challenge_everything Posted March 20, 2004 Report Share Posted March 20, 2004 Guru pyare khalsa ji the raagmala debate was ended when Giani Soba Singh first accused Raagmala of not being gurbani. This Giani Soba Singh was said to have been paid off by Christian missionaries in order to create a divide in the Panth. Soba Singh even convinced Kavi Bhai Santokh Singh Ji to write, “Raagmal Siri Gur Kee Krit Neh Hai†(Raagmala is not the work of the Guru) Soba Singh wrote a Saroop of Siri Guru Granth Sahib without including raagmala. He brought this saroop to Akal Takhat Sahib and started saying that raagmala should be removed from all saroops of Guru Granth Sahib Ji. There were many great men gathered at Akaal Takhat Sahib at that point such as Granthi Javahar Singh, Bhai Bhagat Singh, Bhai Divan Singh, Thakur Dyaal Singh, and many other Udasi and Nirmala saints and scholars. They all decided that an ardas should be done to resolve the issue of the Raagmala’s authenticity. The Panj Pyare arrived, they did Ardas and said that if Giani Soba Singh was correct in saying Raagmala is false may he remain fit and healthy, if on the other hand he was lying may he be struck down with a painful illness in the space of a year. Low behold!!! Giani Soba Singh’s tongue was infected with small insects that ate away at Soba Singh’s tongue. The Giani was in excruciating pain and wrote on paper himself that he was sorry and that he now believed whole-heartedly in the Raagmala. He was taken to Darbar Sahib in order to repent his mistake and even recorded his mistake in the diary at Siri Darbar Sahib. From that day forward there was no reason for anyone else to accuse the Raagmala of not being Gurbani… Guru Pyario why keep raking over an issue that the Guru Granth and the Khalsa Panth has resolved? Akaal hee Akaal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niranjana Posted March 21, 2004 Report Share Posted March 21, 2004 Gur Fateh! This is the "wanna-be-humble" Niranjana, notwithstanding Khalsa Soulja's banned status, I would be grateful if anyone can provide to me a link or otherwise to the original supposed source of the Raagmala -yes, prior to KS's post I am fully aware that it is contested to have been taken from Kam Kandlan by the Poet Alam. My question was and is, where can we find this item? Surpringly, the majority of anti-Raagmala purporters have pretty big websites, would it be that hard to authentic this claim? Has anyone from either the pro-or-anti claim seen this works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 Interestingly enough Bhai Santokh Singh whilst saying that it is not Guru's work does not state that it is not part of Adi Guru Granth Sahib. Even if he was right it would have the status of Bhagat Bani and would still be part of Adi Guru Granth Sahib and thus should be read as such!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
challenge_everything Posted March 22, 2004 Report Share Posted March 22, 2004 excllent comment lalleshvari! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khalsa Soldier Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 Gyani Gurdit Singhs book on Ragmalla explains all. Alam was not a Bhagat or remotely spiritual. He wrote erotic liturature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted March 24, 2004 Report Share Posted March 24, 2004 Khalsa Soldier, If you trying to imply that ragmalla is not gurbani. Here is little peace for you. source: gursikhijeevan.com Amazing Story Bhai Jeeta Singh used to be a Raagi that would accompany Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Ji. One time in Lahore, there was a Muslim Smagam for Raags. He, being a Raagi himself, was really curious what the muslim Raag smagam would be like. After, listening to some of the program he went up to the organizers and asked for their permission to get some time to do keertan because he knew shabads in Raag. The muslims started laughing at him saying ?you Sikhs haven?t been blessed with Raag, go get out of here and go do what you typically do?and?.listen, we, muslims, are only blessed with Raag.? Bhai Jeeta Singh got so hurt, he went all depressed to Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh and said, ?Ji, today I got really embarassed.? Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh said to him, ?I want you for 40 days to stay in this room, food and clothes will be provided inside, for 40 days don?t leave this room and do 125,000 paats of Raag-Mala. Only after completing, this are you to come out? Bhai Jeeta Singh did so as Baba Ji said, and then when the time came for another smagam, he went again. And again He asked them for time, surprisingly the parbandak decided to give him 2 minutes of their smagam time. He got on stage and after touching some keys in Basant Raag, the Harmonium started to play by itself and continued playing for the rest of the shabad ! He was given only 2 minutes, however the Raag took 4 hours to complete (b/c of the rus of the keertan no one wanted him to stop him and listened in complete amazement and silence). The Muslims started saluting Bhai Jeeta Singh out loud at the smagam, and some came to him and said, that ?God has blessed you people with Raag? Sant Baba Gurbachan Singh Singh said ?You were victorious today on behalf the Sikh Panth, ask for anything you want.? He said, ?I do have one thing I really want, when my end comes, I want it to come while I am doing keertan.? Baba Ji said ?then that?s how it will be? The day Bhai Jeeta Singh left his body, he was sitting doing keertan in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji?s Hazoori. He was doing it so much love, he would lift his arm up affectionately, and while looking towards GuruJi he would recite ?jio bhaavai thio raakh lai? and at that moment Bhai Jeeta Singh left his body. Reference: JapJi Sahib Viakya - Giani Takhur Singh Ji Volume 22 (near the ending) JapJi Sahib Viakya - Giani Takhur Singh Ji Volume 23 (near the beginning) So Gurmukho, please forgive me for my crude translation job, I would prefer you hear it in the reference I gave you, it's available on gurmatveechar.com Also look for really good book: Publisher: Damdami Taksal Author: Bhai Jaswant Singh (Katha Vachick) Title: Ragmaala Gurbani Hai (Punjabi version only) *You can order it from Singh Brothers: http://www.singhbrothers.com/singhbrothers.htm Click on the link in the left hand column titled Catalogue (Author Wise) search Search under D Find Damdami Taksal (n click) Scroll down to Ragmalla Gurbani Hai There are a lot of other good books, so check m out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SAadmin Posted March 25, 2004 Report Share Posted March 25, 2004 Five groups of people who are not to be associated with source: http://www.damdamitaksal.com/lit_rehat_18.htm 1. Meene Satguru Ramdas ji disowned Prithia and called him Meena for having a needless enmity with Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji. Prithia’s descendants are those who once got a Brahmin to attempt to poison Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji, and sent a midwife with poison on her nipples to feed the young Guru. A snake charmer was also sent by Prithia and was told to release his snake on to Guru Sahib to try and kill him. These evil doers, the descendants of Prithia, are called Meene. 2. Masand In the name of Satguru, Masands collected money for Kar-Seva of Gurdwaras. But they begun to misuse the money for themselves. They became evil and started oppressing the Sikh Sangat, doing as they pleased. The tenth King/Guru freed the Sikh Sangat from these reptiles. Guru Sahib got hot syrup poured over them and they were burnt alive as punishment for their sins. Bhai Prehlad Singh ji states in his Rehatnama, "You are not to obey Masands, they will con the Sangat." 3. Ram Raieeay Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib ji’s eldest son Ram Rai had needless enmity with the eight and ninth Gurus and appointed his own Masands. He changed a line in the holy Gurbani just to please the Mughal emperor Aurangzeb, changing "Miti musalman ki…" (soil is of the muslim…) to "Meeti beyman ki…" (soil is of the deceitful…). The seventh Satguru discarded Ram Rai from the house of the Guru forever, because he altered Gurbani. Satguru said: "Those who do not fear and respect Gurbani, cannot be a Sikh of mine." (Sri Guru Partap Suraj Granth) No Sikh of the Guru’s is to associate with Ram Raieeay, nor is any offering to be made to them. Ramrai was told to leave and just go in the direction in which he was facing and he was told to never return, by Guru ji. Ramrai had no children. His followers started to call him ‘Guru’. The Khalsa should never associate/trust them. 4. Dhir Maleeay Dhir Mal, the elder brother of Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji, became an enemy of the seventh Guru and during the time of the sixth Guru he left Kartarpur for Kiratpur Sahib. Once there he set him self up as ‘Guru’. Upon the order of Guru Sahib, the Sikhs seized the ‘Chaur’ from Dhir Mal and threw him out of Kiratpur. Then again at the time of the ninth Guru, Dheer Mal again set up his own throne at Baba Bakala. He also got Sheehee Masand to try to shoot the ninth Guru Sahib. Those Sodhis from the Doab’s Kartarpur area are Dheer Mal’s descendants. It was out of these descendants that Vadbhag Singh was born. During the rule of the 12 Misls (Khalsa States), the governor of Jalandhur desecrated and burnt ‘Tham Sahib’. Vadbhag Singh was Amritdharee, being the first Amritdharee of the Dhir Mal clan. He was scared of the Mughal rulers so he didn’t go to inform the Singhs (living in the jungles), nor did he confront the rulers about the desecration of ‘Tham Sahib.’ At that time, the Singhs thought he had escaped to the mountains to escape persecution and practice black magic. The Dheer Mal clan is excommunicated and is not to be associated with by the Khalsa. 5. Gangu Shaheeay (and Hindaleeay) Gangu Shah, a Brahmin, handed over the Small Sahibzade/Princes to the Mughal Governor Vazir Khan, who bricked them alive. The disloyal descendants of this family are not to be associated with by the Khalsa. The Hindaleeay made alterations to the biography of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and had Sikhs arrested leading to their torture and deaths in jails. The descendants of Shehay Masand were the ones who attempted to shoot the ninth Guru and thus turned their backs on him. If any person out of the above five named groups takes Amrit from the Panj Pyare, lives according to the Rehat, accepts Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji as their Guru and have full faith in the Guru, they are to be considered a fellow brother/sister of the Khalsa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sikh_fauge Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 So is it true that akjs arent khalsa?? should they be shunned from the sikh panth?? ALOT of the sikhs i know are akjs..infact most sangat in the west are 'akj.' Views please! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Its not our job to decide who is khalsa or who is not. I gave you do and do not's from damdami taksaal. There are some who followed the above and some dont. If you look at it even akj is divided into sects and some beleive in ragmalla and some dont. Let guroo maharaj take care of them...but we should aware of those rules above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Javanmard Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 anyone who rejects or doubts gurbani is a Ram Raia. Those who reject Ragmala are certainly Ram Raie as well as those who reject Dasam Guru Granth Sahib. It's not us who decide who's Khalsa or not but certain essential criteria helps us identify those who objectively are and those who aren't! ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Moderator Note: This discussion is locked now and please start new topic, if you want to get clarification on something, which is not related to this discussion. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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