Gupt Singh Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 no, you are confused. i havent stated that i dont believe in triyah chariter. a while ago i was arguing for it. i used it for the sake of argument. and no the brits did not start the debate over the ragmalla. some of your favourite historical texts, i think kavi santokh singhs one, might be filled with alot of dodgy stuff, but it also says ragmalla is fake. regardless of the dodginess of the author and book, it shows the debate has gone on for a while. plus the fact that many birs dont have ragmalla in it, and many that do have kacchi bani like rattan malla......lallehsvari do u believe in rattan malla? if not, why not? why dont u believe other kacchi bani at the end of the old birs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hari Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 Check out: http://www.damdamitaksal.org/ If you click on Gurmat Vichar, you get Damdami article on Raag Mala.This is what they say about Kavi Santokh Singh: Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji The next person is Bhai Santokh Singh who wrote in Sooraj Parkash: "Raag Maala is not the composition of the Satguru, Mundavani is kept at the end of the Granth Sahib as the Closing Seal." He wrote this in Pauri number 40. The last lines of this pauris claim that Guru Ji himself did not write Raag Maala and it was added by some other Sikhs afterwards. First of all, he was a human being just like us so whatever he says is not a command of God. Every human being makes mistakes. As Gurbani says only the true Guru never makes mistakes. All others make mistakes. Even though Bhai Sahib spent most of his lifetime in writing Historical Granth but that doesn't mean everything he wrote is the truth. For example he wrote in Sooraj Parkash that Guru HarGobind Ji became afflicted with Seetla (Smallpox) and Mata Ganga Ji took Guru Ji to Durgiana Mandir (Hindu Temple) to please Seetla Goddess. But Guru Arjan Dev Ji says in Gurbani that his son got well because of God's grace. The Divine Guru has opened his eyes. Doubt has been dispelled; my service has been successful. || 1 || Pause || The Giver of joy has saved him from smallpox. The Supreme Lord God has granted His Grace. (Page 200) It clearly shows that Guru Ji prayed only to the One True God and denounced all Hindu gods and goddesses. Just like this Santokh Singh described Guru Gobind Singh with his ears pierced and wearing big ear rings. This is described in Rit 1, Ansoo 12, Pauri 7-8. But if we read Guru Gobind Singh Ji's Gurbani we find that Guru Ji is totally against it. Guru Ji said: "Na Jatta Sees Dharehon, Na Mundarka Sudharehon." Then in Rit 1, Ansoo 13 Bhai Sahib writes about Guru Ji's wedding that Guru Ji took rounds around fire and Hindu God Ganesha was worshipped as well as nine planets. This is totally wrong because Guru Nanak Dev Ji took rounds around Mool Mantra and rejected the idea of Hinduism. Guru Ramdas Ji composed Lavan to be read at weding in Raag Suhi. Guru Gobind Singh Ji said: "I do not accept Ganesha as important. I do not meditate on Krishna, neither on Vishnu. I do not hear them and do not recognize them. My love is with the Lotus feet of God. He is my protector, the Supreme Lord. I am dust of his Lotus feet." (Guru Gobind Singh) This is basic concrete proof that it was important to Guru Ji to mention that we are not to worship these deities and that he didn't. How can Bhai Santokh Singh say Guru Ji worshipped Ganesha when he didn't believe in them? He can't! I am not trying to make Bhai Santokh Singh Ji seem bad. He was a great Sikh writer but we should not forget that every human being makes mistakes. He did not provide any proof of his hypothesis such as names of the people who added Raag Maala; the place and date or anything like that. He himself wrote that if Raag Maala is not Gurbani then he doesn't know who wrote Raag Maala which shows that he wrote it without doing any research. He wrote it because he was influenced by Sobha Singh and slipped in his opinion about Raag Maala. We as Sikhs shouldn't take these two or four lines of his and start fighting. We should trust Guru more than a human. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted October 18, 2003 Report Share Posted October 18, 2003 I don't question Ragmala and I don't debate it! Ragmala is part of Adi Guru Granth Sahib and soever doubts is not part of the Panth! whosoever changes bani is a Ram Raia. It's clear as cristal!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 19, 2003 Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 hari i did say that kavi santokh singh said dodgy stuff, but i also said his views prove the ragmalla argument wasnt an invention of the british but has gone on for a while. lalleshvari do u question the rattan mala if old bir contain it? dont quote me but i think that the kartarpuri bir MAY contain rattan mala. if it wasnt for the "evil british" singh sabhaists, its likely that rattan mala, falsely attributed to guru nanak, may still be in the granth today......do u believe in that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 19, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2003 "Raag ek sang panch bairangan....." Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Ji Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest kaur1699 Posted October 21, 2003 Report Share Posted October 21, 2003 Fateh Ji, Lets stick to the topic of the thread please, any topics of no relevance will be deleted. If you want to discuss something new please start another thread. Thanx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amrikingh Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 **applause** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 OOOOOOOO bikramjitsinghs got a good point there keep on discussing whatever ur discussing bt just tell me lalleshvari......do you believe in the RATTAN MALA or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 22, 2003 Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 bikramjit, you know ur stuff man!!! props 2 u! lalleshvari u still aint answered, do u believe in the rattan malla? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted October 22, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 22, 2003 As much as I'd love to see Lalleshvari rip your arguement to shreds.....can we please stick to the topic which is "Modern Ram Rae"...thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted October 23, 2003 Report Share Posted October 23, 2003 ok i think bikramjit singh has won now.............now.......lalleshvari.....ANSWER: :?: :?: DO YOU BELIEVE IN THE RATTAN MALLA? :?: :?: why/why not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted October 31, 2003 Report Share Posted October 31, 2003 Gur Fateh! Just to return to the topic of Modern Ram Rae [as per the Rattan Mala, this is an interesting topic, if everyone else agrees, can we start a new thread on this for clarity, so others can join in too?] As per the Raag Maala issue, please find below the comments from the SIKHNET moderators in response to a recently declined submission to a forum member who ask about Raag Maala: Your recent message titled Re: what is "Ragmala" ? is being returned to you for reasons given below. Please EDIT your message accordingly at the Discussion Forum website and resubmit. If you need to contact the Moderators (sikhnetmod@sikhnet.com) please make sure that you include this entire e-mail in your correspondence. Thanks. The SikhNet Discussion Moderators ==================================== Moderator's Note: Ragmala was not composed by the 5th Master. If you feel it was then please provide references. Also please review the following link or do a search on Ragmala. Thanks. http://www.sikhnet.com/sikhnet/discussion....0EEC3ABF87256D3 Sat Sri Akal! Raag Maala is a beautiful composition composed by Guru Arjan Dev Ji which occurs as the concluding chapter of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib. Whilst literally being a “rosary†of Raags, the composition has many a symbolic, spiritual and historical meanings if one seeks to look deeper into the shabds. I am not a scholar or otherwise, but as a Sikh I have full faith in my Guru Ji and hence whilst declining to comment further on the content of the Raag Maala at present (as I would advise, from my personal outlook, to look through the numerous Shabds that come before Raag Maala –as one would expect to study a conclusion before analysing the magnificent works that have lead to the close). The only final thing I would mention is that unfortunately, there are many in the Panth, who whilst professing to be Gurmukhs and representatives of the Panth, seek to misalign Gurbani through their mischievous and malicious manmat. Notwithstanding the ongoing dilemmas and issue surrounding the Dasam and Sarabloh Granths and rehitnamas, we also have people attacking Guru Maharaj directly; in addition to cutting short the Rehras, shortening the Nitnem Banis, we also have those who see fit to cut out Raag Maala from Maharaj, tantamount to cutting the tongue of the Guru. These are the Ram Raae, that the Punj Pyare inform us to remain clear of, when administering the Rehit during Amrit Sanchar. Please stay strong...we need it now more than ever...whilst I firmly believe in unity through diversity, let us remember that Guru Granth Sahib Maharaj is the central axis of “our†universe... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snigga Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 Nihang Garja Singh ZINDABAAAAAAAAAAAADDD.. First off all I have nothing against AKJ nor any other jathey bandi that do kirtan and encourage folks to follow the gurus' path, thus am 100% against those who discourage others from the reading of Sri Raag Maala. Firstly Rataan Mala and the other "dodgy stuff" is not contained in Kirtarpur Bir. Exactly who fabricates these lies? and why do people so blindly follow them? Sant Baba Kartaar Singh used to go around and do katha with sant Baba gurbachan Singh and they went to hundreds of pindhs and got darshan of a vast amounts of Guru Sahib dey Bir and in there sri raag malaa katha state that they are yet to have darshan of a bir which did not contain Sri Raag Malaa Sahib. In a recent discussion by an anti raag malaa group (who have been locally boycotted by AKJ Toronto) Khalsa Soulja pointed out to them that many supporters of Raag Malaa use the kirtarpur bir as support, to which these malicious individuals stated that the current Kirtarpur Bir is invalid, and that a copy has been made and kept in which raag malaa does not appear. So ALLLL of a sudden we are following a 'mystery' bir that has popped up (conviently) without raag malaa in it, amazing as to how we can call this one authentic. Now my main beef with those who claim Raag Malaa isn't bani is that they use the internet to fabricate and amplify their voice. They claim numerous birs exist in which raag mala is not present. This is totally FALSE. Birs without raag maala are scarce. For those of you who doubt this claim visit india YOUR SELF! stop letting these mahants twist your thoughts, visit india and go on a pilgrimage of sorts and get darshan of praatan birs, rather then follow Cyber Prechaaraks who have never sat on stage, never gone around to do prechaar, but will type up essays and press send on the true meanings of gurmat. On a side note to the admin in your last edit you wrote: Moderator's Note: Ragmala was not composed by the 5th Master. ote If you feel it was then please provide references. the points i can provide have probabbly been heard by you a million times over, why not provide refrences that raag maala is not the composition of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Ji, before boldly stating that point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 On a side note to the admin in your last edit you wrote: the points i can provide have probabbly been heard by you a million times over, why not provide refrences that raag maala is not the composition of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Sahib Ji, before boldly stating that point. Snigga Sahib! Gur Fateh! Thanks for your 'hard-hitting' post! OK, let's keep jathebandis and what not out of this as you say. Just to comment on your closing comments, the admin in question is not from SIKHAWARENESS but from WWW.SIKHNET.COM and I suggest that anyone who wishes to raise this matter write to them directly, since they appear to boycott my posts despite me having many friends in the associated organisation to which they belong...anyway...just wished to clarify matters... SAT SRI AKAAAAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tSingh Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 It's easier getting blood out of stone than it is getting a post on Sikhnet these days...I forget who their new moderator is these days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted November 4, 2003 Report Share Posted November 4, 2003 It's easier getting blood out of stone than it is getting a post on Sikhnet these days...I forget who their new moderator is these days. You're telling me!!! This is not the first time either...last time a query on the following article with regard to understanding the mantras, their origins and practice was met with a response that this is not a Sikh organisation!!! Can you believe it!!! Yet SikhNet are quite happy to advertise and offer such mantra recordings in their Gurbani section!!! http://www.susankezios.com/Information/Man...%20Sadhanna.htm Can anyone here explain to me the meaning of "Ra Ma Da Sa, Sa Se So Hung"???? GUR BAR AKAAAAAL!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sukha Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 "raag ek sang panch bairangan..." DHAN GURU ARJAN DEV JI AKAAAL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 snigga have you actually seen the kartarpuri bir? it has blank pages all over it has torn out pages it has crossings out of shabads miswritten and corrected alot of the authors (mahallas) dont even match the damdami bir (ie the one we use today) the above are a FACT......whether or not it definately contains rattan malla i will have to find out....but the above are definately a FACT. is this the work of guru arjun? MAHAN KOSH does describe a kartarpuri bir. and it doesnt match the one we have today! rattan malla, even RECIPIES appear in old birs. its a FACT. loads of birs have extra material. why cant you accept this? can you prove it to me otherwise? can you explain why the rags in ragmalla and SGGS dont match up? why the grammar makes no sense? why the numbering system is wrong? for the top 2, no one has ever explained. for hte last question, weak explanations have been given. all of gurbani is 100percent infallable. and for some strange reason, ragmalla doesnt stand up to this. why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted November 6, 2003 Report Share Posted November 6, 2003 can you explain why the rags in ragmalla and SGGS dont match up? why the grammar makes no sense? why the numbering system is wrong? for the top 2, no one has ever explained. for hte last question, weak explanations have been given. all of gurbani is 100percent infallable. and for some strange reason, ragmalla doesnt stand up to this. why? Sardar Bahadur Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Khalsa Soulja Sahib Ji!!! Vaheguru Jee Ka Khalsa! Vaheguru Jee Kee Fateh!!! I'm not a scholar or even that smart (!), so I'll only present the following links in relation to the above points: have you actually seen the kartarpuri bir? see http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm.../kartarpuri.jpg for photo and also http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagmaala/old_birs.htm in relation to your other points on the Kartarpuri Bir can you explain why the rags in ragmalla and SGGS dont match up? http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...siri_bhairo.htm and also http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...ajh_tukhari.htm why the grammar makes no sense? http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...o%20mahalla.htm why the numbering system is wrong? http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...e_numbering.htm There are more links on the site which provide a full account of Raag Maalaa assessing all the critiques thrown at it from Bhai Santokh Singh, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and all in between...apologies if you've already seen this or if these are "weak explanations" for you, but I hope this alleviates some of your Doubt in the Sri Guru of the Sikhs. GUR BAR AKAAAAAL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snigga Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 KDiddy, Now before you go and post "I've seen those links numerous times, and have discussed them with many CK Gurmukhs belonging to ..." we all now the site and the place, go check the bir out for yourself before you start spitting it as facts.... I'm assuming you can read gurmukhi read the Arth Sant Giani Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji wrote up and are published on the same site, and before you post "The arth composed by Sant Giani Gurbachan Singh Ji are messed up because they contain numerous grammatical errors", do me the favour of pointing out the errors ahead of time, please and thank you.. Quick question, Bani = Guru Disowning Bani = Disowning Guru ??? Nah, I'm joking I know I'm getting a little extreme with that example, because its not like those who neglect raag mala neglect the 1429 ang before it, heck its only :roll: (1/1429 x 100) = .07 % ---> 0.1% of Sri Guru Granth Sahib, so they should be all right?? :shock: RIGHT?!?!?!? Hope I didn't hurt any feelings, God Bless you all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted November 7, 2003 Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 I am undecided on the Raag Maala. As with all controversaries amongst Sikhs this could easily be sorted out by getting scholars of Gurbani and Sikh history together and let them check each and every argument for and against and in the end give a judgement binding on all. Presently we have an impasse, the pro-lobby brings out some facts for the Raag maala and the anti-lobby counter this. This has been going on and on for decades. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nihang Gargaj Singh Posted November 7, 2003 Author Report Share Posted November 7, 2003 the recipies for ink are normally included in puraatan granths...wots ure point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 I am undecided on the Raag Maala. As with all controversaries amongst Sikhs this could easily be sorted out by getting scholars of Gurbani and Sikh history together and let them check each and every argument for and against and in the end give a judgement binding on all. Presently we have an impasse, the pro-lobby brings out some facts for the Raag maala and the anti-lobby counter this. This has been going on and on for decades. Sardar Bikramjit Singh Ji, I for a long time was in a similar state of mind for a while at a time when I was getting close to AKJ sangats through friends, however having assessed the matter further, whilst many argue that the counter arguements provided by the Pro-Raagmala groups may be lacking in some form, for me it boiled down to a decision that the recitation of Raagmala is a must, if it turns out to not to be Gurbani, then fair enough, I'll repent upon my ignorance of faith, however in denying it and aggresively opposing its recitation, should it turn out to be Gurbani then I've sufferred at the hands of my ego and effectively 'silenced' or pulled out the tongue of the Sri Guru... What I would be interested to know is if someone can provide me the works of the poet Alam (links etc), who is supposedly meant to written the composition as the Anti-Raagmala proponents claim. GUR FATEH! http://www.akj.org.uk/faq/#9 Raagmala is a small composition which appears on the final page of most Saroops of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Along with other organisations and scholars, we believe that Raagmala is not Gurbani, but was added to Guru Granth Sahib at a later date. The Raagmala was not part of the original Bir compiled by Sahib Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji, neither was it part of the Damdami Bir. It was composed by a poet named Alam, a contemporary of Emperor Akbar - in the year 991 Hijri or Bikrami 1641 - about 20 years before the compilation of Sahib Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. http://www.akj.org.uk/literature/article.a...gurmat&f=srm04d "A Muhammadan poet called Alam in AH 991 (AD. 1583) wrote a work in 353 stanzas, generally from four to six lines each, called Madhava Nal Kandala. The Raga Mala, which forms the conclusion of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib and contains a list of the raags and raaginis and their subdivisions, is a portion of Alam's work extending from 63rd to 72nd stanza. It is not understood how it was included in the Sacred volume. The Raags mentioned in it do not correspond with the Raags of the Granth Sahib." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gupt Singh Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 thanks for ur stuff niranjana. 2 b honest at times i have beleieved in ragmalla, then not, but now im pretty sure i dont. Sardar Bahadur Singh Sahib Bhai Sahib Khalsa Soulja Sahib Ji!!! im nt a singh yet. still non amritdhari have you actually seen the kartarpuri bir? see http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm.../kartarpuri.jpg for photo and also http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagmaala/old_birs.htm in relation to your other points on the Kartarpuri Bir now im no scholar or super clever image analyser either, but thats one page, and there are other pages written more dodgily. i believe that mcleod (yes i know hes white and i know his views arent always right but he has good pointa) and a fair few other people have spoken about the kartarpuri bir. http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...siri_bhairo.htm and also http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...ajh_tukhari.htm that alleiviates like 1 or 2 of the rags (the first link explained why the 1st one is the first one) but the rest still make no sense at all. http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...o%20mahalla.htm even baba jarnail singh bhindranwale admitted he doesnt understand the grammar in ragmalla. that link was interesting but it doesnt explain why singular words are used when they should be plural. guru arjun was a poet inspired by god, he wouldnt make mistakes like "i went to school and saw lots of person" http://www.damdamitaksal.org/vichaar/raagm...e_numbering.htm again that link was interesting but you see that in every circumstance (nearly) the 1 comes before a rahao - ive had a quick scan thru the SGGS on my pc and it seems that a 1 always comes before a rahao. in ragmalla there is no rahao BUT there are still 1s everywhere. the accounts above it.....hmm.....gurbilas was written by guru hargobind? doesnt gurbilas say that a spirit made guru arjuns wife pregnant? and alot of other weird things like that? the one thing that most people agree with kala afgana on, is that gurbilas is not the most reliable of books.....theyve edited it numerous times....and to be honest ive got no idea what shaheed bilas is so i cant comment on it. maybe u can enlightenme. There are more links on the site which provide a full account of Raag Maalaa assessing all the critiques thrown at it from Bhai Santokh Singh, Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh to Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha and all in between...apologies if you've already seen this or if these are "weak explanations" for you, but I hope this alleviates some of your Doubt in the Sri Guru of the Sikhs. thanks......they were nice links but ive read them all before and even the explanation by one of the taksali jathedars on the ragmalla on the spiritual meanings of ragmalla......i didnt understand it quite so i got someone else to translate it for me and even they admit that the spiritual meanings arent exactly solid. its not a question of me doubting the guru granth sahib........but u have to realise that old birs have ALOT of other stuff in them........its not like we are questioning japji sahib, its like the index to the guru granth and until anyone can point out a real solid spiritual meaning its presence will always be doubted.....and quite how this ragmalla managed to appear in alams kaam filled book done before the guru granth still confuses me (not talking about the alam in guru gobind singhs court :? as an interesting side note, guru gobind singh adapted one of alams stories, kaam kandlan, which has ragmalla at the end, for triyah charitrer (thats if it is gurbani)...which shows that he did live before that time. the damdami taksal article i believe has confused alam in gurus court to a previous alam who wrote for akhbar. the author of the website says that alam copied guru gobind singh, because guru ji would never "copy" anyone else, but i was always under the impression that gurujis 404 stories were an amalgamation of many different stories of the time (some were his) and were not meant to be all totally new stories....they all come from different sources. i could be wrong tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BikramjitSingh Posted November 8, 2003 Report Share Posted November 8, 2003 Khalsa Soulja If you want to study the Kartarpuri Bir further there are two books available on it The Authenticity of the Kartarpuri Bir by Daljeet Singh Kartarpuri Bir de darshan by Jodh Singh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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