Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Wahgurujikakhalsawahgurujikifateh!!! In the times of Akaali Guru Har Rai Ji when his own son Ram Rae changed one word of gurbani to placate the emperor Aurangzeb.... Akaali Guru Har Rai Ji disowned his son...And even now in amrit sanchars we are warned not to mix with or have family relations with followers of Ram Rae...... However the modern followers of Ram Rae are not to be seen anywhere. But if you think about it the modern Ram Raes are those people who try to flout raag mala and disown the baani of dasam and sarbloh granth.. They are the modern Ram Rae people who try to criticise and cut down their own Guru! Ram Rae only changed one word but these people have changed a whole page of Guru Granth Sahib Ji Aaad Guru Darbaar but also disowned the Dasan Guru Darbaar and Sarbloh Guru Darbar!!! Should we not adapt to the modern dilemnas wround us and bewarned of these modern Raam Raes? Or should we keep warning people about a sect that doesnt even exist? MAKE YOUR CHOICE :? Siri Akaal Ji Sahai! :wink: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 ram rai purposefully twisted gurbani selfishly for his own personal gain. those who do not believe in rag malla, dasam granth or sarbloh granth do it because they honestly believe it is not gurbani, for whatever reason, they do not do it to gain power, or openly proclaim it is not gurbani when internally they know it is. in the early 1900s a huge amount of the panth rejected even ragmalla and dasam granth, does that mean we reject them and all their kiddies as outcasts from the panth? its likely that down the line one of your relatives had a scriptural belief that didnt match yours. even now there is alot of controversy over some areas of the dasam granth. whilst most people agree nearly all is gurbani, why does hakayaat in the original 1696 bir not have any signatures of the guru on it? why is zafarnama often attributed to bhai nand lal? im not saying i agree with either of the above, but such issues are not as clear cut as they seem. alot of sau sakhi has DEFINATELY been changed over the years, are we blasphemious if we do not wholeheartedly believe every line of it (and if you read the sau sakhi you will realise many of hte predictions havent actually come true when they should of)? the real meaning of not associating with descendants of ram rai is to not associate with people who twist gurbani to suit their own selfish motives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Gur Fateh! GarGaj Singh does have a point here insofar as following the principles laid out by Guru Sahib with respect to the Ram Rae, Dhirmalias and Mahants. Those who change, alter or deny Bani or any component thereof or those who abuse the positions of power trusted to them must be view in the same light. NOTE: I am not intending to discredit any Jathabandi here, however the issue of Raagmala (which as Khalsa Soulja indicates is not just limited to one particular group), the denial of Bani in the Dasam Granth in the manner put forth by Kala Afghana and IOSS, the sheer abuse and misappropriation of polity and power are matters that are unnecessarily weaken the Panth. <<those who do not believe in rag malla, dasam granth or sarbloh granth do it because they honestly believe it is not gurbani, for whatever reason, they do not do it to gain power, or openly proclaim it is not gurbani when internally they know it is>> Khalsa Ji, I hear what your trying to say, however let's be honest, the denial of Raag Mala for instance, is a tool by which to differentiate oneself from the Sikhs of the Guru, for better or worse, dependent upon your stance on the matter. Now, agreed some deny the Raag Mala since it is the way they are taught given their affiliation with certain Sangat, however it cannot be denied that the likes of Babu Teja Singh Bhasauria did in fact deny and delete Raag Mala (and Bhagat Bani et al) for nothing more than the acquisition of power. There have been many like him of late who have sought to modify the Sri Guru for their personal selfish gains -in MOST instances, these individuals and groups have been ousted from the Panth. This is something we need to remain vigilant about given the sanctity of Guru Maharaj and also the resultant divisions such matters have on the Panth, which I may add is already in weakened state given the numerous Jathas, Babas, Akharas et al we find challenging and fighting amongst each other…the way of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh was always to seek common ground and build upon that; “Manas Ki Jaat sabey eko pachaan bo†–Gurdev Pita, Guru Gobind Singh (Dasam Granth) Unfortunately today we are too content to argue about non-issues and the superiority of one Baba, Committee, Jatha or Politician over the next, that the following words of the Sri Guru come to mind:- houmai maeraa jaath hai ath krodhh abhimaan || Ego, self-centeredness, excessive anger and pride are the lot of mankind. Guru Amar Daas Ji Raag Aasaa 429 This is truly a shame when we consider Maharaj also teaches us that:- sabhanaa dhaathaa eaek thoo maanas dhaath n hoe || You alone are the Great Giver; mankind cannot give anything. Guru Nanak Dev Ji Raag Sorath 595 Not to believe in Gurbani and to regard oneself as a Sikh is a misnomer. <> Agreed, large amounts of the Panth ‘DID’ reject Raag Mala and the Dasam Granth… ‘DID’ being the operative word. As per the ‘kiddies’ of the Ram Rae and Mahants et al, to my knowledge, we are instructed as per the Rahit Maryada to refrain from social intercourse et al with the aforementioned groups until such time as they accept Gurmat Maryada and Khanda-da-Paul Amrit and certainly the 5 Pyare during my Amrit Sanchar informed as such. The Sau Sakhi is another issue, we are concerned here with Guru Maharaj and parties hostile to ‘our’ Guru Ji cannot be considered as comrades let alone part of the Panth. I ask forgiveness for any foolish comments made on my part… GUR BAR AKAAAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Lets see wot our Guru has to say about baani.......:wink: "The Word of the True Guru`s Bani is the embodiment of Truth; through Gurbani, one becomes perfect." - Ang 304 "Gurbani is the jewel, the treasure of devotion." - Ang 376 "Those whose minds are pleased with the Word of the Guru`s Bani, drink in the Ambrosial Nectar again and again." Ang 449 "I have the Support of the Word of the Guru`s Bani. Attached to Gurbani, I survive." - Ang 759 "Those who have the Naam within, contemplate the Word of the Guru`s Bani. " - Ang 1422 VAHO VAHO BAANI NIRANKAAR HAI!!! BAANI GURU GURU HAI BAANI!!! EH BAANI MAHAPURAKH KEE!!! Being sikhs of this great Guru how can we say we even have the slightest of doubt about anything written in Aaad Guru Darbar, Dasam Guru Darbaar, or Sarbloh Guru Darbaar..... "SATGUR AAGAI SEES BHET DEYOO" we doubt the Guru who we are meant to have given our heads to....... we are sikhs not Gurus how can we dictate what should be in the our Guru and what should not be there THE GURU GRANTH SAHIB IS NOT JUST A BOOK.....GURU JI IS OUR GURU :!: AKAAAAAL HEEE AKAAAAAAAAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 However the modern followers of Ram Rae are not to be seen anywhere. I think you will find that Ram Rai'yas still exist in large numbers in Dehradun where they have their main temple. They also have a few temples in Delhi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 11, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 Thanx bhen....I was just tryin to stress the point that we shouldnt realise that there are other "people" within sikhi who denounce the Baani of our Gurus...not jus the followers of Ram Rae "AMRIT BAANI HAR HAR TERI" AKAAAAAAAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 11, 2003 Report Share Posted October 11, 2003 yes there will always be ****heads like kala afgana who twist gurbani because they are malicious, but the fact is i have never really seen any TRULY clear cut evidence either to prove it is, or isnt gurbani. the strongest thing one side can come up with is that it is in the kartarpuri bir (yet it can be argued the other way that the kartarpuri bir has scribblings, gaps, and incorrect authorings of mahallas which are corrected in the damdama bir) and the other side can say that the ragmalla doesnt really have any significance with regards to relating to every single raag (yet that can be countered by saying they all add up to 84 which is a special number in sikhi).........so its not as clear cut as it was in gurus times..... i really havent heard anyone ever say "TAKSAL ARE THE BEST" or "AKJ RULE". people just argue over parts of the rehat. and i think thats good.....we arent blindly accepting what the SGPC have formulated, we are ensuring that what we have is exactly what we had in gurus times.....and in a way thats good i guess most hte founders of the singh sabha movement didnt believe ragmalla or dasam granth......so its all well and good to say bani is most important (which it is) and those who corrupt it are evil manmukhs.....but without the singh sabha movement where wud we be now? in a mandir ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 12, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 No one as yet even mentioned the Singh Sabha Movement and no one has called anyone manmukhs.......who are we to judge? "HUM NAHEE CHANGAI BURAA NAHEE KOE, PRANVAT NANAK TAARE SOE" I started this debate jus to get the views of people on how we should be adapting to modern surroudings......i.e modern Ram Raes Its good that no one has named any particular jatha and i think that naming kala afghana was not really needed...this was jus a general debate about the general change in the panth and in looking for a way to live the future as gursikhs together under the Nishaan of of Gursikhi at the end of the day remember.... "EK PITTA EKAS KE HUM BARRAK, TOO MERA GUR HAEE" I'm not out to denounce any particular jatha or any gursikh brother or sister......This debate was just to help the panth realised the modern difficulties we are facing SIRI AKAAL JI SAHAI Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Dear Khalsa Soulja disbelieving bani of Dasam Guru Granth and Sarabloh Granth Sahib and being "honest" at the same time is a contradiction. The soul knows intimately what is right and wrong. Whosoever takes those positions CAN NOT BE A HONEST SIKH: SGPC has changed bani of Chaupai Sahib by shortening it, AKJ questions RAGMALA. They are Ram Raie and are therefore to be considered as ennemies of the Panth at the same level as RSS, BJP and Congress Party. They are part of the panj mel so any Gursikh of Guru Gobind SIngh should have no dealings with them!!! badshah darvesh Guru Gobind SIngh!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jassa Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 lol ummmm no mate!! if you go to an akj amrit sanchaar they DO NOT say to you you cannot read raagmala.... agreed their are members of AKJ sangat who do not believe it...but there are those that do believe it equally... so unless all akj members were making a big hoo haa about it like you i dont think you could say that, and even if they did i would still think you were wrong... AKJ arnt there to be panthic dushts or anything like that.... they dont claim any false bani or twist bani.....they dont believe in something....and although i dont believe it its not as if their views on the subject are completely bogus and they have some good points... Akj dont care for politics...they are a kirtani jatha and nothing more, not a political group, nt a business but just a kirtani jatha... and khalsa soulja is right....people like me and him(i dont know if im able to speak fir you so sorryif i go agianst your beliefs KS) havnt seen an amazing belief chandging proof on either side...so how can you blame them...once again im sorry KS if i used ur example wrongly, dats wat i thort ur views were... vahiguroo ji ka khalsa vahiguroo ji ki fateh!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 jassa yeh i agree man u no wot im sayin ...... bt nihung whatever ur name is, what i meant was, if we discount all those who have slightly different beliefs as us, then we also discount most of the founders of the singh sabha movement.....now considering that some of us are related to them possibly (we are probably all related to someone who didnt believe in ragmalla or whatever) does that mean that we are all kicked out the panth? or that all the singh sabha people were not sikhs? there are also loads of birs with extra bani in it as is mentioned on the other thread......should we blindly put our faith in that or should we analyse it carefully? to say "the soul knows the truth" is just silly.......personally i have gone from believing in dasam granth.....to not believing.......to believing in some......to believing in all......then finally to believing in all but hakayat........my "soul" must hav bin kinda confused :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Lalleshwari you're generalising. I agree with Jassa Ji, not all AKJ-ers are anti-Ragmala. I think they do a lot for Sikhi and have tried their best to keep brahminism from influencing Sikhi, especially in the UK. Gurfateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 Gur Fateh! Gargaj Singh Ji, I agree with your outlook...I do not intend to begin a name and shame campaign (in any event I'd place myself top of the list for the countless fallacies I commit on a daily basis), however the mention of Kala Afghana and others was and is simply used to indicate the height of the matter today...in terms of the impact this has had on the Panth in essentially what has only a short period of time... I am not intending to argue about sides here, however there is clearly more than meets the eye with this whole affair and level to which this has gone is worth mentioning to understand why it is necessary for us collectively to remain vigilant about such matters and not simply leave matters to the so called "5 High Priests" of the Akal Thakt... As per the responses to Lalleshwari's comments regarding the denial of the Raag Mala, without getting involved with any particular Jathibandee (again, as Khalsa Soulja earlier pointed out, this issue is not limited to just one group), the key flux of Lalleshwari's comments, insofar as my 'personal' understanding, really goes back to the matters arising with Babu Teja Singh Bhasauria, who with the backing of the incumbant rulers amongst other things reduced the Sri Guru down to 200 or so pages. This scenario has continued to prevail with the numerous other Babas we have seen over the past 50 years across Punjab and the Diaspora... For me, ***This is the issue*** Regardless of motives, denial or removal of the any part of the Sri Guru is simply Manmat and equivalent to silencing the tongue of the Sri Guru:- jae ko gur thae vaemukh hovai bin sathigur mukath n paavai || One who turns away from the Guru, and becomes baymukh - without the True Guru, and shall not find liberation. [Anand Sahib, Guru Amar Das Ji] Whilst the Panth has been active in responding to such matters in the past, the length of time taken to resolve the recent Kala Afghana affair cannot be overlooked. The ban on discussing the Dasam Granth has now been in force for 3 years with next to nothing in the way of any progress statements from the Akal Thakt. We can ban tables and chairs in Gurdwaras, cover up historical murals with green bathroom tiles, add more Gold to the Harimandir Sahib, have a chappati-making machines installed in the Langar...even provide our '5 High Priests' with luxury cars, but have yet to reinstate our faith in Bani. Issues such as the denial of Raag Mala, Bhagat Bani, Dasam Granth and the abuse of power by the modern day 'mahants' is what leads to this state and if allowed to continue, the possbility of the 200 page Granth Sahib will arise again. With all this said and done, I again conclude that 'we' look to our common goals and expand upon them and essentially agree to disagree elsewhere provided we follow the basic hukam of our Gurus...easier said than done I agree...but nothing is too much for Akal Purakh Ki Faaj...so let's quit worrying about the RSS, VHP or other supposed threats, agreed they exist, but let's be honest Khalsa is here to stay FOREVER and in addition to defending the Panth, it's equally crucial that we have a united panth [note 'united', not identical, we are not clones!] Please forgive any foolish comments in the foregoing, GUR BAR AKAAAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 12, 2003 Report Share Posted October 12, 2003 i appreciate your views but it was not babu teja singh who started the ragmalla thing. the entire issue has gone on for many many years before nad is not related. also remember that babu teja singh is not an olden day kala afgana - panch khand was original a respectable institution, he just lost it totally a bit later! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted October 13, 2003 Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 i appreciate your views but it was not babu teja singh who started the ragmalla thing. the entire issue has gone on for many many years before nad is not related. also remember that babu teja singh is not an olden day kala afgana - panch khand was original a respectable institution, he just lost it totally a bit later! GUR FATEH! Khalsa Soulja Ji, thanks for the response and kind sentiment. I note that Babu Teja Singh is not the one who started the Raag Mala issue, the point I wish to convey is not Babu Teja Singh, but the fact that one man, who as you say, was part of a 'respectable' institution, backed by the incumbent political power of the day...ended up publishing 200 page Granths for sale -total disrespect, dishonour and degrading prostitution of the values of our Guru Ji, our Shaheeds et al...all this arose from in amongst the Raag Mala denial. The point being, it's not as simple as we 'honestly' don't believe Raag Mala is Gurbani, but hey that's fine since we believe in the rest of it versus the likes of Kala Afghana being really bad since he doubts a whole lot more... 'faith' in the Sri Guru means total faith in Guru Ji ...Doubt is doubt, whether small or big... Nihang Gargaj Singh was correct for reprimanding me on the matter of mentioning names, as this often does lead to finger pointing and labelling, which is not my intention here. As previously stated, I used the examples of Babu Teja Singh and Kala Afghana simply by way of example as these are two key issues here. Again, I ask forgiveness for any foolishness on my part and as ever remain the charandhoor of the Sadh Sangat... GUR BAR AKAAAAL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 13, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 13, 2003 When Babu Teja Singh (if you can call him a singh) was dying Bhai Randhir Singh refused to go and see him on his deathbed.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 lol ummmm no mate!! if you go to an akj amrit sanchaar they DO NOT say to you you cannot read raagmala.... agreed their are members of AKJ sangat who do not believe it...but there are those that do believe it equally... Akj dont care for politics...they are a kirtani jatha and nothing more, not a political group, nt a business but just a kirtani jatha... vahiguroo ji ka khalsa vahiguroo ji ki fateh!! Jassa Pyaareo, gurfateh! ok, may i ask you.. after last year's July Toronto samagam, i went onto the Jatha board at akj.org, and i saw someone complaining about how some baba "MADE" them read raagmala at the end of the akhand paath? yet you say that they don't say yoiu can't at amrit sanchaar...or that some do and some don't...yet every post made after that agreed that it was a "shame" that they had to read raagmala. as far as raagmaala goes... if you don't read it, you're putting your own 'mat' higher than guru's 'mat', therefore manmat over gurmat, as raagmala is present in our Guru Sahib whom we follow and look to for guidance today. If it's not baani, then you can always ask for forgiveness, assuming you read it.. but what if you don't read it, and it IS baani... then you can't even ask for forgiveness, because Guru is already telling you to read it, and you put your own reasons above His.... about the comment on policy.. why is it that whenever i have a one on one conversation with someone from the jatha, they bash another jatha for THEIR policy.. i don't mean this as disrespect, but only as what i see it to be, and trust me i know alot more than the average jaswant... it looks like a business... despite the fact they do alot of kamaee... their actions are those of a business... no disrespect is meant, just that they should consider changing the way they do some things, because anyone can say it's 100% into sikhi, but so many people know it's not. fateh! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 ive got nutthin against AKJers apart from the fact that they dont beleive in ragmaala.... everything else such as sarbloh bibek or keski as kakar is up to them, but doubting guru ji is definitly wrong people cannot even explain the full meaning of "ek o-unkar".... the first akhars on the first ang of sri guru granth sahib ji, but they are ready to argue over the last ang... personally ive learnt not to get into this with anyone who associates themselves with AKJ cos they get agressive :roll: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 u cant blame the jatha for not believing ragmalla since old birs have huge amounts of added stuff, do we believe that too? is it the bir banno bir (sp?) that has all the mahallas changed etc? there are even differences between the kartarpuri bir and the damdama bir on stuff that hasnt changed? some old birs dont contain ragmalla? the argument either way is so evenly matched that the akal takht have said do whatever u like? it would be a different matter if the issue of ragmalla was like japji sahib and it was obvious it was part of the guru granth. the fact that many birs have extra shabads and we dont read them....does that mean we have lost faith in guruji? no one has actually touched these questions yet....the fact is that there is plenty of stuff that has been interpolated into sikh history.....nothing is black and white.....you cant just say "if you read ragmalla you are good if you dont you are bad"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 no one has actually touched these questions yet....the fact is that there is plenty of stuff that has been interpolated into sikh history.....nothing is black and white.....you cant just say "if you read ragmalla you are good if you dont you are bad"...... Ks, Its not about good or bad. Its about having faith in gurbani. Just imagine akj as in jatha who claims to respect sggs ji soo much. Indeed cutting an ang of guroo sahiban by disregarding ragmalla bani of guroo arjan dev ji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 just read what i wrote above that and u will see why it is debateable whether we are cuttin an ang out or not. im repeating again...there are LOADS of old birs with extra material....are we cutting out stuff if we dont read them? just as there are old birs with ragmalla..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 my question is this... as was done with dasam granth, a council was formed to take out anything that didn't seem to be baani.. was the same not done for Guru Granth Sahib? why is it that it's okay to read anything else that's been deemed baani, but not that last little page. True... there was alotta stuff extra in old birs.. but if there's a bir found, which there is..., that has the signature of Guru Gobind Singh, after the final "publishing" was done.... so who're we, exactly, to disregard that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted October 15, 2003 Report Share Posted October 15, 2003 that council eliminated those texts because it threatened their ideology. Ugardanti is still recited by Nirmala and Nihang who have an unbroken parampara going back to Guru Gobind SIngh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 the kartarpuri bir has signatures of the same person done in different styles...........hahaha.......so how r we meant to do that jsb? there will always be loads of controversy.....its unavoidable.....triyah charitrer has gurus signatures but it is doubted.....hakayat has no signatures but it is in an old bir......so what do we do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted October 16, 2003 Report Share Posted October 16, 2003 1.Charitropakhyan contains autobiographical material concerning Guru Gobind Singh see Anup Kaur' sakhi and Rup Kaur's sakhi. This is again reciprocated and confirmed by Chaupa Singh Rahitnama. 2. Chaupai Sahib is from Charitropakhyan: if you doubt Charitropakhyan this means you doubt Chaupai Sahib. But anyway AKJ and SGPC have shortened the text already which makes them Ram Rae and hence part of the panj mel hence I am not going to waste time with such people as they are not part of Guru Gobind SIngh's Panth. 3. Issue of Ragmala was started by the British to divide the Panth, seems they acheived their aim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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