconsistencies. In MahanKosh he says Uggardanti is not bani but quotes it as bani in Ham Hindu Nahin....(quoting again out of my weak memory, if I make a mistake please correct me as I don't have my books at hand when I writing to you guys :oops: )

These SIngh Sabha scholars sometimes went off really strange ways...

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Dear Amrit,

Jo bole, ohi kunda khole.

You yourself have to do research if Sri Chand died before the birth of Baba Gurdita, and tell us what will you find out.

Paramjit Singh Mintu.

Well, I am a big Zero in the knowledge of History/Scripturz...

Herez a related link

http://www.sikhs.org/gurdwaras/fam1.htm

The ascetic son of Guru Nanak and the founder of the Udasi order Baba Sri Chand lived here deep in the forest for the last part of his life. Baba Sri Chand was visited here by Guru Arjan Dev who told Baba Sri Chand about the hostility of his elder brother towards him. Baba Sri Chand replied: "This will be his undoing and ruin both in this world and the next. Guru Hargobind also visited Baba Sri Chand here and when Baba Sri Chand complimented the Guru on his chivalry and piety, Guru Hargobind replied with great humility, "It is all the result of your blessing". Guru Hargobind also gave his son Baba Gurditta to Baba Sri Chand as the next leader of the Udasi order. Baba Sri Chand died and was cremated here in 1612 at the ripe old age of 118.

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Guest Javanmard

Giani Gian Singh says Baba Shri Chand died whilst Baba Gurditta was alive and gave him the authority over the Udasi sampradaya. (this I have checked! :wink: )

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Guest BikramjitSingh

either a misprint or a mistake on part of Kahn SIngh Nabha. Although overall excellent he has sometimes his inconsistencies. In MahanKosh he says Uggardanti is not bani but quotes it as bani in Ham Hindu Nahin....

These SIngh Sabha scholars sometimes went off really strange ways...

Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Lallesvari you are quite mistaken. Maybe you don't think that you need to check the facts before trying to cast aspersions on the knowledge of one of the greatest scholars of Sikhism. Yes, each scholar is liable to suffer the mistakes or misprints of the publishers but one thing you cannot accuse Bhai Sahib is of inconsistancy. It is actually an error on your part yet you use your imperfect knowledge to doubt Bhai Sahib's scholarship.

On page 40 of Hum Hindu Nahin, Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha in answer to the Hindu who quotes the Ogardanti to try and prove Sikhs are Hindus clearly states-;

These verses are not the verses of Guru Gobind Singh they were written by the Bhai Sukha Singh of Patna who was a worshipper of Durga.

Bhai Sahib then cites your favourite Nirmala scholar Tara Singh Narotam and his conclusion in his Gurmat Nirnay Sagar that the ogardanti cannot be the Bani of Guru Gobind Singh

Do you have a copy of Hum Hindu Nahin at hand. If you have you would see that Bhai sahib has for the benefit of persons like yourself who are liable to confusion clearly used the word Hindu at the start of each line where the Hindu asks his questions and used the word Sikh where Bhai Sahib disproves the Hindu's argument.

I suppose you don't have the book at hand and as usual you are able to make comments on and draw conclusions on texts without the need to check what is actually written in them.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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lalleshvari is one of the most learned people i've been blessed to chat with.....i mean lalleshvari is reading and filling up with more gyaan all the time....but.....i suppose everyone is allowed there opinion :LOL:

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Guest BikramjitSingh

lalleshvari is one of the most learned people i've been blessed to chat with.....i mean lalleshvari is reading and filling up with more gyaan all the time....but.....i suppose everyone is allowed there opinion :LOL:

It is good that you are getting knowledge but always check what the person says with the teachings of Gurbani and double check any references that anyone gives. In the end it is Gurbani and not the views of either myself, lallesvari or anyone else on the forum that matters.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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Guest Javanmard

The sources anterior to Kahn SIngh Nabha such as Giani GIan SIngh's Panth Prakash clearly state that Baba Shri Chand was still alive and gave the gadi of the Udasi sampradaya to Baba Gurditta. :D

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Guest

It is good to be silent, when you want to avoid any controversy. :roll: .When I post any message, I do always keep it in my mind that many people who do not know much about the Sikhism and the Sikh history would read it. I try to avoid any controversy, though sometimes it cannot be possible.

I am not double minded on the topic, but I think that a few people want to gain knowledge; others just criticize. :( .(That is why I did not publish my article about Sri Chand and Udasi sect. :cry: .Perhaps, one day I will make mind to publish what I wrote).

BUT, I should say something about the topic, because it was me, who started this thread. :) .The early books on Guru-history do not say that Baba Gurditta Ji was the disciple of Sri Chand. For example we can read ‘Bansavalinaama’. This book makes it clear that Sri Chand died before the birth of Baba Gurditta Ji.

Do we know about Bhai Gurdas Ji? His hymns can be sung in the 'keertan'. Let us see what he wrote about Sri Chand: -

"Putree{n} kaul na paleyo, mann aakee, khotey nasiyaaraa" (stanza 38, Vaar first).

(Word-meanings: - 1. Putree{n} = sons, Sri Chand and Lakhmi Chand. 2. kaul = order (of Guru Nanak Dev). 3. na = not. 4. paleyo = obeyed. 5. mann = minds (of Sri Chand and Lakhmi Chand). 6. aakkee = disobedient/rebel. 7. khotey = impure. 8. nasiyaaraa = who ran away).

"The sons (of Guru Nanak Dev Ji) did not obey his order. (They were) disobedient by their minds, (they were) impure, who ran away (during the examination)".

More? See the stanza 33, Vaar 26 by Bhai Gurdas Ji. In that stanza Bhai Gurdas ji added the name of Sri Chand, in the list of Guru-sons, who did not obey their fathers' words.

Bhai Gurdas Ji was contemporary of the fifth and the sixth Gurus. He did not mention that Baba Gurditta Ji was the first disciple of Sri Chand.

I have nothing to say about Sri Chand’s Guru, but I must say that Baba Gurditta Ji’s Guru was Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib, Gur Govind Khudaaye roop, Guru Kalgidhar, the sixth King. Ask Noorjahan, the wife of Moghul emperor Jahangir, and she will tell how handsome my Guru Hargobind was! Ask Paindey Khan, and he will tell that even sword of Guru Hargobind was like a holy hymn. Ask me, and I will start to sing, “Sadkey sadkey terey naina dey, merey sohaneya, mere laarheya. Merey Satgura, merey Paatshaah, sajjana vey Kalgi waleya” (May I be sacrificed to your eyes, O my handsome! O my bridegroom! O my Satguru! O my King! O my friend with a plume!). (An extract from one of my poem). :pray: .

While living near the holy feet of Guru Hargobind Sahib, no one needs Sri Chand.

-Amrit Pal Singh 'Amrit'

www.amritweb.com

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Guest BikramjitSingh

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa

Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

Amrit Pal Singh

You are quite right. Unfortunately there seems to be a concerted attempt to portray the Udasis as Sikhs and to show Baba Sri Chand to have had a hand in the complilation of Gurbani. The fact is that Guru Arjan did not include any of Baba Sri Chand's writings into the Guru Granth Sahib. The reason give is so laughable. That Baba Sri Chand was 'humble', so does this mean that the Gurus whose writings are in the Guru Granth Sahib were not 'humble' ?. Some people, especially Lallesvari has an agenda to spread misinformation. When he gets caught out then he tries to wriggle out of it by blaming his memory. Lallesvari seems to think that Giani Gian Singh is an authority on Sikhism. All he has is tit bits of information on Sikhi, Hinduism and languages. These he used to show himself to be some kind of scholar of Sikhism.

I seem to remember that as Bahadur Singh on Sikhe.com he had the nerve to refer to actions of the Akalis who liberated the Gurdwaras as 'illegal'. Shows the state of Sikhi today when a Gora goes to India speaks to a few Udasis who taking him to be naive have a laugh at his expense and tell him all sorts of stories and suddenly be becomes an authority on Sikhism. He then has the nerve to try to and malign Bhai Kahan Singh Nabha by accusing him of writing things which he did not write. Very sad indeed.

Lallesvari

I hope you rely on more that your memory when trying to gain your PhD at SOAS.

GurFateh

Bikramjit

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Guest Javanmard

Gurfateh

1. The points raised by Amritpal Singh quoting Bhai Gurdas are correct. Indeed Bhai Gurdas mentions Baba Shri Chand as disobeing his father by building a monument:

BAla jAtI sirIcandu bAnAnA dehurA banAiA

Baba Shri Chand's disagreement with his father is not an issue here as he later on atoned for it.

2. Piara SIngh Padam in one his last works Sikh Sampradavali says that Baba Shri Chand's asceticism was conditioned because of child psychology: as a child he used to see his father doing meditation and of course imitated his father. One could apply the same reason to Baba Lakhmi Chand who concentrated too much on the worldly side of things because that's how he experienced his father.

Baba Shri Chand and Lakhmi Chand individually represented the two main aspects of Guru Nanak, the grahisti yogi, the ideal represented by Raja Janaka. The problem is that none of them was fit for Guruship as the Guru has to represent these two attributes simultaneously. It is therefore only normal that it was Guru Angad who inherited the Guruship.

3. Who was Bab Shri Chand's Guru?

If you look at early Udasi sources such as the mAtrAn it is quite clear that Baba Shri Chand's Guru was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Neverthless certain corrupt sections of the Udasis pretend that Baba Shri Chand's Guru was an ascetic called Avinashi Muni.(Mahant Anantanand of Sangalvala Akhara in Amritsar is the main propagandist of that idea and it would not be surprising if links between him and the RSS were found.The problem is that when confronted with the truth about Guru Nanak he plays his arrogant main brahmgiani han games :evil: ) This story only appears at the end of the 19th century when certain corrupt Udasi mahants used this story to protect their property. The fact remains though that this story has no basis. Sant Rain's Guru Nanak Vijaya Granth is very clear on the fact that it was Guru Nanak who was Baba Shri Chand's Guru. On top of that the mAtrAn composed by Baba Gurditta clearly say that:

a. Guru Nanak was the master of Baba Shri Chand

NAnak celA sarI canda bAlA

b. Baba Shri Chand was the gurdev of Baba Gurditta

4. One has to be very clear about the uses of the words gurdev and Guru.

In the context of the SIkh sampradayas (Udasi, Sevapanthi, Nirmale and Nihang).

The word Guru is reserved for the 10 Gurus and the Guru Granth/Panth.

The word gurdev is used for the teacher who teaches you vidya. For Nirmalas, Sevapanthi and Nihangs the difference is quite clear whereas for certain sections of the Udasis the difference is sometimes blured. These sections have started curious traditions since the end of teh 19th century. Thsi does not mean that all Udasis are corrupt. Far from it! Let's just say that the Udasis are separated nowadays in two sections: those who stick to the 10 Gurus and those who think of Baba Shri Chand as totally independent from Guru Nanak. The last group has invented those lies in the middle-end of the 19th century. They have no historical foundations.In fact Bhai Santokh SIngh wrote his Garab Ganjani Tika to reply to Ananadghan's story about Guru Nanak having gurus etc..

5. Not all Udasi groyups go back to Baba Shri Chand. Many sub-groups called bakhshish were founded by Guru Har Rai and Guru Tegh Bahadur.

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Gurfateh

 

1. The points raised by Amritpal Singh quoting Bhai Gurdas are correct. Indeed Bhai Gurdas mentions Baba Shri Chand as disobeing his father by building a monument:

BAla jAtI sirIcandu bAnAnA dehurA banAiA

 

Baba Shri Chand's disagreement with his father is not an issue here as he later on atoned for it.

2. Piara SIngh Padam in one his last works Sikh Sampradavali says that Baba Shri Chand's asceticism was conditioned because of child psychology: as a child he used to see his father doing meditation and of course imitated his father. One could apply the same reason to Baba Lakhmi Chand who concentrated too much on the worldly side of things because that's how he experienced his father.

Baba Shri Chand and Lakhmi Chand individually represented the two main aspects of Guru Nanak, the grahisti yogi, the ideal represented by Raja Janaka. The problem is that none of them was fit for Guruship as the Guru has to represent these two attributes simultaneously. It is therefore only normal that it was Guru Angad who inherited the Guruship.

3. Who was Bab Shri Chand's Guru?

If you look at early Udasi sources such as the mAtrAn it is quite clear that Baba Shri Chand's Guru was Guru Nanak Dev Ji. Neverthless certain corrupt sections of the Udasis pretend that Baba Shri Chand's Guru was an ascetic called Avinashi Muni.(Mahant Anantanand of Sangalvala Akhara in Amritsar is the main propagandist of that idea and it would not be surprising if links between him and the RSS were found.The problem is that when confronted with the truth about Guru Nanak he plays his arrogant main brahmgiani han games :evil: ) This story only appears at the end of the 19th century when certain corrupt Udasi mahants used this story to protect their property. The fact remains though that this story has no basis. Sant Rain's Guru Nanak Vijaya Granth is very clear on the fact that it was Guru Nanak who was Baba Shri Chand's Guru. On top of that the mAtrAn composed by Baba Gurditta clearly say that:

a. Guru Nanak was the master of Baba Shri Chand

NAnak celA sarI canda bAlA

b. Baba Shri Chand was the gurdev of Baba Gurditta

4. One has to be very clear about the uses of the words gurdev and Guru.

In the context of the SIkh sampradayas (Udasi, Sevapanthi, Nirmale and Nihang).

The word Guru is reserved for the 10 Gurus and the Guru Granth/Panth.

The word gurdev is used for the teacher who teaches you vidya. For Nirmalas, Sevapanthi and Nihangs the difference is quite clear whereas for certain sections of the Udasis the difference is sometimes blured. These sections have started curious traditions since the end of teh 19th century. Thsi does not mean that all Udasis are corrupt. Far from it! Let's just say that the Udasis are separated nowadays in two sections: those who stick to the 10 Gurus and those who think of Baba Shri Chand as totally independent from Guru Nanak. The last group has invented those lies in the middle-end of the 19th century. They have no historical foundations.In fact Bhai Santokh SIngh wrote his Garab Ganjani Tika to reply to Ananadghan's story about Guru Nanak having gurus etc..

5. Not all Udasi groyups go back to Baba Shri Chand. Many sub-groups called bakhshish were founded by Guru Har Rai and Guru Tegh Bahadur.

 

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